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Author: Subject: Readily Available Chemicals Website: Version 2
I am a fish
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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 05:00
Readily Available Chemicals Website: Version 2


I've massively updated my Readily Available Chemicals website.

I have abandoned the table based format in favour of a far less restrictive layout, which enables me to add more information. I have also listed appropriate suppliers with each chemical (rather than having a separate page listing all suppliers). Last but not least, I have added many new chemicals to the list

There are almost certainly some mistakes in the list, and I would appreciate them being pointed out. Comments, further information and constructive criticism are all welcome.

[Edited on 19-1-2005 by I am a fish]




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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 06:30


Wow, thats great. I lfind the layout alot simpler and easier to interpret.

Also like the way you have a section for organic and inorganic chemicals.

Good job.




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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 07:59


Might be only an oversight, but I don't see "Dry Ice" under the carbon dioxide listing. I don't know about availability in Europe, but it can easily be bought here in Asia.

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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 11:27


Listing specific sources by name is damn stupid and irresponsible. Things are hard enough as it is without idiots drawing attention to these things.
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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 12:25


Quote:
Originally posted by LeonardNimoy
Listing specific sources by name is damn stupid and irresponsible. Things are hard enough as it is without idiots drawing attention to these things.


It depends on what you mean by "these things". As your only other contributions to this forum have concerned the synthesis of a mescaline precursor, it is pretty obvious what your real problem is.

The list is intended to help amateur chemists. I couldn't care less about the opinions of drug makers. If a supplier starts monitoring its customers, that's not my problem, as I have nothing to hide.


Quote:
Might be only an oversight, but I don't see "Dry Ice" under the carbon dioxide listing. I don't know about availability in Europe, but it can easily be bought here in Asia.


Thanks. Who sells it and what is it sold for?




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thumbup.gif posted on 19-1-2005 at 12:31
Looks great


Thanks Mr. I am a fish, I, and I’m sure most other members are very appreciative for the time and effort you put into you’re list. Sure there are a few mindless morons who cannot appreciate your list for what it is but hey, *fuck em*!
I for one am overly-joyed that you have updated you’re list, please keep up the great work. Your work does not go un-noticed or un-appreciated. Thanks.::)
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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 13:06


I will second that. Great job! Being a total novice I didnt even know about most of the chemicals listed. I especially like the way you have the OTC name of the product and the chemical formula, very helpful. Downloaded it straight away and burned it to disk. Dont ever want to lose it. Cheers.
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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 13:18


Great site:)

In regards to dry ice, "Air liquide" sells it, they are an international company with stores open to the public in most cities. The outlet in my city has a big sign outside stating "We have dry ice":D I have not went there yet. I do not know what it is sold for, but putting it in drinks for the spooky effect may be an accepted excuse.



[Edited on 19-1-2005 by rogue chemist]




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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 13:45


Hehe I use your list all the time - thanks for updating it!:D

As for the wanna - bee:P Chill out! Hes not listing your skeachy Sch 2 suppliers just regular chem companies and OTC stores
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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 14:53


People usually use it for flash-freezing fish while they're still out on the water while fishing. Also, it'll keep the contents of your refridgerator from spoiling if you have a power outage.
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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 17:40


Quote:

It depends on what you mean by "these things". As your only other contributions to this forum have concerned the synthesis of a mescaline precursor, it is pretty obvious what your real problem is.

The list is intended to help amateur chemists. I couldn't care less about the opinions of drug makers. If a supplier starts monitoring its customers, that's not my problem, as I have nothing to hide.


Your post displays both sanctimony and invalid deduction. Perhaps if you were a little more thoughtful and a little less self-righteous, you might appear more measured. Knowing how to do something is not the same as doing it.

It is not matter of surveillance, it is a matter of named sources drying up. If so-and-so starts getting scores of spotty herberts ordering nitric acid or solvents, there is a good chance they will stop stocking the item due to fears of misuse. That is why specific outlets should not be named.

[Edited on 20-1-2005 by LeonardNimoy]
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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 18:01


It isn't particularly measured to say that 'Listing specific sources by name is damn stupid and irresponsible'.

You get what you ask for.

Anyway - I suggest you read the FAQ on his website, it debates this issue quite nicely. Furthermore, I also suggest you read the first thread on the 'Readily Available Chemicals' website. There has been plenty of discussion on this subject. Do you actually realise how much work he must have put into this?

I am a fish - could you please put up the orignial pages that just listed the suppliers?

[Edited on 20-1-2005 by chemoleo]




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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 18:14
Out of appreciation and respect


"I am fish" That took some serious time and resources and I commend you on your effort. That is why, out of goodwill I would like to point out something. On many ceramic type inorganics you list "Clayartcenter" as the sole American source. That website has been down for at least a year and I do not think they are coming back. I have 2 ceramic links here in the us if you are interested. I hope to only help and I do not mean to be too critical. Just let me know if you want those links.



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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 20:55


@LeonardNimoy: Your post displays both arrogance and ignorance. The list, as mentioned, was created (with much dedication by I am a fish) for amatuer hobbyists, not drug makers.

Based on your reputation here, I believe you have little grounds for criticism.

When it comes to things such as nitric acid, customers are usually under suspicion for ordering certain combinations of chemicals (for example, those who find it wise to buy bulk amounts of nitric acid and pentaerythritol at the same time). Are you aware that nitric acid has uses other than explosives?

Also mentioned by I am a fish, most of us have nothing to hide. We are not all clandestine drug makers. We are interested in chemistry in general, not just one area of it.

I am a fish has contributed greatly to the forum for generating this list, and he should be congratulated, not criticised.

Whats your problem?




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[*] posted on 20-1-2005 at 03:03


Quote:
Originally posted by LeonardNimoy
Your post displays both sanctimony and invalid deduction. Perhaps if you were a little more thoughtful and a little less self-righteous, you might appear more measured.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

I was merely following your example. If you don't like my "sanctimony", then you should reconsider your own posting style.

Quote:
Knowing how to do something is not the same as doing it.


I find it difficult to believe that someone would be so interested in the practical details of a drug synthesis, without planning to do it. Yes, some people are merely interested in the chemistry involved, but those people also post to other topics. Futhermore, you seem remarkably aggressive for someone who has nothing to hide.

Quote:
It is not matter of surveillance, it is a matter of named sources drying up. If so-and-so starts getting scores of spotty herberts ordering nitric acid or solvents, there is a good chance they will stop stocking the item due to fears of misuse. That is why specific outlets should not be named.


Plenty of the sources listed are well known, yet they remain available. Name one example of a source drying up as a consequence of amateur chemists using it.




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[*] posted on 20-1-2005 at 03:16


Thankyou everyone for your comments.

Quote:
Originally posted by chloric1
On many ceramic type inorganics you list "Clayartcenter" as the sole American source. That website has been down for at least a year and I do not think they are coming back. I have 2 ceramic links here in the us if you are interested. I hope to only help and I do not mean to be too critical. Just let me know if you want those links.


Don't worry. I appreciate all valid criticism. I assumed that it was merely the website that had gone down. Has the whole company folded? I would be very interested in those links.


Quote:
Originally posted by chemoleo
could you please put up the orignial pages that just listed the suppliers?


Yes. However, it will need a bit of work (in order to add all the new companies).




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[*] posted on 20-1-2005 at 09:20


OKEY DOkey;)
http://www.seattlepotterysupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv; US Pigment Corp.

OK I am not perfect at inserting links yet but the URL for the US Pigment is simply that name .com I tested the links and they work so enjoy and have a look! Want to buy selenium for $35 a pound!!?? Have a peek!:D

[Edited on 1/20/2005 by chloric1]

[Edited on 1/20/2005 by chloric1]




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[*] posted on 20-1-2005 at 11:33


Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

Hypocrisy, yes, what of it?
Quote:
I was merely following your example. If you don't like my "sanctimony", then you should reconsider your own posting style.

But you were being sanctimonious, your argument does not follow.
Quote:
I find it difficult to believe that someone would be so interested in the practical details of a drug synthesis, without planning to do it. Yes, some people are merely interested in the chemistry involved, but those people also post to other topics.

So every chemistry graduate is an [illegal] drug manufacturer? Again, your argument does not follow.
Quote:
Futhermore, you seem remarkably aggressive for someone who has nothing to hide.

If I had something to hide, would that make me aggresive? Am I in fact aggressive? If I didn't have something to hide, would I not be aggressive? In fact, what am I supposed to have to hide? Your argument is absurd.
Quote:
Plenty of the sources listed are well known, yet they remain available.

Expressly linking to particular outlets and web addresses from the url hyperdeath, listing readily available chemicals is going to draw attention to the practice. This is what I stated, not the remainder of the information. The current climate is litigious and paranoid about drugs and explosives. You threaten the availability of these sources by doing so.
Quote:
Name one example of a source drying up as a consequence of amateur chemists using it.

As you should know, absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.

Forgive me for rattling your cage. Your fellow jam jar and turkey baster enthusiasts have leapt to your defense. However, despite all the histrionics and flying spittle, you have ignored the original point, that in an attempt to gain adulation from the foot lickers, you are damaging sources.
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[*] posted on 20-1-2005 at 11:49


Whoa easy there.
Adulation - do you think he needs that? Wtf? What kind of world do you live in, where you do things for 'adulation'?
Rather than being a cynic, you could equally just regard the compliments as genuine, and most probably are. Not much is gained here by 'footlicking' I believe.

Anyway, your view is that 'sources' might get damaged by compiling them into a list. Others view is that those sources are not compromised (as these are no secret), and i should think only very rarely sources could possibly be compromised.
Drawing attention to these things- do you honestly think, some authorties are NOT aware of the HiVe, this forum, or E&W, and then suddenly snap into action when they discover the link list, and start banning lots of chemicals? Don't you think the people who determine which chems are to be banned from the general public are professionals who know the use or abuse of those chems on those linked sites anyway? What, and listing this openly suddenly causes them to ban everything, from H2SO4 for batteries, pool chlorinators, paint strippers, pottery pigments, photographic chemicals, and so on, just because some people may become more aware of their relative ease of availability? Comon. It would have happened long since if this had been the case.

Please, indulge me on a scenario, how the listing of sources would cause them to dry up.

[Edited on 20-1-2005 by chemoleo]




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[*] posted on 20-1-2005 at 13:39


Quote:
Originally posted by LeonardNimoy
Hypocrisy, yes, what of it? ... But you were being sanctimonious, your argument does not follow.


Your original post was dripping with sanctimony. Therefore it's hypocritical to complain about me being sanctimonious.

Quote:
So every chemistry graduate is an [illegal] drug manufacturer? Again, your argument does not follow.


I never said that. Attack what I say rather than beating a strawman.

Quote:
If I had something to hide, would that make me aggresive? Am I in fact aggressive? If I didn't have something to hide, would I not be aggressive? In fact, what am I supposed to have to hide? Your argument is absurd.


You are being exceedingly agressive. The word has a wider scope than the starting of fights in bars. Since you have nothing to hide, you could explain your so far exclusive interest in drugs making.

Quote:
Expressly linking to particular outlets and web addresses from the url hyperdeath, listing readily available chemicals is going to draw attention to the practice. This is what I stated, not the remainder of the information. The current climate is litigious and paranoid about drugs and explosives. You threaten the availability of these sources by doing so.


Again, please provide evidence. Many companies are frequently discussed on the forum and yet they remain open for business. If my site is such a threat, then surely the forum itself must have caused significant damage. Please give me an example of this damage.

Quote:
As you should know, absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.


That is perfectly true. However it is applicable to virtually anything. If I was to say that there was a teapot in orbit around Pluto (to borrow an analogy from Richard Dawkins), you would rightly ask for evidence. It would be absurd of me to protect my statement by saying "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". It would be true, but it ignores the fact that disproving the statement is essentially impossible. It is a basic logical rule that the burden of proof lies with the person making the positive proposition. Which of the following is (in principle) easier?

1. Finding a single example of a chemical source drying up due to amateur chemists using it.

2. Researching each and every company in recent global history and demonstrating that they have not stopped selling chemicals due to the custom of amateur chemists.

Your proposition is effectively impossible to disprove. Without supporting evidence it is worthless.

Quote:
Forgive me for rattling your cage. Your fellow jam jar and turkey baster enthusiasts have leapt to your defense. However, despite all the histrionics and flying spittle, you have ignored the original point, that in an attempt to gain adulation from the foot lickers, you are damaging sources


Yet I'm the sanctimonious one...

Provide evidence that I am damaging sources and you'll have a valid point.


[Edited on 20-1-2005 by I am a fish]




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[*] posted on 21-1-2005 at 03:58


From my perceptive, LeonardNimoy is trying to compensate intelligence with argumentivity. It's not a case of I am a fish destroying sources, it's a case of LeonardNimoy destroying his reputation here (If it isn't considered destroyed already).

Quote:
Forgive me for rattling your cage. Your fellow jam jar and turkey baster enthusiasts have leapt to your defense. However, despite all the histrionics and flying spittle, you have ignored the original point, that in an attempt to gain adulation from the foot lickers, you are damaging sources.


I believe your losing your welcome here as fast as your exposing your arrogance. Is there a point to your argument, or are you simply looking for an excuse for one?




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[*] posted on 21-1-2005 at 08:03


The fact of the matter still remains that 90% of the chemicals on his website are very common. Just because his website lists the sources doesn't mean they will stop selling it. To do so would be ludicrous. There are chemicals that you should never post a source to if you find one. However, I feel this list doesn't cross that line in any way.

Contrary to what the government wants you to believe not all individual chemists are involved in illegal activities. Not everyone who has a computer is a black hat hacker even though they all have the tools to be one. When the government becomes so draconian that they impede my persuit of knowledge, in any academic field, and brainwash the general public to believe this mantra then it's time to fight back. This list is simply a tool to combat the oppressive nature of the world we live in today.

If you don't like the list then don't use it. If your sources are on that list and you are inclinded to do so then find new sources.

[Edited on 21-1-2005 by Astrum]
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[*] posted on 21-1-2005 at 08:42


Guess I have little to add about "Dry Ice", except that some ice shops sell it to ice cream makers here, and that SFX suppliers for discos sell it too, for the smoky/hazy effect you sometimes see at rave parties. Mind you, though, it ain't cheap.

Hate to jump into the fray, but it would be absurd for a government agency to ban all available chemicals if only for the fact that they can be abused. Time to complain if things come to that.

I don't think the companies would mind the free advertising, either... ;)

sparky

P.S. to Chris/I am a fish: I haven't read your list in full, so a critique from me might be delayed. Keep it up, though. Not everyone takes the time to help his fellow amateurs.

P.P.S. I usually get my Dry Ice, though, from a friend of mine who sells ice cream. At the end of a typical business day, he gives me substantially useful chunks of the stuff whenever I ask for it. It really helps to have rapport with a lot of people. :)

[Edited on 21-1-2005 by sparkgap]
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[*] posted on 27-1-2005 at 09:25


Great list! I didn't know this existed before, so I'm extra happy.

I also thought I'd contribute a small bit with some experience I've had buying chems.

Just one little note: for isopropyl alcohol, it is not mentioned that it can be bought, 99% pure at your local pharmacy. Same with 95% ehtanol. It's a tad expensive though. The ethanol really isn't worth buying as it's reall expensive but I haven't seen isopropyl sold anwhere else.

Methanol is sold in 4L containers at my loal home depot at 99.9% purity (or so the label claims) as 'methyl hydrate'. It's used as a solvent or a camping stove fuel.
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[*] posted on 27-1-2005 at 10:24


Quote:
Originally posted by Chris The Great
Same with 95% ehtanol. It's a tad expensive though. The ethanol really isn't worth buying as it's reall expensive...


Do you know what the other 5% is? If it is methanol (or another denaturant), you're right in saying that it's bad value. However, if the remainder is water, it will be subject to liquor duty. If so, it may not be bad value for what it is.




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