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Magpie
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[*] posted on 28-10-2014 at 08:48


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
The document states that it is expected that 100 to 200 people will apply for a permit each year (in the Netherlands) and it is expected that nearly all of these permits will be granted. A permit will be valid for a period of two years.


This sounds like good news for you Woelen, at least relative to what's happening to our members in the UK. I am glad to hear this as I think it would be a real shame if you had to abandon this hobby which you so obviously love. This would also be a huge loss as you are of great benefit to not only this forum but to chemistry education in general.




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[*] posted on 28-10-2014 at 18:56


I am quite encouraged to read that the situation looks more positive for you than it did before. I've always enjoyed looking through the various experiments that you have posted on your website. All I can do is watch the goings on in the EU from my perch on the other side of the world, and hope the situation improves.

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[*] posted on 5-11-2014 at 09:56


It seems like the situation is not much better than in the UK. A dutch company, selling HNO3 and H2O2 is willing to help its customers to obtain a license and they have had contact with the dutch government. The reaction was 'positive', but the company was told immediately that nearly no permits will be granted. The decision is made solely by some government expert, and it is expected that this expert will deny nearly all requests for a permit.

For people, able to read dutch here is the link to the above-mentioned company:
http://www.werkenmetmerken.nl/nl/nieuwe_regelgeving_watersto...

I do not expect that 'scientific experiments' will be sufficent reason to grant a permit.

The rules will be effected at Januari 1, 2015.




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[*] posted on 6-11-2014 at 14:05


Interesting.
I wander if the government employee judging the applicants has a well defined set of rules by which he/she makes the calls. I think 'scientific experiments' qualifies very well as a purpose for which no other suitable chemicals are available. Its much better then 'etching' for instance.


When applying for a permit, would you need to specify which of the regulated chemicals you need to use, or does the permit allow all of them?

Also, does holding a permit involve regular inspections of your premises? Then you would need make very certain to comply with environmental laws, "arbowet" (Dutch law regarding occupational conditions), etc.




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[*] posted on 6-11-2014 at 14:51



Yes, etching indeed!.
You can purchase Ammonium Nitrate (Calcium Ammonium Nitrate) in ton lots for making grass grow thick and green.
No doubt each and every ball (prill) will be placed diligently onto the grass field and will be seen and documented to have been placed onto the grass field (and the person will wait until the ball has dissolved) by a suitably qualified government official.

I seen a great product in my local agri supply store made my ECO Labs (LOL) some time ago.
A mixture containing Nitric and Sulphuric acid for cleaning milking machines. I don't know the %'s.
No doubt a government official will see that each and every ml of the product.......
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[*] posted on 10-11-2014 at 12:57


My mum now owns a BIOTECHNOLOGY company, mainly so I can continue to make soap and learn chemistry, however I have some bad news for people thinking that buying these chemicals with a license in the UK is going to be easy.
We have just brought 1 litre of conc Nitric acid using the company details etc, we used a well known supplier and sent all relevant company information, they emailed back a form....................
On the form it asks for what purpose you want the acid, we tried many different versions of general reagent, carrying out X,Y,Z experiment and each was met with a refusal to supply. Even with a license you must state the exact intended purpose for the chemical, if you say you want Nitric acid for X reason and actually use it for something else you commit an offense.
So in the UK even with a LTD company getting chemicals isnt that easy anymore. Also my dads lab at the uni he works part time has been refused Hydrogen peroxide because the form they sent in with the order gave reaction vessel cleaning as a reason for use. It was refused on the grounds that the reason wasnt specific enough.
Its a major concern when a top UK uni starts to get problems ordering chemicals, the stupid thing is my dad went to see our GP (Doctor) who wrote him a prescription for 30% hydrogen peroxide (5 litres) and he brought it for the lab at llyods the chemist, he only had to wait 48 hours for them to get it.
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[*] posted on 10-11-2014 at 13:10


Really glad I don't live in the UK right now. Sheesh.
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[*] posted on 11-11-2014 at 06:06


The EU regulation is very strict, the reason that this new regulation is made (unilateral by EU) is one incident that was caused by Breivik. He would like to see to the world how easy it is to make a bomb and kill many peoples. The EU did respond on that, way too fast.

The majority of terroristic chemical attacks aren't a result of a crazy psychotic man, they buy chemicals on multi-tonnes scale, I have no money to buy these rockets at all and, I'm not crazy.

Ok, but if I read the current EU article they mention that this is legal
3% (m/m) H2O2 (not even more concentrated)
very diluted nitric acid
diluted nitromethane

These are the most important chemicals that are listed.

Nitric acid is a very common reagent, however you can buy calcium nitrate in huge amounts and let it react with sulphuric acid or phosphoric acid to get concentrated HNO3

Political decisions are taken very rapidly (this is one example), they don't think about the consequences: it get on the black market very rapidly and fuel the orginized crime. This is the result of this EU-regulation but they don't understand it and don't listen to us.

Yes, exceptions are possible if the country request it, e.a. to protect retailers.




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[*] posted on 11-11-2014 at 08:35


I think calcium nitrate is also made illegal (along with sodium and potassium). I remember this, because at first I thought it was ridiculous to ban such incredibly hygroscopic substance (totally useless as an explosive).
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[*] posted on 12-11-2014 at 09:52


Quote: Originally posted by DrMario  
I think calcium nitrate is also made illegal (along with sodium and potassium). I remember this, because at first I thought it was ridiculous to ban such incredibly hygroscopic substance (totally useless as an explosive).


AFAIK, you can buy KNO3 and NaNO3 in EU but there is a quota (I don't know exactly how much but too much for a hobby lab). I'm just back from Asia they are boosting because they don't have those rules. Money counts in Asia, I did hear >100 times a day the word Money.

I was in east-Java to rebuild a house from the old Dutch colonies. It looks awesome. Since they don't can pay a doctor, you can buy everything without prescription but they deliver just a small amount not in a box. Again, money counts right there.

I would like to show my development work on Java, in the thread "Who I'am" if I have more time.

Calcium nitrate is brownish because it's hygroscopic, it's not a problem with sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate.

Java




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[*] posted on 12-11-2014 at 11:00


Quote: Originally posted by JAVA  
Quote: Originally posted by DrMario  
I think calcium nitrate is also made illegal (along with sodium and potassium). I remember this, because at first I thought it was ridiculous to ban such incredibly hygroscopic substance (totally useless as an explosive).


AFAIK, you can buy KNO3 and NaNO3 in EU but

I'm not talking about the present situation, but the new rules that have been decided and are about to be implemented beginning next year.
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[*] posted on 13-11-2014 at 00:22


I do not know of rules which prohibit sale of KNO3 and NaNO3 to individuals in the EU. According to the new regulations, the compounds, which may not be sold anymore (and may not be possessed anymore after March 2, 2016) are HNO3, H2O2, CH3NO2, KClO3, NaClO3, KClO4, NaClO4, at concentrations above certain limits. In the Netherlands, apparently, these new regulations become effective at January 1, 2015. All EU countries MUST have implemented the new regulations within 18 months, counting from Sep. 2, 2014. After these 18 months, sales AND possession of these chemicals is forbidden without a license. The UK enforces the rules from Sep. 2, the Netherlands seems to have these rules at Jan. 1, 2015.



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[*] posted on 13-11-2014 at 12:39


The main point is being missed, yes you can get a license, but you have to list EVERY use you will use the chemical for, IF you are found to do something else with it then you break the law, so you cant just say I want hydrogen peroxide to clean aerobic bio chamber, we tried that and it was rejected, we were asked what the bio reactor was for, when pushed on it the company (apcpure) stated that if we put dairy vessel cleaning on the form and then used it to clean say a ethanol vessel then we break the terms of the license.
Woelen is better placed to tell how most of the EU is going to respond but the UK has gone way above what the actual legal requirement is.
The problem is going to be getting hold of the chemical, the problem is the actual license itself, in the UK it isnt a case of having a license to posses the chemical, but the license also dictates what the chemical is used for. Every time you use it for something you didnt declare you have to change the details, the chemical supplier then decides if this is a good reason/use.
From what I have seen with 3 separate companies in the UK, even LTD companies are finding it really hard to get hydrogen peroxide 30% for some normal uses, the chemical companies are really frightened in the uk that if they dont comply 110% then they will be in serious trouble, so they even now before the real rules take effect we are seeing a over the top reaction.


NOW lets look at the other side of it

Policeing it

The local police around where I live have been honest and said that unless they had significant evidence we were making weapons then they dont have the time or manpower to go looking around people labs, they also pointed out that every time they raid a lab it costs them £1500 in costs for the expert witness to come with them.
The police budget is so crushed in the uk that our local police hardly patrol now because of fuel costs, they wait for a 999 call then respond.

Interesting to see how other EU countries are applying the rules, I doubt the UK will be in europe within the next 3 years anyway
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[*] posted on 23-11-2014 at 15:17


Just imagine the amount of manpower/money involved only processing application forms.

If we are lucky, they will realise sooner rather than later that this is an extremely ineffective way to combat terrorism in terms of "injuries/deaths prevented per euro spend", given the very large number of perfectly reasonable reasons someone might want to have some of these chemicals and laboratories and industries that use them.

[Edited on 23-11-2014 by phlogiston]




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[*] posted on 24-11-2014 at 00:08


And this is exactly the problem. The answer to this problem will be that no permits will be granted. Every request simply will be denied. That is very cost-effective. No time needed to investigate the personal background of the person and to investigate the validity of the indended use. I can even imagine that the process of denying requests can (and will) be automated so that costs are reduced even more.



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[*] posted on 4-1-2015 at 13:18


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
And this is exactly the problem. The answer to this problem will be that no permits will be granted. Every request simply will be denied.


Which is the same thing as stating the UK is outlawing home science. At what point do the citizens of the UK (and the EU in general) begin to wonder whether or not their own government has become more freaking insane than the terrorists? The link below is exhibit A as an example of the mindless lawmaking in question.

http://www.infowars.com/uk-government-crafts-anti-terror-pla...




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[*] posted on 6-1-2015 at 06:45


Quote: Originally posted by DrMario  
I think calcium nitrate is also made illegal (along with sodium and potassium). I remember this, because at first I thought it was ridiculous to ban such incredibly hygroscopic substance (totally useless as an explosive).

It is likely banned because it could be used to make nitric acid or other nitrates.

Ca(NO3)2 + K2SO4 --> 2KNO3 + CaSO4 (insoluble, just filter)

Ca(NO3)2 + (NH4)2SO4 --> 2NH4NO3 + CaSO4 (same method)

[Edited on 6-1-2015 by Praxichys]




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[*] posted on 6-1-2015 at 20:49


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
And this is exactly the problem. The answer to this problem will be that no permits will be granted. Every request simply will be denied. That is very cost-effective. No time needed to investigate the personal background of the person and to investigate the validity of the indended use. I can even imagine that the process of denying requests can (and will) be automated so that costs are reduced even more.



@Woelen

Would it be possible to go to court (Court of Justice of the European Union)?
Art 13 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf says:
[...]Article 13
Freedom of the arts and sciences
The arts and scientific research shall be free of constraint. Academic freedom shall be respected.
[...]

Bj68

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[*] posted on 6-1-2015 at 21:12


It does seem the laws governing certain chemicals are at odds with the EU charter. Not being in Europe I am not sure how that works in court.
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[*] posted on 7-1-2015 at 02:47


Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  


@Woelen

Would it be possible to go to court (Court of Justice of the European Union)?
Art 13 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf says:
[...]Article 13
Freedom of the arts and sciences
The arts and scientific research shall be free of constraint. Academic freedom shall be respected.
[...]

Bj68


I do not expect anything from that. They will say that scientific research is not done at home, but only at suitable labs, or by companies who have a certain interest in the subject, or by universities and maybe some schools. Only official institutions and registered companies will be accepted.




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[*] posted on 7-1-2015 at 05:02


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  


@Woelen

Would it be possible to go to court (Court of Justice of the European Union)?
Art 13 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf says:
[...]Article 13
Freedom of the arts and sciences
The arts and scientific research shall be free of constraint. Academic freedom shall be respected.
[...]

Bj68


I do not expect anything from that. They will say that scientific research is not done at home, but only at suitable labs, or by companies who have a certain interest in the subject, or by universities and maybe some schools. Only official institutions and registered companies will be accepted.


The existence of this forum (and others like it) shows that research is sometimes done at home.
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[*] posted on 7-1-2015 at 09:18


Quote: Originally posted by unionised  

The existence of this forum (and others like it) shows that research is sometimes done at home.
Unfortunately, the existence of this (and other forums) also shows that the chemicals in question can be (and often are) used to easily and illegally manufacture drugs and explosives. Further, a few members have been seriously injured or killed in such endeavors.

I do agree that we appear to be stunting early educational growth and curiosity in the name of public safety, but an argument like this to a non-chemist is a foregone conclusion.

One wonders what youth will be like in 50 years.

When my grandfather was in school, the teacher made nitroglycerin.
When my father was in school, he played with mercury.
When I was in school, I dissected a fetal pig.
My youngest cousin just "dissected" a frog "virtually" on a computer, because knives are dangerous. Chemistry consists of paper puzzle pieces with polyatomic ions written on them, rearranged on the table. Because beakers could break and injure someone, I guess.

[Edited on 7-1-2015 by Praxichys]




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[*] posted on 7-1-2015 at 15:41


Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
I do agree that we appear to be stunting early educational growth and curiosity in the name of public safety, but an argument like this to a non-chemist is a foregone conclusion.

One wonders what youth will be like in 50 years.

When my grandfather was in school, the teacher made nitroglycerin.
When my father was in school, he played with mercury.
When I was in school, I dissected a fetal pig.
My youngest cousin just "dissected" a frog "virtually" on a computer, because knives are dangerous. Chemistry consists of paper puzzle pieces with polyatomic ions written on them, rearranged on the table. Because beakers could break and injure someone, I guess.


The safety culture here at UCSD is better, but not much.

Even grad students can't synthesize things like TATP here or use mercury for experiments.

I'm trying to get some lab space for shooting video but I haven't really been successful.




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[*] posted on 9-1-2015 at 09:03


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=54269&...
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[*] posted on 4-7-2015 at 10:01


I've been out of the hobby for a while (due to innocuous, irrelevant reasons) and I've just learnt about this. So it seems the thin end of the wedge has been driven in a little further. I keep telling myself I'll get round to my projects one day and I'm really starting to wonder if such days are numbered.

From the relevant gov.uk page:
Quote:

"After 3 March 2016, it is an offence to possess or use a regulated substance without holding a valid EPP licence issued by the Home Office.
If found guilty of this offence, there is a maximum penalty of 2 years’ imprisonment and/or a fine."


strontiumred already posted the regulated & reportable lists. I'd already been operating under the paranoia/assumption that anything mildly interesting would be reported, so it's the former list which is of greatest concern. No more possession of nitric acid - unless you stick to experiments requiring 3% or less. In reality, one could minimise risk of arrest and manufacture what nitric acid etc. is required at the time and dispose of excess, but you'd still be breaking the law.

Personally, I've quite enjoyed being able to operate legally (in spite of the potential lack of societal acceptance) and this has left me wondering whether I should dispose of / react materials so I only have what is permitted, or take the risk and hold on to them, hoping that no one ever comes knocking.
Or do I try to apply for the license...?

What do my fellow UK chemists think?
What do you intend to do with your stocks?
I know you've all got a little conc. nitric knocking about...




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