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Author: Subject: Short question / quick answer - Thread
XeonTheMGPony
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Look up the ETN plasticizing thread
Bert

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Welcome to the forum- Have fun and be safe.

 Quote: Hey, I'm completely new to the forum so hopefully this post isn't a step out of line or something that's already been over-discussed.

Please read the FAQ here on posting:

Please post quick questions with no references, links or experimental data to "short question, quick answer"

Or in "beginnings"

Or ask in an existing, related thread... Of which Google will show you many.

[Edited on 7-12-2016 by Bert]

Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

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Bert
7-12-2016 at 13:21
Marvin
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 Quote: Originally posted by Bert Can anyone provide a description of the liquid explosives used in Russian PFM-1 type mines? All I find on searching are repeated references to " VS6-D or VS-60D".

The curse of Wikipedia on searching for information not on it.

The Australian Network to Ban Landmines names the VS60D explosive as 1,5dichloro-3,3-dimethoxy-2,2,4,4-tetranitropentane and there is the hint that the primary is a lead compound. Apparently causing a lot of problems for mine clearance and processing.
Thraxx
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Please,I have a problem and I would like to please you for advice.
I did the hydrazinsulfate like here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCovDr4FVNQ.But on the place of gelatine I gave there KMnO4.This reaction is very old from year 1918 and there was written,that this KMnO4 is possible use like inhibitor and that its advantageous,because there is no foam like with gelatine.Well,I did it,but the reaction had a lot of foam and -surprisingly-there was a lot of dark brown insoluble product.But what it was??There was not sulfuric acid,this I added after and it turned to clear "watter".
Does somebody knew,what I prepared?Thank you.
Tin man
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Thraxx-
The brown precipitate is probly manganese dioxide from the reduction of potassium permanganate by hydrazine. I highly doubt that hydrazine and permanganate could exist in the same solution without destroying each other.
Thraxx
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Thank you,I was frightened,that in my bottle is born some dangerous something like Potassium or Manganese hydrazinate or what.
RogueRose
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Explosives "size" ratings - 500lb, 1000lb etc - what does this mean exactly?

I've heard newscasts or military documentaries discussing munition sizes and they say 500lb, 1k lb, 2k lb, - like those used in WWII in carpet campaigns. Then I hear about missile's and "war heads", usually much smaller but some with 1K lb.

Is this the explosive amount or explosive + casing/body? does the "vehicle" hold XXX amount of the material - or is it some kind of equivalency? It just seems like a lot of weight for some of these, especially in missiles.

What is the lb rating compared to, TNT, nitroglycerine, black powder?

I have a hard time correlating some news casts that say XXXX lb was used on this event/attack - and they show the damage, but then old videos from WWII, Korea, Vietnam show much larger devices/ratings doing what looks like much less damage.

Just trying to picture a 1/2 pallet of NH4NO3 (1000lb) fitting in the head of a missile. Kind of boggles the mind if that is what those numbers mean
greenlight
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Only info I can find quickly is from wikipedia so truth of it is unknown but it says it is the weight of the whole bomb, casing, filling and initiation system. It is not always correct though and could be more or less than the weight in pounds stated apparently.

This is what I found on wikipedia:

"General-purpose bombs are often identified by their weight (e.g., 500 lb, 227 kg). In many cases this is strictly a nominal weight, or caliber, and the actual weight of each individual weapon may vary depending on its retardation, fusing, carriage, and guidance systems. For example, the actual weight of a U.S. M117 bomb, nominally 750 lb (340 kg), is typically around 820 lb (372 kg).

The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
Bert
8-12-2016 at 10:32
James Ikanov
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I'm of the understanding that military munitions use the weight of the whole device, unless they specify that it's the "yield in x units" such as saying a yield of 1kt. Then it's that wieght in TNT. There are also systems that specifically designate the weight of the charge inside the device itself.

You'll usually only see that on specialty items and non-standard munitions types like thermobaric devices or nuclear devices IIRC, but hey, the more you know.

For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43/B_Massive_Ordnance_Air_...

You can see in the stats box the total yield is listed as 10.3K lbs, but the yield is around 11 tons of TNT. That's a fairly significant difference.

Standard munitions also often have a seperate number for the exact weight of the warhead listed in the publicly available stats as well.

I could be wrong, that's just my understanding of US nomenclature. I've spent a lot of time flipping through the stats sheets and looking up technical information about this kind of thing but I'm definitely not an expert.

“To do good work one must eat well, be well housed, have one's fling from time to time, smoke one's pipe, and drink one's coffee in peace” - Vincent Van Gogh
James Ikanov
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 Quote: Originally posted by Bert Can anyone provide a description of the liquid explosives used in Russian PFM-1 type mines? All I find on searching are repeated references to " VS6-D or VS-60D".

Your google-fu needs some work (I'm kidding, this stuff was a pain in the ass to get even vague info on)
but honestly this is some cool stuff you've mentioned

VS60D explosive in PFM-1 mines (1,5dichloro-3,3-dimethoxy-2,2,4,4-
tetranitropentane

http://australia.icbl.org/index_htm_files/Memorandum85.pdf

Sorry I can't be more helpful there, although a quick skim suggests the explosive contains some kind of lead compound

D'oh. Well, someone mentioned all this before me. At least I gave the direct link.... I think there may be something worthwhile in how the fusing mechanism operates relative to the explosive train, if that makes up for my haste. I've found a few vague references to it being hydraulically activated by the pressure of the explosive on part of the center column, and it doesn't look like there's a particularly potent blasting cap or any such thing tucked away into the center column of the mine. Doing a bit of reading on it the cap looks like a pretty standard military type, perhaps even smaller, so I'd guess this stuff doesn't exactly require a large booster to go off.

I also went and found this:

Which further led me to this:

http://www.apminebanconvention.org/intersessional-work-progr...

While I do think that the source is slanted it would appear to suggest that the compound inside the mines is both rather toxic and somewhat reactive even with plastics such as the stuff the shell is constructed of. Actually, at this point based on everything I've found, even the byproducts of an actual successful detonation may have traces or significant amounts of cyanides or what not....

That said, there was this extremely indicative little nugget in there:

"One of the major problems highlighted during this seminar was the lack of information on the chemical components of the PFM mine."

Basically, even the countries that are currently trying to figure out how to pull them out of inventory have no idea what the hell's in them.

Sorry, but I don't know if what you want is publicly available. I'd start looking up people in Russia or Eastern Europe for some help at this point... or start googling in russian.

[Edited on 9-12-2016 by James Ikanov]

“To do good work one must eat well, be well housed, have one's fling from time to time, smoke one's pipe, and drink one's coffee in peace” - Vincent Van Gogh
Bert

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Apparently, the USSR designed and used a family of liquid filled, air scattered mines. Here's an anti vehicle/anti tank version, different designation for the main charge (PVV-12S) but a similar soft, flexible body and pressure activated fuze- This one at least had a timed self destruct mechanism.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30022000#

And nothing easily to be found on the nature of the liquid explosive, of course.

I had not previously run across the USA version of the maple seed mine, "dragontooth". At least the fill for this one is a more widely known mixture- Amine/methanol sensitizer released on activation to mix with nitromethane/nitroethane, also the sensitizer dissolves a protective coating on time release chemical deactivation unit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLU-43_Dragontooth

Families of ordnance and related filler chemistry out there I had not learned of... Just in case the cold war required a few million air scattered mines with an absolute minimum of HE filling time and effort.

Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

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The_Davster
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Both you you have poor google-fu

Found by searching mine name on russian wiki to get the russian name of the explosive. Then a google.ru search of the copy/paste explosive name in Cyrillic.

One of the first google results:
http://army.lv/ru/Vzrivchatie-sostavi/1481/3980

ВС-6Д –
Бис (2,2,2-тринитроэтил) формаль (в-во К) – 9%;
Бис (2-хлор-2,2-динитроэтил) формаль (ХК) – 49%;
Метиловый эфир ,,-тринитромасляной кислоты (МЭТК) – 21%;
Тринитроэтилацетат (АТС) – 21%;
ДОС (флегматизатор) – 2,5% сверх 100%

9% Bis(2,2,2 trinitroethyl)formal

49% bis(2-chloro-2,2-dinitro)formal

21% methyl 3,3,3-trinitropropionate ( (O2N)3CH2CH2COOCH3) (had a hard time with this translation, see below)

21% trinitroethylacetate

Last thing I have no clue what it translates to.

EDIT:
Trying to figure out Метиловый эфир ,,-тринитромасляной кислоты (МЭТК) – 21%
Still.
Searching for it on google.ru and liberal use of google translate leads to this
"Метиловый эфир 3-иодпропионовой кислоты реагирует с ртутной солью нитроформа в воде при 35 °С, образуя метиловый эфир 4,4,4-тринитромасляной кислоты с выходом 6% [196]. "

which google translate says is: Methyl 3- iodpropionovoy acid reacts with the mercury salt nitroform in water at 35 ° C to form methyl 4,4,4-trinitromaslyanoy acid 6% yield [196].

"maslyanoy acid" seems to be a butchered translation.
But the synthesis seems to be methyl 3-iodopropionic acid reacting with Hg Nitroformate with an obvious product.

Seems like a lot of nitroform based chemistry. Interesting. All incredibly easy to destroy with NaOH

[Edited on 9-12-16 by The_Davster]

[Edited on 9-12-16 by The_Davster]
Bert

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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".

I do really wonder what the reasons were the USSR chose these liquid mixtures

(Edit)
Is it possible that the above described Russian explosive mixture of various halogenated nitroformals and ethyl trinitroacetate are all products of a single reaction or series of reactions, that this to say, this odd hell brew was made by a "one pot" synthesis? And that these proportions are just the % mixture that comes out...

USSR just used the quickest, cheapest method they could find to produce an explosive liquid suitable for the job, and would not be bothered with any extra work, multiple syntheses or much in the way of purification? Land mines gots to be cheap.

Just quickly scanning patents related to the production of the ethyl mono and dinitroacetates, this idea kind of popped out at me.

What would the precursors have been?

[Edited on 10-12-2016 by Bert]

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The_Davster
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Common precursor for all of these is nitroform, but I am not sure which route the soviets were producing nitroform by. To the best of my knowledge, nobody is producing nitroform in the west anymore. Rather curious myself why the soviets were making so much of it. The mixture of so many nitroform derivatives is interesting as well...eutectic?

Its kinda an easy way to make a non-explosive material explosive, just add a trinitromethyl or trinitroethyl moiety . Thermal and base stability of these materials is of course an issue.

Nitroform reacts with formaldehyde giving trinitroethanol which is used as a precursor for 3 of the 4 ingredients. The fourth ingredient is prepared directly from a salt of nitroform skipping the trinitroethanol step.

Bert

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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".

Look at the waste or by products of some other (then common) industrial chemical works for the cheap raw materials, + the nitroform? Some process that leaves partially chlorinated organics, maybe a pesticide?

(Edit) Dechlorane/Mirex? Soviet union made this a LOT, and it was phased out in 1976- What to do with your stock piles, how to amortize the expense of your chemical works over a bit longer time...

We used to use the byproducts as chlorine donor in colored stars, what happens if you dispose of them by sending over to the state armament factory...

Plus some catalysts, hence the heavy metal, Iodine?

[Edited on 10-12-2016 by Bert]

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OneEyedPyro
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ANFO sensitizer?

I recently had a conversation with an old timer who had just retired from a rock quarry after working there for nearly 30 years.

He was talking about various aspects of the job and what kind of explosives they used, he mentioned ANFO, detcord and shock tube but nothing else.
I asked him about what kind of booster they used for the ANFO and he kind of shrugged and said they just used detcord and ANFO, after mentioning how it typically can't be detonated by detcord alone he mentioned some kind of additive.

He said somebody would add a heaping spoonful of a white powder into about half a coffee can worth of ANFO and shake it up like how you would mix tannerite.
They would tie an overhand knot in the end of a length of detcord which was then taped to the bottom of the liner then lower it into the hole followed by the sensitized ANFO followed by regular ANFO. He claimed they never had a single dud with this setup.

Any ideas what the mystery powder could have been?
I was thinking maybe PETN or RDX but I would think pure, powdered HEs like that aren't something you'd find readily available in bulk for mining purposes.
Maybe a perchlorate or something along those lines?
Marvin
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I don't know, and practically it could be anything but I'd have thought anything that would detonate on it's own would be used in the form of a booster, not shaken through the mixture. Making ammonium nitrate mixtures detonate seems like a dark art to me, and now it's used as a water slurry! I'd hazard a guess the additive might be microballoons.
Metacelsus
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Yeah, it's probably microballoons.

As below, so above.
Bert
17-12-2016 at 08:00
MineMan
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 Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro I recently had a conversation with an old timer who had just retired from a rock quarry after working there for nearly 30 years. He was talking about various aspects of the job and what kind of explosives they used, he mentioned ANFO, detcord and shock tube but nothing else. I asked him about what kind of booster they used for the ANFO and he kind of shrugged and said they just used detcord and ANFO, after mentioning how it typically can't be detonated by detcord alone he mentioned some kind of additive. He said somebody would add a heaping spoonful of a white powder into about half a coffee can worth of ANFO and shake it up like how you would mix tannerite. They would tie an overhand knot in the end of a length of detcord which was then taped to the bottom of the liner then lower it into the hole followed by the sensitized ANFO followed by regular ANFO. He claimed they never had a single dud with this setup. Any ideas what the mystery powder could have been? I was thinking maybe PETN or RDX but I would think pure, powdered HEs like that aren't something you'd find readily available in bulk for mining purposes. Maybe a perchlorate or something along those lines?

As the others have said, my only guess would be microballons. But usually (always) microballoons are mixed in to the prills during manufacturing. About 5000-7000 microballons per prill (2mm). This kind of ANFO is cap sensitive when ground into powder...

Also we don't know if it was standard 17 grain cord or 200 grain. Yes, a 3/4lb pentolite booster or a stick of cap sensitive emulsion is always used for the booster. I have heard of no quarries blasting like this, it must have been a small mom and pop operation. What country was this in??

If it was in the states, I find it very hard to believe it was PETN powder. Anyways, I know the point of this question is the sensatizer...but since I cannot answer this with certainty, I will say that it was terrible blasting practice, and while they may have saved $4 a hole without using boosters they paid for it in coarse fragmentation and flyrock (detcord stemming ejection) Also, does anyone know what happened to Laboratory of Liptakov, I really miss his contributions?? OneEyedPyro Hazard to Others Posts: 149 Registered: 7-10-2015 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood This is in the US, the quarry produces crushed rock for landscaping type stuff and local road work. It is a pretty small scale operating employing maybe 15 or 20 guys. They actually excavate sand and gravel as their main business but produce crushed rock as needed. Some other things he said, the white powder was usually kept in a paint can or gallon ice cream pale, was prone to clumping and the owner moved it to a storage shed at night with the rest of the explosives. A business around here uses huge quantities of sodium chlorate and has been known to sell chemicals and products to other local businesses, chlorate would seem to fit the bill in terms of appearance and properties not to mention it would definitely increase sensitivity via ammonium chlorate formation. NaClO3 seems too dangerous though, maybe if used soon after mixing it's not an issue. Of course it may not be chlorate anyway. [Edited on 18-12-2016 by OneEyedPyro] Bert Super Administrator Posts: 2705 Registered: 12-3-2004 Member Is Offline Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling". Among white powders reasonably available and not terribly expensive- Urea, hexamine, Potassium nitrate, ammonium perchlorate and ammonium persulfate all sensitize ammonium nitrate to some extent. Usually done in a melt or water gel/emulsion, rather than a dry mix. Potassium chlorate would certInly do it, I would tend to add a few % additional of cheap ethylene glycol antifreeze along with the chlorate- And not store it after mixing. project ethylene glycol Never used Sodium chlorate. NaClO3 would tend to be even more sensitive than KClO3, by several accounts. It has not been offered for weed control around here for a long time, and is not a good choice for many pyrotechnic uses. I have a few ounces of it only because of cleaning out the labs of several older pyros who died or had to go into hospice care. (Edit) Yes, still available through internet, but not locally OTC. As I recall, the commercial weed killers were only about 50% NaClO3 anyhow. https://www.amazon.com/Sodium-Chlorate-Crystals-Technical-Na... Wow.$12.00/lb. Plus shipping... Not a cheap oxidizer any more.

[Edited on 18-12-2016 by Bert]

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Bert

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Donor Free Radical Explosive Composition

And now for something completely different:

Note example 12, page 5- A claim of reducing drop hammer test of TNT from 100cm to 44cm via a few % of tetramethyl ammonium triborohydride?

Note claims for various organic boron compounds with from 1 to 7 Carbons per chain as sensitizers for ammonium nitrate explosives, claim 14, page 6?

Although patent DOES specify more Boron per molecule, ratios of Carbon:Boron are similar to a suggested range for sensitizers. No specific data for the Boron containing sensitizers with ammonium nitrate are given, just the passing mention.

Trimethyl borate (green flame special effect liquid, dead easy to make) as an ammonium nitrate sensitizer? I wonder.

Perhaps I can join Yamato71 in the "WTF did I just make?!" thread?

MSDS (oops, SDS) for trimethyl borate sounds quite fun... incompatible with oxidizers? Well, not by MY standards. So they are worried it might explode... Poor dears.

But not stable vs. water and air. Not storage stable?

[Edited on 18-12-2016 by Bert]

Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

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Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

PHILOU Zrealone
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 Quote: Originally posted by Bert And now for something completely different: https://www.google.ch/patents/US4196026 Note example 12, page 5- A claim of reducing drop hammer test of TNT from 100cm to 44cm via a few % of tetramethyl ammonium triborohydride? Note claims for various organic boron compounds with from 1 to 7 Carbons per chain as sensitizers for ammonium nitrate explosives, claim 14, page 6? Although patent DOES specify more Boron per molecule, ratios of Carbon:Boron are similar to a suggested range for sensitizers. No specific data for the Boron containing sensitizers with ammonium nitrate are given, just the passing mention. Trimethyl borate (green flame special effect liquid, dead easy to make) as an ammonium nitrate sensitizer? I wonder. http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10778 Perhaps I can join Yamato71 in the "WTF did I just make?!" thread? MSDS (oops, SDS) for trimethyl borate sounds quite fun... incompatible with oxidizers? Well, not by MY standards. So they are worried it might explode... Poor dears. But not stable vs. water and air. Not storage stable? [Edited on 18-12-2016 by Bert]

Nice finding.
Quite surprising.

I also wonder what is that triborohydride compound?
Strangely the same compound as borohydride is less efficient.
It must be very basic and as such it may be responsible of a shift of the equilibrium of TNT to the nitronate side.
CH3-C=C-NO2 <--> CH2=C-C=N(O)-OH
It is known fact that TNT and TNB are sensitized by strong bases like NaOH, KOH, LiOH.

Since the best sensitizers for TNT are by order:
Azobenzene 10% reduction explosive height (REH) (90 vs 100 cm)
Acetaldehyde 10% REH (90 vs 100 cm)
Triethylamine 12% REH (88 vs 100 cm) (maybe linked to its basicity)
Ammonium persulfate 20% REH (80 vs 100 cm)
Quinone 23% REH (77 vs 100 cm)
Ethyl bromide 38% REH (62 vs 100 cm)
T.M.A.T.B. 66% REH (44 vs 100 cm)

Since the last is not OTC.
I have some good OTC-isher ideas!
1°)Azobenzene
--> All food and dye colourizer diazo-compounds
--> Azomethane (CH3-N=N-CH3)
--> Azodicarbonamide (H2N-CO-N=N-CO-NH2)
2°)Azo compounds and triethylamine
--> tetramethylhydrazine ((CH3)2N-N(CH3)2)
3°)Quinone and acetaldehyde
--> Glyoxal
--> Acetone, Phorone, Phloroglucidol (1,3,5-trihydroxybenzene) or pentan-2,4-dione
4°)Peroxydes
--> Benzoyl peroxyde (Ar-CO-O-O-OC-Ar)
--> Tert-butyl ether peroxyde ((CH3)3C-O-O-C(CH3)3)
--> H2O2 (water desensitizes but peroxydes sensitizes --> unknown)
--> Urea peroxyde (Carbamide peroxyde) (H2N-CO-NH2.H2O2)
5°)Halogenated solvents
--> CH3-NBr2 (explosive), CH2Br2, CHBr3, I-C#C-I (solid explosive), Br-CH2-CH2-Br, Br2CH-CHBr2, Br3C-NO2 (explosive)

Some of the above may work also for Ammonium nitrate.
I especially think to urea peroxyde...urea is already a sensitizer of AN...so a little free radical HO° and HO2° can't arm

Of course they mention that:
-nitrate esters are sensitizers (EGDN, NG, ETN)
-organic peroxydes aswel like CTAP, CDAP, HMDATP

[Edited on 19-12-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
Bert

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I have azodicarbonamide on hand, it is useful for adjusting burn speed of various pyrotechnics and composite rocket fuels-

There is a patent for an ammonium nitrate/perchlorate explosive, sensitized by using a few % of azodicarbonamide and a larger ammount of 2-ethylhexyl nitrate (a common cetane improver additive for diesel fuel).

I will need to look for this again, it was not dependant on air spaces/microballoons for detonability and so fairly dense, also had a good VOD, as I recall.

(Edit)

Found it...

[Edited on 18-12-2016 by Bert]

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PHILOU Zrealone
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Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

 Quote: Originally posted by Bert I have azodicarbonamide on hand, it is useful for adjusting burn speed of various pyrotechnics and composite rocket fuels- There is a patent for an ammonium nitrate/perchlorate explosive, sensitized by using a few % of azodicarbonamide and a larger ammount of 2-ethylhexyl nitrate (a common cetane improver additive for diesel fuel). I will need to look for this again, it was not dependant on air spaces/microballoons for detonability and so fairly dense, also had a good VOD, as I recall. (Edit) Found it... http://www.google.com/patents/US5750057 [Edited on 18-12-2016 by Bert]

Nice so everything is coherent...I like that.
Both patents say that nitrate esters are sensitizers and that azo compounds aswel

Lucky you...azodicarbonamide...wow I wish I had some to make:
1°) the hydrazine variant by methathesis
H2N-CO-N=N-CO-NH2 + 2 H2N-NH2 --> H2N-NH-CO-N=N-CO-NH-NH2 + 2 NH3 (or polymeric (-NH-NH-CO-N=N-CO-)n)
--> alone as energetic fuel additive, as salts of oxydizing oxo-acids or as complexes of salts of transition metals with oxydizing oxo-anions.
2°) salts of it...with HNO3, HClO4, HIO4, HC(NO2)3, HCN4H, O2N-CN4H, ...
--> nitrate or dinitrate, perchlorate or diperchlorate, periodate or diperiodate, nitroformiate or di-nitroformiate, tetrazolate or ditetrazolate, nitrotetrazolate or di-nitrotetrazolate,...
3°) the variant of carbamide peroxyde
--> azodicarbonamide peroxyde or diperoxyde.
4°) complexes of salts of transition metals with oxydizing oxo-anions

[Edited on 19-12-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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