Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2    4  5
Author: Subject: Nitric acid
Mongo Blongo
Unregistered




Posts: N/A
Registered: N/A
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 24-1-2003 at 20:10


What do you mean when you say the HNO3 precipitates ?? It just reacts with the water (nothing ppts). It is not an easy method by the way. I have tried it with disappointing results. There is more info in the E&W forum. 10fingers describes his experiences with this method and how to get a higher concentration using water vapor.
a123x
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 87
Registered: 12-1-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-1-2003 at 08:15
h


I had meant it as the NO2 and water vapor combine and the cooling causes the nitic acid to become liquid from the gaseous state hat it is in. Like precipitation when tlking about the weather is water vapor in the air becomes liquid or solid and falls.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
menchaca
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 80
Registered: 12-3-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 30-3-2003 at 15:15


i dont know what i did when i was child or how i did it but this is what happened to me:

i took a large bottle and i added quantity of ammonia and a large quantity of comercial H2O2(3%) suddenly it´s colour turned red and white fumes appeard in the mouth of the bottle. Could that generate nitric acid? i dont know what to to think because nitric acid isnt easy to obtain oxidying ammnia but this was what happened to me and.........
well that´s all, i hope somebody can help me
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2879
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 30-3-2003 at 23:16


NH3 + O2 may form NOx but usually you need a catalyst!
Maybe there was some unknown catalyst in your ammonia solution or in your H2O2 solution!




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
osamafon
Harmless
*




Posts: 16
Registered: 26-12-2002
Location: x
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 31-3-2003 at 05:52


can I make 95% hno3 +NH4HSO4 with NH4NO3 and H2SO4 ? if it is posible ,is it good for RDX or PETN?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
johnybmb
Harmless
*




Posts: 3
Registered: 31-3-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

thumbdown.gif posted on 1-4-2003 at 03:40


You could try to centrifuge the mix and decant most of the nitric acid , as the calcium sulfate would not, for a short time , float on the dense nitric acid.



<b><u><s>The one\'n\'only </s></u></b>
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2879
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

wink.gif posted on 1-4-2003 at 17:12


"can I make 95% hno3 +NH4HSO4 with NH4NO3 and H2SO4 ? if it is posible ,is it good for RDX or PETN?"

Yes if your H2SO4 is 95%!
RDX needs H2SO4 free HNO3 or a minimum since H2SO4 destroys fast RDX!

PETN procedures don't use H2SO4 but rather use HNO3 conc in excess, HNO3/P2O5 or HNO3/Ac2O; so I guess there should be a problem with H2SO4!

Better separate HNO3 from H2SO4 and NH4HSO4...Use less than stoechiometric amount H2SO4 to keep a slight excess of NH4NO3; cool down the mix and filtrate the NH4HSO4 cristalls!The excess NH4NO3 will help precipitation/ristallisation of NH4HSO4!

:):D;):P:o:cool:




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Cappy
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 92
Registered: 27-3-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 4-4-2003 at 08:51


Apparently HNO3 can be dehydrated to greater than 68% concentration by hydrating Mg(NO3)2. "For ease in handling the material it is highly desireable that the magnesium nitrate be in liquid form." This means dissolving it in water, since it melts at too high a temperature. Since water is added too the HNO3, dehydration is less effective.

Would adding Mg to HNO3 work? Sure it would use up some of the acid, but Mg is sometimes easier to find than Mg(NO3)2.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2879
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

smile.gif posted on 7-4-2003 at 03:51


It is a good idea, but most of the people scream for Mg and would consider this as a crime
;););)




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
AngelEyes
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 171
Registered: 24-1-2003
Location: South of England
Member Is Offline

Mood: Skint

[*] posted on 7-4-2003 at 07:17


Seems to me the best way to dehydrate HNO3, if you're going to do it by adding a dehydrated salt, would be to use CuSO4. You know when it's anhydrous 'cos it goes white, you know when it's absorbed the water 'cos it goes blue, it's cheap and (should be) readily available and it won't react with the Nitric acid either.

I think that's all correct - unless anyone knows different? I haven't actually tried it myself though...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
dynamite
Harmless
*




Posts: 9
Registered: 18-12-2002
Location: east europ
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

thumbdown.gif posted on 10-4-2003 at 01:56
???


is the reaction with 2 nh4no3 +h2so4 so hno3+nh4hso4+nh4no3. ??? if is how can I do it so that 2hno3 forms , with a cons. acids(96% h2so4)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2879
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

smile.gif posted on 10-4-2003 at 06:13


2NH4NO3 +H2SO4 --> HNO3+NH4HSO4+NH4NO3
Is what you wrote!

Then simplifiying NH4NO3 in the two parts of the equation, you end up with:

NH4NO3 +H2SO4 --> HNO3+NH4HSO4

So simply add equimolar amounts of H2SO4 and NH4NO3 to get molar amount of HNO3!

:cool:




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Cappy
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 92
Registered: 27-3-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 14-4-2003 at 16:58


Could you produce nitrogen dioxide by heating air with a lightbulb? It would then be dissolved into water to form nitric acid. How long do you think the tungsten would last in air, and would it contaminate/catalyse the reaction at all?




The air would be pumped in somehow (which would explain why the water is not travelling up the glass tubes).

[Edited on 4/15/2003 by Cappy]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
trinitrotoluene
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 142
Registered: 17-10-2002
Location: California
Member Is Offline

Mood: paranoid

[*] posted on 14-4-2003 at 19:28


I heard there was some way to produce HNO3 from ammonia. 2 NH3+ O2= 2HNO3 or do you need some sort of cataylist?



TNT
View user's profile View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
Madog
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 221
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: lysergic

[*] posted on 15-4-2003 at 03:45


cappy, i dont think that would work, at least not well, electrolisis of air is how to do it. and add some pure oxygen to try to get it to a good mix of N2 and O2.

edit: oh yeah, also, the tungsten is not going to last long in air at all. it will oxidise as soon as you put current through it.

i might electrlisis some air just for the hell of it, i got a transformer that can do the job.

[Edited on 4/15/03 by Madog]




Most people outgrow their pyro tendencies, we are the ones who\'s tendencies outgrew us.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
Cappy
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 92
Registered: 27-3-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 15-4-2003 at 21:40


Is there a minimum voltage or current needed to electrolyse air? Also, should the electrodes be very close, or as far apart as possible while still allowing a visible spark? Is DC required or will AC work? I believe AC would work if just heating was required.

[Edited on 4/16/2003 by Cappy]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
madscientist
Super Moderator
*******




Posts: 962
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: American Midwest
Member Is Offline

Mood: pyrophoric

[*] posted on 15-4-2003 at 23:08


The purpose of the electric arc isn't really to electrolyze air - it's to create temperatures so extreme that the triple bond in nitrogen molecules breaks, allowing nitric oxide to form (which is then oxidized to nitrogen dioxide). That in mind, I would go with the longest arc possible, highest voltage, and alternating current.



I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
a123x
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 87
Registered: 12-1-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-4-2003 at 17:58


I just had a thought. Since nitric acid forms an azeotrope with water at 68% and this azeotrope boils at 20C higher than water boils at then nitric acid of concentrations below 68% ca be concentrated to 68% by simply boiling off water right? This makes me think the Ca(NO3)2 + H2SO4 method could actually be quite good if the nitrate was dissolved in water then the H2SO4 added. All the water would inrease the volume quite a bit making decantation quite easy. Then the acid could at least be concentrated to 68% which is good for most nitrations and should be better than H2SO4 + KNO3 for those nitrations.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
a123x
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 87
Registered: 12-1-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-4-2003 at 19:07


I had an even better idea. A fiberglass cloth filter is plenty good enough to stand up to acids and if the strands are bunched together by hand then it is tight enough to prevent even quite fine particles to pass through it. The problems becomes that the CaSO4 takes up quite a bit of volume so that there may not even be any free flowing liquid. I have thought of a way to solve this problem. Take a strip of fiberglass filter, fold it over, take some fiberglass epoxy and put it into the sides of the folded strip so that whe dried it forms a pouch type thing with only one end open. This allows you to take the CaSO4 + nitric acid mixture and pour it into this pouch, then use some type of plastic roller made from something like HDPE which has pretty decent resistance to nitric and roll the pouch with it from the open end down to effectively squeeze out the acid.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Madog
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 221
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: lysergic

[*] posted on 29-4-2003 at 17:01


cool, you could just smash open the wall and pull the pink stuff out and use this in vacume filtration.

[Edited on 4/30/03 by Madog]




Most people outgrow their pyro tendencies, we are the ones who\'s tendencies outgrew us.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
Haggis
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 238
Registered: 1-12-2002
Location: Mid-America.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Lacrymating

[*] posted on 30-4-2003 at 07:45


Attics are the best source for the stuff. There is a whole lot just hanging on the walls and floor. Some houses use spray type insulation and I'm not sure that this would work because it feels completely different from the pink stuff. They consistency is not uniform with the thickness or concentration of the material. The pink stuff would be the best choice, if it does indeed work. If you cannot get it from your own attic, go to a construction site where they are building a house. I work construction and there is always 'pink stuff' lying around. The best times are when they first put the wall frames up. There is usually a layer between the top of the basement and the bottom of the floor. The second best time is when it is starting to look like a house. The walls have plywood and the roof is complete, before they put on siding however. It is layed between exterior wall studs. They usually don't insulate between interior rooms however. This is some itchy stuff, so wear long sleeves and some type of glove. Just ask the guys for some insulation scraps. I find the brand with the "Pink Panther" on the roll to be the highest quality.
View user's profile View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
leopard
Harmless
*




Posts: 12
Registered: 14-11-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 8-5-2003 at 13:02


I make my Nitric Acid using H2SO4 + KNO3 (equal proportions by weight) but my yield seems very low. In Rudolph Wagner's "Handbook of Chemical Technology 1872" he states that typical values for materials are 30kg KNO3 and 29kg H2SO4 then goes on to state that typical yield is 125kg Nitric Acid for 100kg KNO3 !!! Molecular weight of KNO3 is (101) while for HNO3 is (63). I'm no chemist but the math doesn't seem to add up. If the K (39.1) is taken away and replaced with H (1.0) how does the final weight of HNO3 exceed the starting weight of KNO3 ? Am I missing something obvious? By the way I also have good success making HNO3 using 2 neon transformers each creating a 1.5cm arc inside seperate jars. A pump forces air into the first jar then into the second jar then bubled into water.:)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Marvin
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 991
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 9-5-2003 at 19:05


The reasoning is right, but you didnt read the section all the way through. The process described condenses the nitric acid into water, producing an acid of concentration 36 degrees Baum.

This is around 50% nitric acid. The additonal discrepancy from the numbers comes from the use of sodium nitrate, not potassium nitrate to make the acid.

Watch out for NO2, its very toxic, avoid breathing it in at all costs, at low concentrations it will cause lung damage while you dont even notice it. If I sound overly repetative on this point, its becuase NO2 bit me back.

Reedited after working some things out.

[Edited on 10-5-2003 by Marvin]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Theoretic
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 770
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline

Mood: eating the souls of dust mites

[*] posted on 24-6-2003 at 07:18
HNO3


I heard that a mixture of N2, O2 and Cl2 forms NOCl (nitrosyl chloride) on heating to 400C. You could then use sunlight to decompose NOCl to NO and Cl2 (chlorine functions as a catalyst for fixing nitrogen).On air NO is oxidized to NO2, which could be liquefied and separated from chlorine, that could then be reused.
Nitrogen and oxygen from air would do just fine.:D
View user's profile View All Posts By User
a123x
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 87
Registered: 12-1-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-6-2003 at 08:35


That would be way more trouble to do than it is worth. For one thing you're working with Cl2, then you have to liquify NO2 to get it out of the system. It seems it would be significantly easier just to run a neon sign transformer in a container with air being slowly pumped in one side.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  2    4  5

  Go To Top