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Author: Subject: Please do not "play" with Organic Peroxides.
EnigmaBADGER
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[*] posted on 28-6-2013 at 14:31
Please do not "play" with Organic Peroxides.


Finished a batch of HMTD today, washed several times, basified with a sodium bicarb solution. 750mg in a plastic pill container detonates for no apparent reason. No external stimuli. I had been reaching around it to get a filter paper and it detonated. Deafened instantly, and a tickling sensation in my left hand and all over my right arm. I am currently bleeding from over one dozen wounds, none of which are serious. The moral of this story is, don't trust peroxides.
After so many successful batches, I had begun to trust the compound. Mistake. I am lucky that I never store my primaries and secondaries in the same location, or I may not be here today.

If any home experimenters are considering synthesizing these compounds, please do not. Stick with something safer. Never trust these compounds, ever. And please stay safe, never be lax in your safety precautions.

These are not stable compounds.

Enjoy your education, and stay safe.

(I should have some pictures of even what such a tiny amount can do, even when you aren't holding an object containing such a compound.
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[*] posted on 28-6-2013 at 17:38


Thank you for sharing, and I am sorry this happened to you. I hope you are ok. I would be worried about imbedded plastic and its migration. I am no doctor though. It's easy to become complacent with peroxides. There unpredictability can give the illusion of safety. Can't say we they didnt warn you though. Every competent post or bit of information on the subject points out the extreme sensitivity and risks of organic peroxides. Not to sound like an ass, only saying I hope any who would try and use an organic peroxide as an initiator in a larger charge should take note...

Best of luck to you friend, and I wish you a speedy recovery.

thanks for sharing.

[Edited on 29-6-2013 by Bot0nist]




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golfpro
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[*] posted on 28-6-2013 at 19:09


heatshock detonators
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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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[*] posted on 28-6-2013 at 22:33


Ahhh i hate sensitive stuffs, one of my friends lost his life to a chlorate mixture, which is not even that sensitive compared to those explosives.



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[*] posted on 28-6-2013 at 23:18


I don't trust even azide. I regularly hand press organic peroxides quite tough, but I do it with paper cylinder and with safety goggles, earphones and gloves. I kinda think it's god's job if they would go off.
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[*] posted on 28-6-2013 at 23:30


Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
I don't trust even azide. I regularly hand press organic peroxides quite tough, but I do it with paper cylinder and with safety goggles, earphones and gloves. I kinda think it's god's job if they would go off.

Why you don't trust lead azide ?
EnigmaBADGER :
Thanks for sharing

[Edited on 29-6-2013 by gamez34]
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 00:35


Because I'm aware of my level of incompetency. Now I've once made a batch that was so insensitive, when you burn it with open flame, it begins to crack all over the sample, when finally after already two seconds it detonates. This means if some devil decomposes for example one very small crystal azide, the whole thing is unlikely to go off. I also have the feeling(for now) that pure azide is both flame sensitive and with very small critical diameter, making it extremely potent primary.
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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 01:53


I have about the same amount lazily sitting in a plastic specimen jar too, which i think that i may just have to dispose of this is a sign! Previously I also have made quite a few batches of HMTD, all without a problem and every time i'm doing so little horror stories like these ones pop into my head. Even sometimes while at work i think about it going off like yours- for no reason. I once have got rid of most of a large batch (3-4g) before because it caused me to worry about it going off... Recently i got hold of some calcium carbide to make silver acetylide double salts, it's not as unstable but a tad more sensitive.



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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 02:17


Quote:
Finished a batch of HMTD today, washed several times, basified with a sodium bicarb solution.

'Sorry to hear about your accident EB.
HMTD shouldn't detonate without some stimulus!
Plain water is sufficient for washing and adding NaHCO3 may have affected stability . . .




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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 03:23


Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
Because I'm aware of my level of incompetency. Now I've once made a batch that was so insensitive, when you burn it with open flame, it begins to crack all over the sample, when finally after already two seconds it detonates. This means if some devil decomposes for example one very small crystal azide, the whole thing is unlikely to go off. I also have the feeling(for now) that pure azide is both flame sensitive and with very small critical diameter, making it extremely potent primary.

hmm How much percent pure sodium azide used ?
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golfpro
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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 07:09


did you leave sodium bicarb on the product? I never used sodium bicarb in rinsing HMTD
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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 08:07


Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse  
Recently i got hold of some calcium carbide to make silver acetylide double salts, it's not as unstable but a tad more sensitive.


With all the testing I have done SA*DS is far less sensitive than HMTD, sure it will detonate in any amount with no deflagration but that doesn't mean it's more sensitive. It's rather hard to make it go off by friction, and I have to really hit it with a hammer as well. HMTD goes off no problem by either of those. I haven't been able to harness static electricity to direct onto the compound yet for testing.

Also, I don't use calcium carbide because it is so dirty and makes a dark gray end product; If you ever looked at the wiki page you'll see a dark gray silver acetylide, that was obviously made from CaC2.

I use bottled acetylene and I get a clean white product. I would imagine that cleaner compounds will be less sensitive.




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killswitch
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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 10:50


HMTD is a bad choice. It has one of the highest friction sensitivities of any compound. Only contact explosives like Armstrong's mixture are worse.
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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 10:51


interesting.. please make sure you rinse your wounds properly if this isnt already too long time ago for it having any effect, ive been waiting to hear an such 'meaningless' type accident with the infamous peroxides

could you point out the whole synthesis? i am of the belief that nothing happens for no reason at all, even things you perhaps shouldnt have done or deviated from the standard procedure

hope you dont have permanent injuries by this, but it would be a immesive help in understanding peroxides if you could write up how you did this with exact materials and all, one thing that has come by mind mind aswell as others on here, was that you didnt write whether you washed it or not after the NaHCO3, in which could have left it slightly basic




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
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VladimirLem
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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 10:51


...well...peroxides are dangerous as fuck but ...ive got an batch of around 0.5g stored around a half year in my fridge and nothing happens or even detonates...
i heared that HMTD is really sensible to chemical influences...maybe the sodium bicarbonate is the reason for your "poroblem"?


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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 11:02


Quote: Originally posted by EnigmaBADGER  
Finished a batch of HMTD today, washed several times, basified with a sodium bicarb solution. 750mg in a plastic pill container detonates for no apparent reason....

These are not stable compounds.

Enjoy your education, and stay safe.



How on Earth can you safely dispose of such a substance?
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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 11:07


^ To dispose I would say wet it first and formost, then put it into a big bucket of cold water and stir it around very good.
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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 11:07


Doubtful that the bicarb is the problem. I've used it to neutralize all the peroxides I've made, and I've made many unusual ones. I like that it just releases CO2 so most of the byproducts of neutralization are just released into the atmosphere.

I have basified AP and it seemed that the residual bicarb actually desensitized it. I admit that I haven't made HMTD just because it didn't interest me, but I have made a dozen other peroxides including sodium peracetate and simple peroxyacetic acid, so I do have experience. I've lost interest expect perhaps as an initiator in a pinch.

When terrorists take me hostage I'll make some up and blast my way to freedom, for now though, I'll pass
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papaya
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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 12:32


As of peroxides one advantage of TATP is that it can be stored as a acetone solution without any danger (and I believe in any quantity) and when needed just pour some of it into water and dry. How this idea seems to you?
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[*] posted on 29-6-2013 at 20:14


The container had an airtight seal. Is it possible that decomposition could have allowed for pressure to build that would have caused it to detonate?

Needless to say, I'm taking a break from energetics.

I'm most likely going to have to live with a few small pieces of plastic in me for the rest of my life, but I got the majority out.

EDIT: I would like to add when I'm HANDLING these substances I wear proper safety equipment, gloves and face protection, but I was completely unsuspecting of such a random detonation.

[Edited on 30-6-2013 by EnigmaBADGER]
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[*] posted on 30-6-2013 at 01:50


hope you recover well and don't let this deter you too much. energetics are a pretty neat and unique hobby and it would be a shame to let this throw you off it completely.:)



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[*] posted on 30-6-2013 at 06:25


Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is a nice alternative to TATP and HMTD. As a liquid, it is extremely difficult to detonate unless confined. Condensation under the lid of the container will just drop back down.

Adsorbing it to nitrocellulose makes for a very powerful initiator for such cheap components.
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[*] posted on 30-6-2013 at 06:35


Liquid primary? You're joking? This will be clumsy as NEPD but still dangerous.
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[*] posted on 30-6-2013 at 14:43


Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is a nice alternative to TATP and HMTD. As a liquid, it is extremely difficult to detonate unless confined. Condensation under the lid of the container will just drop back down.

Adsorbing it to nitrocellulose makes for a very powerful initiator for such cheap components.



MEKP has one major fault here. IT IS AN ORGANIC PEROXIDE. Just because a compound is a liquid that does not desensitize it any way, or make it more difficult to detonate. Anhydrous nitroglycerin is very dangerous, yet is a liquid.
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[*] posted on 30-6-2013 at 18:03


Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is a nice alternative to TATP and HMTD.
...
Adsorbing it to nitrocellulose makes for a very powerful initiator for such cheap components.

If this is based off my post many years ago in the MEKP thread, please know, that while the MEPK did dissolve the NC, and it did detonate at high velocity as far as I can tell, more testing is needed to confirm whether it has the ability to initiate as a reliale primary, and it is still definatly as dangerous and unpredictable as any other organic peroxide.




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