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Author: Subject: Peroxide Watergel
fatkangaroo
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[*] posted on 11-2-2005 at 12:02


After playing with this stuff all week IMHO this is a low to medium power explosive. I can only compare it to ANNM and PNNM which seem to have much more power. I have no real evidence though. I could just tell by the different sounds and crater size and shockwave. I still like it as a no fuss general purpose explosive, is a putty and can be made by the kilo for cheap.
On another note I can not get get Al powder off the shelf anywhere. Got out the yellow pages rang every fibreglass company, marine supply, auto supply and hardware in the book-no joy. If I want the alumimium powder I have to bite the bullet and get it from chemical supply. I dont mind buying there but I prefer OTC.
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JohnWW
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[*] posted on 11-2-2005 at 12:27


You could try making your own, by grinding up some scrap aluminium with a power grinder.
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[*] posted on 11-2-2005 at 15:45


I have tons of scrap Al, but no way to effectivly grind it, what do you mean by a "powder grinder"?...or by what name of machine would I search under? Thanks!

[Edited on 11-2-2005 by Mickhael]




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Skinflint
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[*] posted on 11-2-2005 at 21:17


I've found that relatively fine aluminum powder can be made with an angle grinder. I grind inside of a plastic trash bin to catch the powder. I actually make magnesium and zinc powder the same way. It takes a little bit of time, but it works. Not to mention you could probably borrow one from a friend. If you don't know someone with one I'm sure you could buy a used one for about $30 US. They're very common. As for safety, It is important to use a mask to avoid inhaling fine metal powders.
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J_O_H_N_Q
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[*] posted on 13-2-2005 at 20:42


AXT, what size were the other charges placed on that sheet of metal?
For comparison purposes
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The_Duke
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[*] posted on 13-2-2005 at 21:09


Axt said earlier in the thread to check out the movies at his site for comparison.

I have successfully detonated 70% H2O2 mixed with very fine saw-dust,wood-pulk,ground cork ext. Just like the patent earlier in the thread mentioned.The "slurry explosives" remind me of AN mixtures both in power and performances.

I have recently tried the explosive proposed by Axt using 70%H2O2,AL and a small amount of guar gum, the power is much more noticeable.The AL really gives it a kick and the guar gum really makes this a workable explosive.
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fatkangaroo
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[*] posted on 14-2-2005 at 12:27


Not sure why my stuff is not as powerful as the product in the video. All I can put it down to is maybe my cap is not in intimate contact with the charge. This stuff really stings the hands if you get any on and dont wash it off straight away. When I get to the site thats when I put my cap in. But because I wrap it in about 5 layers of cling film it can be hard to get the cap in without getting the shit all over myself. So sometimes I strap the cap to the side of the charge. Another thing is I use the stuff with in 1 hour of making it so its possible that the product might need a little more time to mix properly. Last but not least some more confinement might help, but then you lose the plastic. I have let of 10 of these charges so far the biggest one being 250 grams. All results have been similar so far. I know when I get a good detonation as the sound carries and echos all over the hills and valleys for several seconds.
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Axt
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[*] posted on 15-2-2005 at 00:53


Its more then probable that the emulsion will show great variations in VOD with temperature/confinement/diametre/initiation etc. as with all emulsions. By your decription of the first charge it seems its capable of very low VOD's if not hit hard enough.

Dont try and make "side by side" comparisons with the other charges on that plate as the others were placed against the ground, whereas the peroxide/Al was leaned against a stump, thus not hindered. The movie of this was tagged onto the end of the other if noone noticed.

It costs me about $15 a kilo, thats twice as much as ANNM :( not that either are very expensive.
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Axt
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[*] posted on 22-2-2005 at 14:00


Somewhat along the same line of thought, along with drawing oxygen from water, another of aluminium's "talents" is to draw the chlorine from chorinated hydrocarbons.

I'm in no position to explode anything right now so someone may wish to try detonate chloropicrin mixed with aluminium powder, though even if aluminium was to take all the chlorine & oxygen it would still balance out at 72% chloropicrin, 28% aluminium. A thickener will be needed, styrofoam (polystyrene) should work.

I just tried mixing the three above chems, they seem compatible, at least in the short term.
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fatkangaroo
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[*] posted on 24-2-2005 at 12:37


This looks nice and easy. Just wondering about the chloropicrin. Was it homemade or bought? In my area one needs a current "Methyl Bromide User Certificate of Competency" to buy. It then goes onto to say 7 litres or less is OK in products containing 5% or less chloropicrin.:( whatever that means.
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Axt
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[*] posted on 24-2-2005 at 13:18


heh.. dont try buying it.

Mix ~450g 12.5% NaOCl with ~16g nitromethane and extract the chloropicrin off the bottom. Yeh, your using a perfectly good explosive to make a noxious stinky non-userfriendly blob ... but its more exotic and thats all that matters :) Oh, and read up on chloropicrins properties before going ahead, its nasty stuff, dont try approaching it if it doesnt fire ;)

[Edited on 24-2-2005 by Axt]
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fatkangaroo
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[*] posted on 24-2-2005 at 13:58


Cheers!
I have read up on chloropicrin its nasty stuff no doubt. Just want to give it a go to check it out and see if it will become part of the family:cool: or forgotten about.
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Axt
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[*] posted on 27-9-2005 at 20:46


I tried binding with xanthan gum, and compared it to guar gum. The xanthan doesn't have the binding power of guar and remained very pasty at 4% binder where guar held a plastic consistancy. Below, from left is 4% guar, 2%xanthan/2% guar & 4% xanthan. Both xanthan & guar were 80 mesh.

<center><img src="http://www.sciencemadness.org/scipics/axt/perwatergel-binders.jpg"></center>

"When mixed with xanthan gum or locust bean gum, the viscosity is more than when either one is used alone, so less of each can be used" <a href="http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/guar_gum.html">Source</a>.

A 50:50 mixture of xanthan to guar was still considerably softer then pure guar and was difficult to roll into a ball. But the "hanging ball" test showed funny results. The mixed binder held onto the 40mm rod for twice as long as the guar binder, even though its softer to knead. Pure xanthan gum only held on for a few seconds. Guar 13 minutes and guar/xanthan 25 minutes. But the pure guar was a much nicer consistancy to handle.

"The relatively low viscosity at high shear (of xanthan) means that it is easy to mix, pour and swallow but its high viscosity at low shear gives good suspension and coating properties and lends stability to colloidal suspensions." <a href="http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/hyxan.html">Source</a>

On a seperate issue, I did try paint grade flake Al, the detonation lingered considerabbly longer then the 200 mesh, and didnt seem to show the brisance of the other charges. Compare the frames below to the others posted.

<center><img src="http://www.sciencemadness.org/scipics/axt/paintwatergel-seq.jpg"></center>
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Swany
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[*] posted on 22-1-2006 at 18:16


Although this thread is quite dead, I have aquired some 600mesh German Dark Al. It seems that Mephisto's Minion has ventured out of the country for quite a while, so I shall test it with the 600 mesh stuff. I have some 27% H2O2 and some ~55% (somewhere... need to find that), guar gum, and the Al. I will work out the ratios.

There is only one problem that I can conjure. I am nearly positive that the Al is coated with carbon. If this is bonded to the Al in any sort of way that will keep water from removing it, troubles could be caused. I may add some Cu powder for a catalyst if this is an issue.

It looks like it is indeed a 'spectator explosive', I am rather enthralled. Perhaps the new Al will make the detonation less lingering, and the explosive more brisant. It is a very curious explosive indeed....




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jpsmith123
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[*] posted on 23-1-2006 at 02:27


I don't have any experience with, knowledge of, or even much interest in H2O2 based explosives, but in reading this thread, I'm wondering, what about using soluble solid or liquid fuels; e.g., sugar, glycerine, ethylene glycol, etc.?
Seems to me you might get a VOD higher than you'd get from a finely divided fuel.

Also, has anyone tried using a crosslinking agent with the guar gum?
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Swany
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[*] posted on 23-1-2006 at 06:45


I belive if your H2O2 is concentrated enough, it will simply oxidise your fuel before you want it too, start on fire, or something similar. Al is rather special as a fuel for this for a number of reasons.

People (Boomer) have used 90% H2O2/starch as an explosive. It is also a 'mix at site' explosive, due to the fact that in a few hours it will be starch thickened water. :P




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[*] posted on 23-1-2006 at 08:34
Patented Peroxide and Glycerine Explosive


I found a patent on it. Apparently it works as long as you're not using too much water. I'm sure it's not as energetic as an aluminized composition, but as I mentioned, it may be faster. I'm attaching the patent.

Attachment: 2452074.pdf (208kB)
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Boomer
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[*] posted on 23-1-2006 at 10:12


Interesting! Firstly, that with glycerine it is much less sensitive than with lower alcohols (I have seen MeOH and EtOH mentioned, IIRC over 6000 m/s but a dangerous mix).
Secondly, that up to 52% water it can be detonated. That means at upwards of 41% H2O2 (with dry glycerine) it works, and with those fuels that were said to be more sensitive, it could work with even a little more water! Though I expect using under 50-60% HP will not be worth it performance-wise.

I just remember, I 'forgot' some 30% H2O2 in the desiccator again around November. Might as well put it to use, should be 85+ percent by now ... :cool:

P.S. Does it attack the enamelled Cu wire of ionization probes? A VoD value would be nice if I can somehow seal the pipe ... :D
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Axt
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[*] posted on 25-1-2006 at 12:24


Quote:
Also, has anyone tried using a crosslinking agent with the guar gum?

Borax was added to the Al/H2O2/guar explosive to act as a cross linking agent, but it actually fell apart quicker, even though borax itself doesn't seem to have any negative effects on the H2O2. I think its best left as a mix then use explosive.

Quote:
Secondly, that up to 52% water it can be detonated. That means at upwards of 41% H2O2 (with dry glycerine) it works

Ethanol + 50% H2O2 at OB isn't sensitive to #8 det in ~100ml quantities in light confinement. This has been tried. I've put some extracts in the first quote of this thread, EtOH/H2O2/H2O supposedly can run up to 6700m/s.

Quote:
P.S. Does it attack the enamelled Cu wire of ionization probes? A VoD value would be nice if I can somehow seal the pipe ...

It won't attack the wire, the wire may attack the H2O2 but does a few bubbles around the wires matter? I dont understand why you would have to seal the pipe, it doesnt really "gas off" at 50%, slowly over the course of 6 hours or so the gas bubbles will become noticable and the putty will eventually turn to liquid. Any sort of small hole in the pipe will prevent exposion.

I think its one best to use in large quantities. Take advantage of all that H2 blown into the air :cool:

EDIT: To get some fuel bound at the molecular level, maybe one could include urea peroxide, in effect giving higher concentration peroxide with less water. Quick calculation for max energy still requires 'eaps of Al to scavenge oxygen from the H2O/CO2. Not accounting for guar gum, I get the following, which probably should be double checked :cool:

44% Aluminium
20% Urea Peroxide
36% Hydrogen Peroxide (50%)

Urea peroxide is made by simply crystalising urea from >30% H2O2.

[Edited on 26-1-2006 by Axt]
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stixx
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[*] posted on 25-1-2006 at 19:14


so essentially this watergel is the perfect OTC explosive.you can buy 70%h2o2 and glycerin by the drum very cheap
here in the united states. sucks for you europeons though.
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Swany
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[*] posted on 26-1-2006 at 12:53


No, it isn't the perfect explosive. There are still many questions that need awnsering before you could declare it as such. I also believe europeans would have no trouble getting those reagents either.

Unfortunatly, I have not been able to test the Al based gel yet. Perhaps tonight, or else it will be a few days.




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fatkanga
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[*] posted on 26-1-2006 at 15:07


I was wondering about this "Urea Peroxide" and exactly how one goes about making it. I have everything all ready but unsure about how to go about it.

As I understand it when you say "crystalising urea from 30% peroxide" you mean just stir around the urea at room temperature in a solution of 30% peroxide untill it dissolves then evaporate the peroxide and you have the urea peroxide? Im sorry if this is a stupid question, but im not much of a chemist but I can follow instructions.;)

I can also try this peroxide glycerine patent and hope I can get it to work. Al based peroxide costs me over double what glycerine and peroxide would cost.
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[*] posted on 26-1-2006 at 18:37


What would be the stichiometry of hexamine dissolved instead of glyecerin. would this result in a more energetic material?
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[*] posted on 26-1-2006 at 19:48


Hexamine's formula is C6H12N4, and glycerine's is C3H8O3, I will leave you to figure atomic weights, and continue. I highly doubt that hexamine would make a worthwhile additive, as it would not be as energetic, and mixing to homogeneity would be harder, as glycerol is a liquid.

So to the point, I don't think so. That is just me, though.




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Axt
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[*] posted on 27-1-2006 at 09:58


Quote:
Originally posted by fatkanga
I was wondering about this "Urea Peroxide" and exactly how one goes about making it.


Dissolve urea in 2:3 molar excess of hot (60°C) 30% H2O2, then cool. CO(NH2)2.H2O2 should start crystalising out. then evaporate off to retrieve the "urea peroxide" aka "carbamide peroxide" aka "percarbamide" aka "urea hydrogen peroxidate" aka tradename "hyperol".

[Edited on 27-1-2006 by Axt]

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