wardy940
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is it potassium perchlorate?
hi all. ive recently just bought some potassium perchlorate and i thought id try the chlorate and sugar reaction but with perchlorate. So i mixed 10g
of sugar and 25g of perchlorate and then put a couple of drops of sulfuric acid in the mix to get it going and nothing happened there was a little
wisp of smoke and then it started to turn black from reacting with sugar. Why didnt this work does sulfuric acid not work in this reaction or is it
duff perchlorate. I bought it from oliverbrown.co.uk and ive seen a video with same ratio but set of with a BBQ lighter as i dont have one i cant
try this. Any suggestions?
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woelen
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Potassium perchlorate is not nearly as reactive as potassium chlorate. Ignition with a drop of H2SO4 usually does not work with perchlorate. You
really need to light the mix and even that is not trivial in some cases (e.g. I once made a mix of sulphur and KClO4 and I found it quite hard to
ignite the mix and get it going). You can ignite the mix, using a fuse, which you stick into the heap of powdered sugar and KClO4. Light the fuse, and
step back. This should light the mix. You also should be able to light the mix with a propane torch, but I would not feel comfortable with that if you
use 25 grams. I prefer the fuse such that I can take some distance once the pile of material starts burning.
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wardy940
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this is exactly the answer I wanted thanks. I wish I would of ordered chlorate now. Ive got some visco fuse im going to try that out see if it gets it
going.
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woelen
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It is good that you have perchlorate. These are much safer and these are very hard to make at home. Chlorate on the other hand can be made fairly
easily in kilo quantities from potassium chloride (diet salt). Just look up the term "chlorate cell" or "MMO anode" and you'll find lots of
information.
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wardy940
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yeahh i suppose its good i have it for when i need it i was struggling to find some online. Ive seen some videos on chlorate cells but what put me of
having a go was that i thought i needed a platinum anode. Could it be done with a MMO anode? I recently found a article on making an xbox 360 power
supply for lab use so i could use that.
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Fantasma4500
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you could try to drag out some KClO3 from matches, this can be made relatively pure, then compare it with sugar as per ignition temperature and such..
if you have KClO3 you dont want to add in sulfur at all!!
with KClO4 its do-able, but i wouldnt feel safe adding +2% sulfur to it anyways, although i do sentisize my KClO4 mixtures with Fe2O3, C and S
KClO3 is less energetic, as it has less oxygen atoms per full molecule of in this case KClO3, where KClO4 should be more violent when you get it going
i will test out the 'reactivity' of KClO3 vs. KClO4, but this isnt something you do in a lab
KClO3 should need less initiation energy, as its more unstable
anyhow, why did you doubt that it was KClO4?
for power supply you might want to take a computer power supply, for a small amperage you take the ends off the black and the red, then bundle all the
wires in respective colour together, connect to the respective electrodes, and also connect the green and.. brown wires? dont take my words for this,
look it up, this will start it up
seemingly it can keep being pretty hot if you start out with a hot KCl solution, also higher amperage
not to mention there are threads on this
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woelen
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I made a miniature cell and used this to make appr. 250 grams of KClO3 and appr. 140 grams of CsClO3:
http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/miniature_ch...
It works very well and the MMO anode is not that expensive and you can use it many many times to make KClO3. Making KClO4 is not possible with this.
Personally I think that KClO3 should have no place in pyrotechnics. I use the KClO3 for nice little demos (e.g. for kids) and for the rest it is used
in aqueous chemistry (pyrotechnics is forbidden where I live, I do not do that at all). KClO4 is MUCH more safe, even in combination with sulphur it
can be used "safely" (of course safety is a relative concept when one speaks about pyrotechnics).
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wardy940
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Thanks for all the information.I doubted it because I was sure H2SO4 would set it of. I was wrong ha. I'm only very amatuer and am still learning alot
of the basics.What is the process of getting chlorate from matches I was gonna do a search but didn't know what to search. If I get some KClO3 I'm
gonna test to see how easy it is to ignite the mix if heard its quite sensitive.
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | Thanks for all the information. |
Perchlorate gives "more bang for your buck", is much safer than chlorate but you're ridiculously <i>still</i> banging on about
extracting chlorate from matches!
Geeez! Just try rereading woelen's informative post a few more times . . . ?
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wardy940
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He was the one that mentioned I just asked about it I would probably just order potassium chlorate if I wanted some. Making a chlorate cell would be
something I would do for like an experimental electro synthesis as the process seems quite simple (correct me if im wrong) I've never done any type of
synthesis yet. Sorry if I offended you with my inquisitive posts .
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hissingnoise
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I wasn't having a go at you ─ just trying to wean you off chlorates, since you have access to a much superior oxidiser . . .
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wardy940
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ahh ok well sorry for snapping a little. Can i ask what makes perchlorate superior I mean KClO3 its obviously more reactive as sulfuric acid can
ignite the chlorate and sugar mix but not the perchlorate mix as ive found out. Is this the reason why perchlorate is preferred?
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woelen
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KClO4 is a superior oxidizer for the following reasons:
- much safer, compositions with KClO4 are much less sensitive than similar compositions with KClO3
- can be used in conjunction with sulphur without the risk of spontaneous ignition through friction or on long term storage
- once going, it is slightly more powerful than KClO3, but this effect only has limited value
The disadvantage of KClO4 is that it is more expensive and for the home chemist it is much harder to make than KClO3. KClO3 is considered the poor
man's choice and in many countries the use of this in fireworks is prohibited. Where I live, the use of KClO3 and the use of red phosphorus in
professional fireworks, such as used in shows, is forbidden, too much risk of accidents. Both are very poor choices of compounds in a composition.
Here you have a demonstration of how dangerous KClO3 and/or red P can be in pyrotechnics:
http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/raw_material...
This is a funny demo, but you must not think of what could happen if this happens with tens of grams in a large pot. This same demo is not possible
with KClO4 and red P. Such a mix must be ignited, it cannot be set off by simply tapping it with a little rod. A mix of KClO3 and S also can be set
off by tapping it.
KClO3 has its uses, such as in syntheses of other chemicals (a nice one is making p-benzoquinone from hydroquinone in acidic aqueous solution with
KClO3 or NaClO3 as oxidizer, another one is in gold refinery in conjunction with HCl), but these applications are outside of pyrotechnics.
[Edited on 13-9-13 by woelen]
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wardy940
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ahh ok I guess Ill use perchlorate from now on. And what is the use of sulfur in a mix of KClO4 and sucrose? or infact anything to do KClO4. Is it
just to sensitize it?
Also my main interest isn't in pyrotechnics more in chemistry particularity inorganic chemistry and although i don't know allot yet im trying to learn
the basics in general chemistry first so i can understand more complex inorganic chemistry if that makes sense haha. Is that site with the KClO3 and
red p experiment yours? i noticed the same name
And lastly lol can you recommend any decent books that will help will the beginnings of chemistry.
[Edited on 13-9-2013 by wardy940]
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woelen
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If pyrotechnics is not the main interest of yours, then I would start with other chemicals than KClO4. Perchlorates are not really interesting outside
of pyrotechnics, except maybe as counterion in diverse kinds of coordination complexes, but that is a fairly specific type of chemistry and beyond
reach of you as a starter.
If you want to start with chemistry and want to learn something about it, then I would advice you to buy a book about the subject, which is aimed at
high school pupils. Just any decent school book will do. It teaches you basics like
- atoms, molecules, pure compounds, mixes
- elements, the periodic table
- formulas of compounds
- reaction equations
- concept of molecular weights, mole, mass-mole computations
- acids and bases, pH
- redox reactions, redox potential, noble and less noble metals
With the above things you have a fairly good basis, which may help you to advance to more advanced chemistry.
The pages I have provided you are indeed from my own website. I have a fairly extensive website with a large chemistry section. One more page, which
may be of interest for you is the one about starting with home chemistry:
http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/misc/homelab.html
It explains to you what basic equipment you can buy and which chemicals are good to start with.
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wardy940
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well ill admit that i bought the perchlorate to do the sugar reaction and also so i had as its increasingly difficult to find.
The link was very helpful im gonna order some of the chemicals and equipment so i can do some simple experiments while in between reading the books im
also going to look for some GCSE chemistry books like you suggested i dont know why I never thought of that before.
I know that the branch i want to to study is a well out of my reach for now hopefully after a year or so of learning the basics and doing basic
experiments i can move on to things like that. I wish i would of listened more in school ha I would love to go to university and study chemistry.
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Fantasma4500
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if youre considering flash, i would say its perchlorate you want to use, as it opens up for using sulfur as sentisizer (catalyst i could call it also)
on deflagrations its very different and much faster
from matches if you need KClO3 you wont get much and you first need to get good at extracting it, if you really need to try it out -- use storm
matches
ive seen KClO3 used for stars for fireworks, and H3 as liftpowder and salute powder
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wardy940
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i did consider making a small amount of flash like 1.5 grams to make sure i dont blow my fingers of as im inexperienced in mixing it just to see it
for myself but wasnt sure if should but the way i see it is that i wont get any experience not doing it.
Anyway like i said to woelen pyrotechnics isnt my main interest although with it coming up to November soon I will probably be making some small
fireworks and what not to get a bit more experience so i can make some nice ones for bonfire night.
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woelen
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Keep in mind that even a small amount like 1 gram of flash powder can give an amazing BOOM. You don't want 1 gram of flash set off while you are near
to it. A single gram can rip off fingers (or more!).
In consumer fireworks, intended for use on the ground, no more than 0.05 grams of flash powder may be present. When confined, even 0.05 grams of flash
powder can give quite a nice bang!
if you really want to experiment a little with pyrotechnics and want some fun for November, then try to make a few little gerbs (fountains). You can
mix KClO4 with sulphur and finely powdered carbon and press the mix into a cardboard cylinder and add some finely cut Al-foil or little shavings of
magnesium for nice glitter effects. Never hammer the mix into the cylinder, but press it into the cylinder (I once did some experiments with this and
used a wooden stick having a diameter just a little less than the inner diameter of the cardboard cylinder, which I made by cutting shavings from a
small piece of wood and filing it to make its cross section reasonably circular). Mixing in a few percents of BaCO3, BaSO4, or Ba(NO3)2 also is nice,
it produces greenish flames, especially when only sulphur is used as fuel (which can be done safely with KClO4). Such gerbs may be fairly hard to
ignite, but with suitable fuse it can be done.
My experiences in this field are extremely limited and I never made anything which gave larger fountains than 50 cm height or so. If you want good
information about that, then I think you should try to find a good pyrotechnics forum. I do not know out of hand of such a forum, but I'm quite sure
that a google search will direct you to a decent forum. I think, however, that there also will be quite a few crap forums, with people who just want
big bangs and a lot of smoke and want to blow up things in the streets. So, be careful and critical with your source of information.
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wardy940
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i never knew that about flash powder i figured 1- 1.5 grams wouldn't do much damage. i would of only ever used the "diaper" method plus i have anti
static spray as a precaution.
I've been on a couple of forums for pyrotechnics there ok but i mean i wouldn't really be interested in in fireworks outside of November. I prefer to
see a reaction up close its more entertaining to watch. I did a 20 gram batch of KClO4 mixed with sucrose last night it looked great in the dark.
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