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Bert
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[*] posted on 5-9-2017 at 10:12


There is considerable information available for high explosives based on mixtures of Potassium chlorate and nitrobenzene or of ammonium nitrate and nitromethane.

Do any know of data on mixtures of Potassium chlorate and nitromethane? VOD, impact and friction sensitivity? (high, one assumes...) STABILITY? Was there ever any industrial use made of this mixture?

A quick Google search shows some amateur experimental uses, and at least one video.




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[*] posted on 6-9-2017 at 01:33


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
There is considerable information available for high explosives based on mixtures of Potassium chlorate and nitrobenzene or of ammonium nitrate and nitromethane.

Do any know of data on mixtures of Potassium chlorate and nitromethane? VOD, impact and friction sensitivity? (high, one assumes...) STABILITY? Was there ever any industrial use made of this mixture?

A quick Google search shows some amateur experimental uses, and at least one video.

The main problems with nitromethane (NM) are:
1°) It is near perfect OB
CH3-NO2 --> CO2 + 3/2 H2
3/2 H2 + 3/4 O2 --> 3/2 H2O
OB = -19,6%

This means that for perfect OB one needs 50% KClO3 and 50% NM (halve a mole of KClO3 to get 3/2 O vs 1 mole of NM thus 61g and 61g)

This will cause fast sedimentation of the KClO3...unless some active thickener gellig agent is used ==> Nitrocellulose is a good gelling agent.

Into ANNM and ANFO the % of liquid vs solid is low thus it can be held by capilarity forces into place without too much segregation.


2°) It is of low density... Nitrobenzene (NB) is slightly higher in density and DNB or DNT oils are much denser thus increasing VOD and detonic parameters of the oxydiser/fuel mix

3°) NB contains a lot more fuel (C and H atoms/bad OB) to burn so the heat of combustion per kg is much higher than NM...also one will need more solid vs the liquid to acheive a perfect OB mix and one will be closer to conventional ANNM/ANFO mixes with regards to solid/liquid ratio.

4°) NB has a higher viscosity, a lower inflamability and lower volatility than NM; viscosity will help in holding the mix stabler with regard to sedimentartion segregation; the other parameters will help for storage safety...

*************************************************
The problem with KClO3 is its dead weight counterpart... solid KCl into the detonations products...

NH4NO3 has the advantage to increase the overal gas generated during detonation process and thus the explosion mechanical work or blast pressure.

So better oxydisers would be (eventually with help of active/or energy rich fuel gelling agents stables vs the oxydisers):

A) Ammonium perchlorate ==> AP/NM
AP has a low VOD but a very high density; the low VOD is caused by its overoxygenation...adding NM will reveal its maximum power...

B) Hydrazinium nitrate ==> HN/NM

C) Hydrazinium pechlorate ==> HP/NM

D) Hydroxylamine nitrate ==> HAN/NM

E) Hydroxylamine perchlorate ==> HAP/NM

F) Urea perchlorate ==> UP/NM

G) Other oxydisers based on nitroform or dinitramide
==> HNF/NM (hydrazinium nitroformate (stable?)-NM)
==> ANF/NM (Ammonium nitroformate-NM)
==> HANF/NM (hydroxylaminium nitroformate (stable?)-NM)
==> UNF/NM (urea nitroformate (stable?)-NM)
==> HDN/NM (hydrazinium dinitramide (stable?)-NM)
==> ADN/NM (Ammonium dinitramide-NM)
==> HADN/NM (hydroxylaminium dinitramide (stable?)-NM)
==> UDN/NM (urea dinitramide (stable?)-NM)

******************************************
Sensitivity to impact or friction of KClO3/NM mix should be driven by the weakest explosive link... what is NM... thus not exceptionnal except if some conventionnal basic media is present to help.

Storage stability should be of no concern if KClO3 and NM are pure enough...and exempt of water...
KClO3 is uncompatible with acidic compounds... and NM is moderately acidic and only express its weak acidity if water is present... and KClO3 is not hygroscopic at all...it crystallizes/precipitates without water of hydration...


********************************
The use of higher homologues of NM like 1,2-dinitroethane (DNE) or 1,2,3-trinitropropane (TNPr) will bring more density to the mixes and allow those to reach regios of VOD (between 8,0-10 km/s) and very high brisance...



[Edited on 6-9-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 13-9-2017 at 05:42
EM Short Question


I hope these questions aren't regarded as overly kewlish and whilst they have probably been answered previously I have utse and read numerous posts with out a definitive answer being apparent.

But given this is the short question/quick answer thread I thought I may as well ask.

1, How much A.P. (acetone peroxide) is required to successfully initiate detonation of E.T.N (ethryitol tetranitrate)?

The ETN will be sensitized by addition of 15%(b.w) of aluminum powder. Containment will be a thin walled aluminum tube approx 6mm diameter.

2, How much ETN is required to successfully initiate detonation of nitrocellulose?
(Trinitrate, properly washed, neutralised, stabilized, dried and pressed to optimal density) containment varied.

I apologise in advance if these questions aren't suited to this thread and am happy for a moderator to delete or move to the appropriate thread or subsection if deemed necessary.

Many thanks in advance.

E2a I realise AP is less than an ideal primary and I loath to synth it again (been several years since I last did on account of a Darwin award worthy mistake on by behalf which very nearly lost me two fingers) but unless my UTC source of sodium azide comes through soon my options are limited to AP/HMTD. Its worth saying that both questions are at this point hypothetical. As I am still unconvinced that AP is worth the risk. Its amazing how convincing our little accidents can be eh..

Anyways just wanted to clarify as I'm not some 14yr old kid and have the appropriate respect for the compounds in question.

Again, many thanks
[Edited on 13-9-2017 by UkAmateur]

[Edited on 13-9-2017 by UkAmateur]
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[*] posted on 13-9-2017 at 19:52


I'm not often the sort to suggest this kind of thing, but if you can find an older car (I think pre-2004? google might be more informative) with intact original airbags, those systems primarily used sodium azide. You can gut them and strip them for sodium azide if you use the right tools and are very gentle about removing the gas generator.

I should clarify I've never personally attempted this method of procurement. But I read about it in a text written by someone I would qualify well as an expert in the field.

Either way, I'd say making Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate or a nitroguanidine derivative would both be highly preferable to AP. If neither could be produced, perhaps you could consider the MnO2 thermite initiator produced by another member of this forum?




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[*] posted on 13-9-2017 at 20:24


IIRC, Panache is our resident expert on airbag systems. And again, IIRC he does not recommend disassembly to recover NaN3.
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[*] posted on 13-9-2017 at 20:34


I once spent a night reading about obtaining sodium azide from airbags and came to the conclusion it was just too dangerous.


/CJ
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[*] posted on 13-9-2017 at 20:41


Quote: Originally posted by Corrosive Joeseph  
I once spent a night reading about obtaining sodium azide from airbags and came to the conclusion it was just too dangerous.


/CJ

I do this on video for my YT channel. The biggest bastard is separation of the KNO3 from the NaN3 which I have not succeeded in doing yet- not that I have really attempted to though. I dismantled two different airbags from two different car makers and there is a marked difference in construction of each unit but the idea is the same.




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[*] posted on 14-9-2017 at 02:00


Quote: Originally posted by UkAmateur  
I hope these questions aren't regarded as overly kewlish and whilst they have probably been answered previously I have utse and read numerous posts with out a definitive answer being apparent.

But given this is the short question/quick answer thread I thought I may as well ask.

1, How much A.P. (acetone peroxide) is required to successfully initiate detonation of E.T.N (ethryitol tetranitrate)?

The ETN will be sensitized by addition of 15%(b.w) of aluminum powder. Containment will be a thin walled aluminum tube approx 6mm diameter.

2, How much ETN is required to successfully initiate detonation of nitrocellulose?
(Trinitrate, properly washed, neutralised, stabilized, dried and pressed to optimal density) containment varied.

I apologise in advance if these questions aren't suited to this thread and am happy for a moderator to delete or move to the appropriate thread or subsection if deemed necessary.

Many thanks in advance.

E2a I realise AP is less than an ideal primary and I loath to synth it again (been several years since I last did on account of a Darwin award worthy mistake on by behalf which very nearly lost me two fingers) but unless my UTC source of sodium azide comes through soon my options are limited to AP/HMTD. Its worth saying that both questions are at this point hypothetical. As I am still unconvinced that AP is worth the risk. Its amazing how convincing our little accidents can be eh..

Anyways just wanted to clarify as I'm not some 14yr old kid and have the appropriate respect for the compounds in question.

Again, many thanks
[Edited on 13-9-2017 by UkAmateur]

[Edited on 13-9-2017 by UkAmateur]


Above the critical mass of detonation of the explosive into that diameter under the given density... but like many explosive material... it is not reliable D2D explosive...
==> This is the case of ETN / CTAP (cyclo-tri-aceton-peroxide)... depends on too many factors...
==> Trial error and better too much than too little... but that is not nice with regards to the inherent danger of CTAP...

It is said that ETN may be thermaly pushed to D2D with help of Aluminium under heating... so maybe a mild heating mix may do the trick (or a stronger one like exploding CuO/Al thermite.

Again ETN is not easy to D2D reliably especially in tiny amounts...

Better shift to SADS/SANC (Silver acecytlide double salt/ Silver acetylide nitrato complex)... pretty OTC and very easy to detonate even from minute amounts (without confinement what CTAP or ETN hardly do in so tiny amounts) by flame or heat > 180 °C.
==> When using KMnO4/glycerine... it detonates before the mix has the time to burst into flame...

[Edited on 14-9-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 14-9-2017 at 04:33


Thanks for the replies guys. I think I'm gonna shelve the AP idea for now. Even in minute amounts its just to dangerous (to handle/manipulate, the synthesis itself is easy and measures can be taken to reduce risks but when it comes to handling the dry product.. Well I don't need to elaborate)

I'll concentrate on acquiring the required reagents for other primaries first. And maybe look into docs method of detonating ETN caps too at the same time..

I've got plenty of chlorates available (and my cell can easily produce perchlorate too) so the perchlorate primaries are perhaps another option as well.

I was hoping to acquire sodium azide via the car airbag route as I have a friend in the car breaking business but reading a couple of the above posts it may not be as simple as I first hoped..

As is often the case, less speed = more haste.

This isn't the kind of hobby where rushing things brings you any medals. In fact, often the opposite.

I'll keep reading.

Again, many thanks.
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[*] posted on 14-9-2017 at 09:59


For sluggish, low efficiency / low impulse / slow DDT / slow self accelleration initiators there is a very real constraint of critical diameter that works against a practical design at below about 3/8" inch diameter for the initiator column. TCAP is only very marginally usable as an initiator even at that 3/8" diameter in an amount of several grams topped off with a first fire "kicker" of AP / bullseye putty as a low press loading "hand pressed" firing train. HMTD performs a little better, and DDNP still better. At a 1/4" inch column diameter, from my tests, which were not done on ETN or other sensitive base charge, none of the sluggish initiators will perform like they should. Reported by others NHN and other sluggish initiators are going to also require the larger diameter charge columns to be useful loadings.

As for the perchlorates, triaminoguanidine perchlorate over guanidine perchlorate could be an interesting combination of initiator and base charge.
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[*] posted on 15-9-2017 at 04:57


Quote: Originally posted by UkAmateur  
Thanks for the replies guys. I think I'm gonna shelve the AP idea for now. Even in minute amounts its just to dangerous (to handle/manipulate, the synthesis itself is easy and measures can be taken to reduce risks but when it comes to handling the dry product.. Well I don't need to elaborate)

I'll concentrate on acquiring the required reagents for other primaries first. And maybe look into docs method of detonating ETN caps too at the same time..

I've got plenty of chlorates available (and my cell can easily produce perchlorate too) so the perchlorate primaries are perhaps another option as well.

I was hoping to acquire sodium azide via the car airbag route as I have a friend in the car breaking business but reading a couple of the above posts it may not be as simple as I first hoped..

As is often the case, less speed = more haste.

This isn't the kind of hobby where rushing things brings you any medals. In fact, often the opposite.

I'll keep reading.

Again, many thanks.

Why not make hydrazine hydrogeno sulfate the conventionnal way (ammonia or urea and NaOCl (bleach)) and convert it to NaN3... plenty of receipe and info here into the forum or elsewhere on YouTube...




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[*] posted on 15-9-2017 at 05:05


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
For sluggish, low efficiency / low impulse / slow DDT / slow self accelleration initiators there is a very real constraint of critical diameter that works against a practical design at below about 3/8" inch diameter for the initiator column. TCAP is only very marginally usable as an initiator even at that 3/8" diameter in an amount of several grams topped off with a first fire "kicker" of AP / bullseye putty as a low press loading "hand pressed" firing train. HMTD performs a little better, and DDNP still better. At a 1/4" inch column diameter, from my tests, which were not done on ETN or other sensitive base charge, none of the sluggish initiators will perform like they should. Reported by others NHN and other sluggish initiators are going to also require the larger diameter charge columns to be useful loadings.

As for the perchlorates, triaminoguanidine perchlorate over guanidine perchlorate could be an interesting combination of initiator and base charge.

Nice data/infos Rosco :);)

The NiHN (Nickel nitrate hydrazino complex) is indeed too much on the edge between a primary/Secondary... that's why I developped the synergetical mix with SADS/SANC (1/1 to 2/1)... so:
1°) initiability of of the mix is strongly improved vs NiHN alone
==> reducing the needed amount and critical diameter of detonation allowing for a lower diameter detonator and shorter one (development distance of the D2D much shorter)
2°) overal power of the mix is improved vs SADS alone since NiHN is more brisant and display a higher VOD.

Hence the synergy :cool:;)




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