Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Picric acid: different instructions


	Not logged in [Login ]

FAQ

Member List

Today's Posts Forum Stats

Stats

Back to:

Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special Topics » Energetic Materials » Picric acid: different instructions

Printable Version

Pages: 1 .. 13 14 15 16 17 .. 31

Rosco Bodine

Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

posted on 23-11-2009 at 05:07

Probably the use of salicylic acid as the precursor would be better adaptable to the synthesis which has been described by myself and confirmed by ordenblitz as being useful for the acetylsalicylic acid precursor. You could use a bit more, maybe 20% more H2SO4 than the minimum proportion which has been described, in order to have a thinner reaction mixture which is easier to stir. Anyway picric acid is not a deflagrating material like smokeless powder but it should definitely give a good snap from a sharp impact of steel on steel, and it should be capable of initiation, although with some difficulty because it is not a very sensitive material at all, requiring a persuasive initiator which generally knocks the doggie doo out of it in order to achieve its effective initiation.

Have a fairy nice day

franklyn

International Hazard

Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 29-12-2009 at 00:53

The following two papers could be useful in a two stage process for TNP

Highly Accelerated Microwave Assisted Aromatic Nitration with Dilute Nitric Acid
http://www.envirofacs.org/Pre-prints/Vol%2039%20No%201/Paper...

Salicylic Acid Nitration by Means of Nitric Acid/Acetic Acid System
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/op060148o
Direct download here _
http://www.aseanbiotechnology.info/Abstract/21020685.pdf

Someone may want to request these two in the references section _

Batch salicylic acid nitration by nitric acid/acetic acid mixture
under isothermal, isoperibolic and adiabatic conditions
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S030438940600623...

Solubilities of Salicylic Acid in Pure Solvents and Binary Mixtures Containing Cosolvent
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/je800475d
May have use in processing aspirin to rid it of binders.

.

Rosco Bodine

Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

posted on 29-12-2009 at 02:22

I sure as hell wouldn't subject precursor aromatics beyond the dinitration stage
to microwave radiation under nitration conditions, because it smacks of a fools errand. What's cooking in the microwave is a sprengel explosive.

franklyn

International Hazard

Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 29-12-2009 at 10:45

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

I sure as hell wouldn't subject precursor aromatics beyond the dinitration stage
to microwave radiation under nitration conditions, because it smacks of a fools errand.
What's cooking in the microwave is a sprengel explosive.

Did I imply that ? or are you stating the obvious to the foolhardy.
Rapid exotherm is a problem as it is , no need to go to afterburners.

The second paper outlines a conventional process yielding mononitro
product using 70 % HNO3 in AcOH - which I can add is potentially
detonable, there is also serious risk of ignition that is overlooked.

The first paper outlines initial nitration by microwave in water containing
15 % HNO3 yielding mainly dinitro products even a small amount of trinitro
product in less than three minutes !
Most details are in the middle two pages , it's only four pages.
Or is it true you can't teach old dogs new tricks

Rosco Bodine

Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

posted on 29-12-2009 at 16:25

If nitrosalicylic acid was the desired end product, or use of a dilute nitric acid for preliminary nitration was a goal, maybe the microwave process could have value there. But for picric acid as a desired product it would seem that involving a sulfonated intermediate, a sulfosalicylic acid, and thermally driven nitration
would be safer and more predictable. My opinion about the inherent danger is based upon a prediction and expectation that it will take a lot more HNO3 concentration than 15% to achieve the trinitration, and that seems like a
dangerous mixture of (oxidizer) which is also the nitration agent to be in mixture with a material which is already explosive at the dinitration stage, being heated
in a way that could generate hot spots within the mass.....which is precisely the thing wished to be avoided for the safe and smooth nitration of anything.

franklyn

International Hazard

Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 30-12-2009 at 16:12

" If nitrosalicylic acid was the desired end product, or use of a dilute nitric acid for
preliminary nitration was a goal, maybe the microwave process could have value there."

This is the point I expressed in the opening line of my initial post
" could be useful in a two stage process for TNP ".
The inherent problem with mixed acid nitration is that as the process proceeds ,
the HNO3 if it is not fortified becomes less concentrated as it is consumed ,
precisely opposite to what is desired to obtain the trinitro end product. Indeed
according to COPAE benzene without an activating group attached requires
fuming HNO3 to obtain Trinitrobenzene. A reason why industrially aromatic
nitration as for toluene is done in stages.

" My opinion about the inherent danger is based upon a prediction and expectation
that it will take a lot more HNO3 concentration than 15% to achieve the trinitration,"

Initial mono or dinitro products can be made in a facile manner by this microwave
procedure and those in turn subjected to the conventional approach more
efficaciously it would seem , with better use of HNO3 and less wasted. As HNO3
is consumed in the microwave process and the concentration is reduced , the risk
you apprehend is self restrained. Which is very likely the reason so little trinitro
product is seen - no more HNO3. Timing here matters of course since allowing this
to go on would doubtlessly decompose the end product. Such application for the
disposal of energetics has been considered.

All this said , I absolutely concur with your discourse here _
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13187&...

.

[Edited on 31-12-2009 by franklyn]

Rosco Bodine

Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

posted on 30-12-2009 at 16:33

Ironically the depleted acid has a higher oxidizing effect so that
presents something of a dilemma with regards to the safety
when introducing the third nitro. It may be workable but it
isn't a process which on first look fills me with enthusiasm.

Hennig Brand

International Hazard

Posts: 1284
Registered: 7-6-2009
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 2-1-2010 at 13:26

Sorry for interrupting, I have a quick question.
Rosco, how much better is Na nitrate than K, or NH4 nitrate in an ASA nitration? I ask because I have never used sodium nitrate, and also because I just recently discovered that NaNO3 can easily be made from NH4NO3 and plain old baking soda. I didn' t realize this before, I think because I was only considering the solubilities of the two nitrates in a double displacement reaction. The trick is apparently to boil off and decompose the Ammonium bicarbonate, leaving you with pure sodium nitrate in solution. From a youtube video about this it shows two processes, one with the baking soda, and one with soda lye. For the NaHCO3 one, it says to take 80g of An and add it to 150mL of water. After everything that will dissolve has, filter onto 84g of NaHCO3. In a well ventilated area boil down to less than 100mL in a well ventilated area as a lot of ammonia is given off. Dehydrating what is left should yeild very pure sodium nitrate.
I thought maybe some weren' t aware of this either. Maybe this summer I will get a chance to try "Rosco' s good old country recipe".

I have a feeling that it will be far better than Potassium nitrate. What has been your observation Rosco?

Rosco Bodine

Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

posted on 2-1-2010 at 14:39

There hasn't really been any charted comparison study done by me to compare the efficiency of the different nitrates. I haven't tried all of the possible combinations to really optimize the process in terms of economy of acid or
other goals, but mainly was trying to a achieve a pure end product with
reasonable economy and safety, which proved to be predictable using
sodium nitrate. The lower solubility of the byproduct bisulfate when using
the potassium nitrate requires a greater proportion of acid to maintain a stirrable reaction mixture, so it is less economical and therefore no effort was made
to really optimize a procedure using the potassium nitrate, although it did
seem that it can be substituted in a similar procedure where it may work as well with adjusted proportions and other reaction parameters adjusted for tuning the reaction to accommodate whatever differences are encountered. The same is possibly true for a nitration using ammonium nitrate, but this is not certain, and it is also possible that use of a nitrates mixture or a two stage process may be workable, but such schemes add complexity. There are different behaviors about the nitration which are observed depending upon the temperatures, and the
water content and the particular nitrate used. The most common mistake that people make in approaching the nitration is being fearful of the heating which
is required to maintain the reaction system at a point where it is responsive to
reaction rate control achieved by rate of addition of the nitrate, compounded
by impatience about the time required to observe the delayed effect of each
addition and pace the process of additions accordingly. There is a responsiveness to additions which is not linear but changes as the nitration proceeds. What most people have described as "runaways" are actually delayed inductions of an avalanche rate increase, due to too low a starting temperature and too rapid addition of nitrate which causes accumulation of unreacted material in a reaction mixture which becomes self heating and then avalanches on the rate increase consuming the unreacted material, as if it were putting a match to kindling. This is why keeping the temperature elevated but within limits and going slowly with additions of nitrate is essential to control the nitration rate.

Attached is the picric acid pages from Thorpe in which there is described a nitrate process involving water dilutions, Kohler, DRP 67074, which I am not certain is accurate for not having tested this. But there are different processes and variations which could be the basis for experiments, as there are many different ways of making picric acid.

One interesting experiment I would suggest involves the drying of picric acid by use of a dessicant, in order to see the pronounced color fading that occurs on the moisture loss.
I have suggested the use of amalgamated aluminum as a dessicant in posts in other threads, and this would seem to be an ideal dessicant for use in an exhaustive drying of a sample of picric acid.

Attachment: Picric Acid, Thorpe 1911, dictionary_of_applied_chemistry.pdf (687kB)
This file has been downloaded 1007 times

[Edited on 2-1-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand

International Hazard

Posts: 1284
Registered: 7-6-2009
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 2-1-2010 at 16:03

I had the sense that sodium nitrate made life much easier, if just from the TNP purification stage after nitration(the sulphate being much easier to deal with). I think there was also a sense that ammonium nitrate for some reason did not work well, which seemed counter intuitive(something to do with the ammonia or something?). I was going to try NANO3 long before now by making it from HNO3, but once I had the acid I figured I might as well use it. If making NANO3 is as easy as it looks from NH4NO3 with just a beaker, it is looking better and better. Thanks for the input. I don' t quite understand how amalgamated aluminum is going to be a good dessicant, but then I don' t know much about it really.
Rosco, you wouldn' t happen to have a good old country recipe for Pentaerythritol? That would be nifty.

Rosco Bodine

Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

posted on 2-1-2010 at 16:21

PETN is best made by the DuPont process and it has been posted before. Here's Rosco's "good ole country recipe"

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?goto=lastp...

Here is the patent DRP67074 I referenced earlier and it may be perfectly applicable to nitration of other precursors than phenol, or illustrates that there are nitrations possible which
can be done with acceptable efficiency in reaction mixtures where substantial water is present. I am not fluent in German but can only pick through it enough to get the general idea. Any insight others who know the language better may offer about this process is welcome.

Attachment: Picric Acid Process, Kohler, DE67074C.pdf (99kB)
This file has been downloaded 717 times

[Edited on 3-1-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand

International Hazard

Posts: 1284
Registered: 7-6-2009
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 2-1-2010 at 16:59

I won' t stray any more from the main topic after this. While I am interested in PETN, I was actually asking about PE. I was hoping there was an easy to follow method that could help me make this valuable precursor.
I regards to that other thread about Picric acid sensitivety, I think you are right. One of the main reasons I had such a hard time detonating my TNP samples for so long was that my perception was skewed by all the claims about TNP' s extreme sensitivety. I probably had a lot more success in the synthesis earlier on than I realized, since I was using the sensitivety as kind of an indicator of purity, etc. Picric Acid is very insensitive stuff, and unless there exists some very special conditions for which I am not aware, it is always relatively insensitive. I agree.
Thanks for the good links in the last post as well.

[Edited on 3-1-2010 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine

Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

posted on 2-1-2010 at 17:34

Sorry for my digression there about PETN, I saw you wrote PE and I'm not really sure what is the best method there. There is the classic method which presumes availability of acetaldehyde and formaldehyde as precursors, which are both actually less conveniently available due to storage and shipping issues, than is the more mundane PE itself which is cheap and nonhazardous. The classic synthesis for PE is in Organic Syntheses, Wiley. It is online unrestricted.

Taoiseach

Hazard to Others

Posts: 241
Registered: 16-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 3-1-2010 at 05:54

I can confirm that salicylic acid as precursor works very well.

Experimental

80g of dry SA were put in a 2L round bottom flask. 250ml conc. H2SO4 were gradually added with stirring. Heat was applied until the thermometer read 95°C; the mixture was then stirred for about 15min at this temperature and gradually turned into a vicsous yellow syrup.

The flask was then put outside and left to cool to about 45°C. At this temperature, 300ml conc. HNO3 were added in small portions. After acid addition was complete, the mixture was observed for about 30minutes. Not much happened, there was slight evolution of NOx fumes and little bubbling. Heat was then applied until the reaction became more vigorous. Unfortunately I was unable to read the thermometer as the whole flask was suddenly filled with thick red fumes and I was forced to leave the area

Basically I applied heat for a short time, then observed if the reaction would self-accelerate. If bubbling would subside, more heat was applied and so on. There's a fine line between adequate heating to get the reaction started and turning it into a runaway nitration. The fact that the flask was placed outside where it was freezing cold might have been a lucky coincidence that prevented runaway. Heating it to a certain temperature until the reaction gets going and then slightly cooling it might be the trick. At the point where the reaction suddenly became violent the thermometer was reading about 70°C if I remember correctly. I forgot to properly stir the solution while heating it, and that was definetly a mistake. It makes the reaction somewhat unprecitable because the solid cake of phenolsulfonic acid at some point gets crumbled by the gas evolution which further accelerates the reaction.

Anyways, after the reaction had subsided the flask was filled with glittering yellow crystals. No red goo or brown crap, just nice clean yellow picric acid

The flask was heated to 120°C for about 30 minutes, then left to cool. The picric acid was seperated by dumping the crystal mass in 3000ml cold water, stirring and filtering. The filter cake was pressed as dry as possible on filter paper and then recrystallized from a 1:2 water/EtOH mixture. A nice crop of potassium picrate was recovered by bringing the filtrate to boil and adding K2CO3 until no more gas evolved. The picrate started to precipate in beautiful hair-like needles almost instantly after the beaker was removed from the flame.

Yield is yet to be determined as the PA is drying over NaOH now. A small portion was thoroughly dried with a hair dryer, placed on concrete floor and given a good smack with a hammer, and Boom it went

[Edited on 3-1-2010 by Taoiseach]

entropy51

Gone, but not forgotten

Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline

Mood: Fissile

posted on 3-1-2010 at 08:43

Quote:

No red goo or brown crap, just nice clean yellow picric acid

Any idea how much of it is 5-nitrosalicylic acid, also nice yellow crystals?

Formatik

National Hazard

Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

posted on 6-1-2010 at 04:06

DE67074

First they change phenol into dinitrophenolic acid, this being done by: heating 100parts phenol with 1000 parts conc. H2SO4 at 80 deg. to convert it to phenolsulfonic acid. Then it's changed into nitro- and dinitrophenolsulfonic acid by adding 192 parts (2 Mol.) of dry powdered NaNO3 in small portions to the cool sulfonic acid. Then the temperature is let rise to 100 deg. After all is solubilized, it's slowly heated to 140 deg. Then it's diluted with water and to the hot solution, milk of lime is added until alkaline reaction. Filtering the gypsum, to obtain the calcium salt in the filtrate. Which is evaporated, and acidified with hydrochloric acid, dinitrophenolsulfonic acid precipitates.

One of the examples then puts this above obtained dinitrosulfonic acid directly into procedure where it's diluted with 320 parts water, and then in the still hot 80-90 deg. solution, 148 parts NaNO3 are added. Then it's heated for 2 hours at 140 deg. After cooling, the picric acid is separated from the sulfuric acid and precipitated sodium bisulfate, extracting the latter with water.

Rosco Bodine

Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

posted on 6-1-2010 at 05:23

From what I am reading ( more or less

) and trying to understand,

It looks like the better approach involves examples 2 and 4, where the initial sulfonation carried out at 160-170. That higher temperature of sulfonation
produces a phenol disulfonate, then mononitrated by one equivalent of NaNO3.

Then the mononitrophenoldisulfonate is diluted with water and the nitration is completed by use of an additional two and one half equivalents of NaNO3,
with the nitration completed as before by heating two hours at 140 C.

If I am understanding correctly by this approach there is no use of lime nor
isolation of the partially nitrated intermediate, as is done with the alternate
scheme involving examples 1 and 3.

Formatik

National Hazard

Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

posted on 8-1-2010 at 14:56

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

If I am understanding correctly by this approach there is no use of lime nor
isolation of the partially nitrated intermediate, as is done with the alternate
scheme involving examples 1 and 3.

No, that's wrong.

Example 2 is using phenol and conc. H2SO4 to get phenoldisulfonic acid, indeed mononitrated to nitrophenoldisulfonic acid. But then they say to precipitate the nitrodisulfonic acid, just like the dinitrosulfonic acid (from example1 which is also used in example3) using the calcium salt.

Example 4 converts phenol into nitrodisulfonic acid just like example 2.

Btw, I'm not sure if I'm right here since I haven't looked at these papers, but I believe nitrosalicylic acids are the result as long as temperature is controlled. Since if salicylic acid is nitrated with mixed acid below 10 deg., yield of 3- and 5-nitrosalicylic acid is near quantitative (Hirsch, Ber. 33, 3239), but heating salicylic acid with strong nitric acid converts it into picric acid (Marchand, J. pr. [1] 26, 397).

[Edited on 8-1-2010 by Formatik]

Rosco Bodine

Banned

Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

posted on 8-1-2010 at 19:29

What puzzles me is why they would use lime at all except for possibly a sample analysis where there would be an effort to precipitate and identify intermediate products which are present in a nitration mixture ? It is a one pot nitration
which has no requirement for being separated into two stages, so the generation of waste byproducts like gypsum is no advantage that is at first apparent.

Formatik

National Hazard

Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

posted on 8-1-2010 at 19:39

I couldn't agree more.

Sometimes patent inventors come up with quirky, kooky, hula-hoop methods they hope will be carried over into the industrial setting.

franklyn

International Hazard

Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 15-1-2010 at 12:25

Continued from this post abaove - Files attached
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=389&am...

.

Attachment: Cold Microwave chemistry synthesis using pre-cooled reagents.pdf (79kB)
This file has been downloaded 1589 times

Attachment: Microwave Nitration of phenols with Ca(NO3)2.pdf (88kB)
This file has been downloaded 1745 times

pjig

Hazard to Others

Posts: 139
Registered: 25-5-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: always learning

posted on 25-5-2010 at 19:13

Vod of bullseye make it a usable base charge?

Is it to far fetched to say bullseye or other fast double based powders could be used for a base charge in a blasting cap? I have only seen one patent where it was posted as a usable base charge. Could this be possible? I would assume that the charge could be cast using a solvent( nitro methane or acetone, etc) to bring up the density. I have found studies showing that bullseye is capable of achieving up to 25,641 fps unconfined with a #8 cap. This would lead me to believe it could useful, assuming that the primary is efficient. ( ddnp, fulminate, or hmtd..etc)

My question is can this be a possible way to manufacture of compound detonator ? Or would the base charge need to be a matrix of another secondary with the double based powder( like picrate acid, r-salt, etn..... and so on) to be strong enough?

franklyn

International Hazard

Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

posted on 30-5-2010 at 13:45

Page 43 Excerpted from
Comprehensive Chemical Kinetics: Vol 13
Reactions of Aromatic Compounds
By C. H. Bamford, Charles Frank Howlett Tipper
http://books.google.com/books?id=YJngAwojNqwC

We see here that constitution and equilibria of acid matters more than
the relative activation of the ortho , para , meta , sites on an Arene ring.

Catalysis of Nitrous acid.gif - 99kB

quicksilver

International Hazard

Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline

Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~

posted on 31-5-2010 at 06:24

Yes. A dbsp could be utilized as a combination of materials if detonated with an appropriate train would satisfy the speed & brisancy need to get picric acid to shoot.
Picric acid is often compared with TNT but it's "needs" are substantially different.

You can make TNP from so many materials it's quite unique.

Attachment: german-picrci-acid105560920.pdf (88kB)
This file has been downloaded 732 times

Please read: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=19143

pjig

Hazard to Others

Posts: 139
Registered: 25-5-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: always learning

posted on 31-5-2010 at 20:33

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

dbsp's seem to get overlooked in their ability to be a possibly replacement for tnt , "in a pinch" . It has been said that dbsp is about par in ddt with tnt. ( around 22-23,000fps)

Im wondering if a detonator can be made, by pressing a base charge of dbsp powder into a case and then a strong primary. Would the dbsp have to be combined with a stronger energetic material to be effective and cast as a melt or matrix?

I have successfully initiated kinepak with a cap made of .5g hmtd and a base of dbsp 1g. Im not sure if it was luck or good confinement that led to ddt, but it worked.. It does seem like a very underpowered cap though ,possibly a #6 equivalent.

As far as a good" train" are you saying that tnp, if cast into a dbsp melt should serve as a sensitive base( like pent) ?

Pages: 1 .. 13 14 15 16 17 .. 31

Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special Topics » Energetic Materials » Picric acid: different instructions