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Author: Subject: Laws Affecting Legitimate Amateur Science
Taaie-Neuskoek
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Laws Affecting Legitimate Amateur Science

Someone posted this link on a Dutch forum, it is a very, very good article on amateur science, finally someone who understands it!

Here is the story!

The guy who wrote this works at CR scientific, a company who even puts experiments on their site which are quite controversial, like the synthesis of bromine... 2 thumbs up for CR Scientific!!

Never argue with idiots, they drag you down their level and beat you with experience.
cyclonite4
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Excellent link, thank you Taaie-Neuskoek. This comes in (well just after ) a time of need to me, as not too long ago, I was accused of being a terrorist/methcook. You'd be suprised (or would you?) to know that the basis of the argument that I am a drugcook is the type of stove I have. Now that's just plain silly.

I'm fine now, as the argument of the accusor has been shot down in flames, and even the real police agree with me, that me having a lab is perfectly legal, because everything was legally acquired, is legal to own, and I'm not producing drugs or suicide bombs.

I shall print two copies of that list off: one to give to my mum as re-assurance, another to staple to one of my lab cupboards.

Thanks once again for the link.

\"It is dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.\" - Voltaire
The_Davster
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 Quote: Originally posted by cyclonite4 Excellent link, thank you Taaie-Neuskoek. This comes in (well just after ) a time of need to me, as not too long ago, I was accused of being a terrorist/methcook. You'd be suprised (or would you?) to know that the basis of the argument that I am a drugcook is the type of stove I have. Now that's just plain silly. I'm fine now, as the argument of the accusor has been shot down in flames, and even the real police agree with me, that me having a lab is perfectly legal, because everything was legally acquired, is legal to own, and I'm not producing drugs or suicide bombs. I shall print two copies of that list off: one to give to my mum as re-assurance, another to staple to one of my lab cupboards. Thanks once again for the link.

You are in a respectable location, Cyclonite. It is nice to know that the police in your location are so understanding. Was your home searched, computer searched or anything like that?

I find it incredibly funny that you were accused of being a "terrorist/methcook" obviously your accuser was a chemophobic sheep who did not even know enough about chemistry to accuse you of one or the other, so instead they lumped them together. I imagine this has overall worked to your advantage though, you can experiment with legal chems in plain view of society, and the police already know what you are doing is alright, so noone can call the police on you if they see you experimenting with your 'evil chemicals'.

[Edited on 19-8-2005 by rogue chemist]

IrC
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"your accuser was a chemophobic sheep"

The problem is they ALL are! I have a shop open to the public, and have a little area where I am always working on some operation or other related to making the chemicals for my glow powders which I cannot buy anywhere. 100 percent of the public shy away or make comments about making drugs or whatever. In fact the only one who does not is a cop who is a friend of mine and he is really into radio so he comes by a lot. He knows what I am playing with. This likely may someday save my ass from a hassle who knows. The point is I find it is an across the board, 100 percent MINDSET of ALL the public. No doubt they get this from the constant media barage against anyone or anything not ordinary. Mind you I am not giving my opinion here, just my observations of hundreds of people monthly who look at my glassware setup and immediately think of only one thing. Either I am going to blow somone up or I am making drugs. Never once has anyone even asked what it is I am really doing, other than the cop. Another officer I know was freaking out one day when he picked a bottle marked uranium 238. I had to explain to him by showing a geiger counter comparison against the outside of the bottle and a lantern mantle. Likely in his life on camping trips he had many of those hanging around with no thought. Try to explain to them that they are getting more radiation at 40 thousand feet on a trip and it meets blank stares. In short, the public are the most monumentally stupid beings ever to inhabit this galaxy. And they get it from the news no doubt. Fear this and fear that or scare this or that.

We all know the old saying people fear what they don't understand. As they get more and more dumbed down, they become more and more fearful. The simple truth is in the eyes of society today there is no such thing as a non criminal home chemistry lab. Period.

The way I handle this attitude is to have my own. They can all kiss my ass I am not going to give up my science just so they can feel better. I also would not live in Texas with their glassware laws even if the rest of the country fell in the sea. I would sit in my boat playing with my lab as best as I can.
Taaie-Neuskoek
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Cyclonite4, you're welcome! Must've been a hard time with a lot of stress for you, it is still a horror scenario for me that jacked-boot thugs are storming my house, taking all my stuff and arresting me for being a terrorist...

 Quote: In short, the public are the most monumentally stupid beings ever to inhabit this galaxy.

LOL, I did actually meet people who asked what I did, and who understood that I like science, and like to do stuff there in my lab. Really, you almost have to search for them, and the guys who like that have most of the time also a hobby no-else will understand... (like target-shooting, which is still in The Netherlands not a real accepted sport...)

It was really stupid, I went a couple of months ago to a hardware store to look for a full-face mask, and the guy behind the desk got suspicious and asked where I needed the mask for... FOR MY OWN PROTECTION, WHERE DO YOU ELSE THINK I NEED A GAS MASK FOR, TWAT!
I told him I was an artist, and that I made my own pigments, and that I needed protection from certain gasses... He understood that, and when I said that it should at least protect against NO2 he replied after 5min: sodium dioxide, nasty stuff. (In Dutch sodium is called natrium)

Before, when I had an NO2 intoxication, I called the doctor, got the assistant on the line, told her that I inhaled some toxic gas during an experiment and that I would like to see a doctor... The first thing she asked was: You weren't doing some illegal, were you? I'm still wondering whether she wanted an honest answer...
I could be seriously injured, and all they care about was that I wasn't doing something illegal strange, strange...
At the doctor it was kinda funny, while the assistant had ages of time to search on NO2 intoxication, (I mentioned it), the doctor actually didn't knew anything about it, and I had to tell her the symptoms, and where to look for...

Never argue with idiots, they drag you down their level and beat you with experience.
cyclonite4
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Well, it's kind of over now, as I'm no longer being harassed, but due to the fear instilled in my mother, I won't be able to do anything until I leave home.

Basically, it started with one of her friends seeing my lab outside in an unorganized state, seeing certain things like my stove, mineral acids (what lab doesn't have those?), and fertilizers (It didn't matter what fertilizers they were, just the fact they were fertilizers.. fucking media propaganda). She imideately asked me what I needed fertilizer for in an interogative tone, and I replied back honestly, "Oh, I have four actually... theres no specific use for each one.." and then she bursts in saying "You know they make bomb by boiling these down, do you?". I said something along the lines of "Not all fertilizers, infact barely any, are explosive in nature, and I don't see why they would boil down a solid"..... Then she changes to the stove topic "This stove, is used in drug labs, you know?", I said no, and questioned how she would know something like that... Apparently she has (ex)friends who make drugs. Conveniently, she also reckons she has friends who are chemists, and one in the police task force (bullshit IMO).

The next day, after school, I came home to notice my lab was shutdown. This friend of mums had her way... the lab was shutdown, my keys taken from me, etc. My mum had gone mad, and wanted to search my computer (under friends suggestion), I refused at first because I believed I had a right to a degree of privacy, but eventually, I allowed it, knowing that mum was too computer illiterate to scan every square millimeter of my HDD. She ended up being satisified when I showed her the history in Internet Explorer (although I use mozilla ).

The next day, Mum was on my side again... This friend had gone crazy, and wanted my lab completely gone... she wanted the "toxic cocktail of evil" removed from our house, and believes that there is a constant risk of my lab "expoding". Luckily, mum could tell that she was bloody crazy/paranoid, so ignored her. I went down to a payphone to inquire about the legality of my situation to the police, "everything is legal if acquired legally, and I'm not producing anything illegal (i.e. drugs)'. That was a major relief.

My mum gave my keys back a few days later, so I have control over the lab, but I can't do much because the fear still resides, and because of my exams coming up soon.

As a sidenote, in the past (few months ago), my mum decided to goto a party with this friend. When mum got there, she instantly knew it wasn't her type of environment, as everyone was doing ecstacy (not to mention one girl had a view that 50% of people on the world should be killed to de-populate), and this friend of mum's even wanted to, and suggested mum does (of course my mum didnt). Kind of a double standard for this friend to be accusing me of making drugs, when she is so involved in the scene.

\"It is dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.\" - Voltaire
Oxydro
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I think this 'friend' needs a quick, spectacular, anonymous and conclusive demonstration of what "dangerous" chemistry is like! : Just kidding of course, but I would find it hard to tolerate someone like that.

"Our interest's on the dangerous side of things" -- Browning
sparkgap
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cyclonite4, give your mum's friend's lawn the "thermite treatment".

On a more serious note, maybe the fact that your mum's pal was (or maybe is ) involved with drugs explains the fact that she went bonkers after seeing your nice stove. Maybe she also makes some for livelihood purposes?

"...She ended up being satisified when I showed her the history in Internet Explorer (although I use mozilla)."

You're evil. Really evil.

As long as the police's on your side, I don't think she'd be able to curtail your experimentation to an appreciable extent. But maybe, just maybe, look for a sharp attorney. You never know...

sparky (~_~)

"What's UTFSE? I keep hearing about it, but I can't be arsed to search for the answer..."
cyclonite4
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 Quote: Originally posted by sparkgap cyclonite4, give your mum's friend's lawn the "thermite treatment".

Her brains are already burnt out

 Quote: Originally posted by sparkgap On a more serious note, maybe the fact that your mum's pal was (or maybe is ) involved with drugs explains the fact that she went bonkers after seeing your nice stove. Maybe she also makes some for livelihood purposes?

I was seriously thinking that, also because when she said she wanted all the chemicals gone, she said we couldn't tip them down the drain, so I think she intended to 'dispose' of it for us.

 Quote: Originally posted by sparkgap "...She ended up being satisified when I showed her the history in Internet Explorer (although I use mozilla)." You're evil. Really evil.

Why thank you, I'm flattered

 Quote: Originally posted by sparkgap As long as the police's on your side, I don't think she'd be able to curtail your experimentation to an appreciable extent. But maybe, just maybe, look for a sharp attorney. You never know...

I think the ordeal is pretty much over now, as they are no longer friends, because mum got really pissed off about the situation.

\"It is dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.\" - Voltaire
neutrino
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On another note, It's rather sobering to hear that people like that really exist.
vulture
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 Quote: On another note, It's rather sobering to hear that people like that really exist.

Newsflash: People like that are running your country.

One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
I am a fish
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The sad and ironic thing about chemophobia, is that it will take vastly more lives that it will ever save. For every person protected by wrapping the world in cotton wool, thousands more will suffocated by the resulting lack of scientific progress.

To me, laboratory chemicals are a source of wonder. They are pure samples of the substances that make up the world. By manipulating them correctly, matter can be rearranged at the atomic level, to create an entirely new substance. Unfortunately, to most people, chemicals are simply a source of fear. They are regarded as the means to make make explosives, illegal drugs and chemical weapons. This is true, but only because chemicals are a means to make absolutely anything.

Science is needed to make the world a better place. Good intentions are worthless without the means to implement them, and in most cases, science is that means. For example, the desire to cure cancer is worthless without the input of medical science. However, in order for science to improve the world, we need scientists. Regretably, many scientific careers are stopped before they begin, without the potential scientist even considering such a career. If these potential scientists are to benefit the world by becoming actual scientists, they first need to become interested in the subject. Amateur science is a perfect means to achieve this.

Unfortunately, it appears that fear is winning out. As a result, science &ndash; and hence society as a whole &ndash; will suffer. The fearmongers are hurting those that they claim to be protecting.

1f /0u (4|\\| |234d 7|-|15, /0u |234||/ |\\|33d 70 937 0u7 /\\/\\0|23.
Ramiel
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You may or may not have noticed my decline in relevant posting. The reason for this is primarily fear.

I live in a sharehouse now, and I'm not on the lease. It was decided that I couldn't have all of my dozens of chemicals because it would hurt when rent-inspection time came... well, I couldn't really argue with that since I am not on the lease, but then certain extremist reactionary pinko-leftist commie hippie organicophile chemophobe (*pant pant* ) parties declared that even something like acetone is 'dangerous' in my hands.

dangerous
yea

shove that in your pipe and smoke it, basically.

Caveat Orator
I am a fish
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 Quote: Originally posted by Ramiel ...even something like acetone is 'dangerous' in my hands. dangerous yea shove that in your pipe and smoke it, basically.

I imagine that acetone would be dangerous if you filled a pipe with it, placed that pipe to your lips, and then applied a lighted match to the other end.

Seriously though, we need another Sputnik Crisis. We need something to make the fear of abandoning science greater than the fear of science itself.

1f /0u (4|\\| |234d 7|-|15, /0u |234||/ |\\|33d 70 937 0u7 /\\/\\0|23.
sparkgap
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"...even something like acetone is 'dangerous' in my hands..."

Yeah, enough hydrogen peroxide and you'd have something substantial.

So even your moonshining is on hold also? I sympathize greatly.

I am a fish was on to something. Hmm... let's be creative, what kind of event might just be able to rekindle the enthusiasm the populace once had for science? Definitely not propaganda, the whole world's fucking awash in propaganda; so conflicting it confuses a multitude. But maybe that's for another thread...

sparky (~_~)

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cyclonite4
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 Quote: Originally posted by I am a fish We need something to make the fear of abandoning science greater than the fear of science itself.

Sad it's come down to that.

I was reading a book I found in the library yesterday, I can't remember the title, but somthing along the lines of: "Science: can we trust it?". The book was in the library's politics section.

The book was essentially composed of essays by random people with absolutely no understanding of science itself, or any credentials (for that matter) that could prove they were trustable themselves. There were essays like "Nanotechnology: The new threat", and mention that most scientists comments are biased to large corporations, another reason why they can't be trusted. What pissed me of the most was how much focus they put into the potential (and somewhat improbable) dangers of certain sciences, without shining a single photon of light onto all the positive things it could do to help us. For example, GMO foods. They bitch continuously about the ethics behind it, and forget that such technology could save third world countries, but it being denied to them because of all these nutjobs claiming you will start glowing green if you eat GMO'd food. Thats ethics for you, let millions who could be saved die, to preserve a crazy idea.

\"It is dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.\" - Voltaire
neutrino
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ethics

Ah, I see that the subject of 'ethics' has come up. I might as well donate my two yen on the matter.

First of all, ‘ethics’ is a term that gets attached to all kinds of things. Some are for the better of mankind, others are common sense, while others are pure BS spouted by zealots and/or big businesses who want to make money in some way.

As an example of the first two, take the matter of citing sources. This makes sense and helps track the origins of certain theories. For instance, I recall the story of Mr. Feynman going through many layers of papers on a subject in order to locate the evidence for a theory that was in contradiction to what he was seeing at a particle accelerator. Thanks to the citing of sources, he was able to find it and disprove the theory.

There are far too many examples of the last kind to count. While some border on reason (paying for software to support a company), others are nothing more than the nonsensical ramblings of various deranged lunatics (the ‘ethics’ of cloning, for example). Remember, though, that the things one person says make sense to him. How another person labels them is dependent on their background. Because of this inherent subjectiveness, I have come to the conclusion that there is no absolute ethical code and, slowly, I’m realizing that ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are often relative terms.

Just my two cents…

[Before anyone points it out, I’m aware of the exchange rate.]
vulture
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Well, there is a solution, although it's hard to accomplish, it's going to take alot of nerve, planning and most of all guts.

If society thinks science is such a threat, we scientists should deny the public acces to what we've accomplished.

Everybody is raving about the dangers of science, yet all of them will suddenly be dead silent when they end up sick, when they're hungry or when they are in need of some technical device to accomplish a job.
Then science is ok.

The most ironical thing is that the media is allowed to spout their fearmongering antiscience propaganda with the help of technology that science created.

We help saving their pitiful lives and in return we get their wrath, well thank you.
Maybe that's one of the subconcious reasons why most scientists have some lateral interest in weapons development...

[Edited on 24-8-2005 by vulture]

One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
Sandmeyer
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Yes, i agree with vulture. But they wouldn't sell as much if they didn't bombard the public with apocalyptic stories, afterall it's about profit and general promotion of consumerism.

Anyways, there was some really interesting and funny propaganda promoted by US government (i meen even Sam has to laugh at it), this is a quote from Dr. Shulgin's page:

The Drug Law Enforcement crowd launched a strong, and memorable, radio campaign to deter the spread of "ice" use but may have inadvertently succeeded in popularizing it. This was the very first use of the airwaves for public announcements in the history of the DEA, and it took place in early 1990. It was a 60 second public service radio clip declaring that there is a new form of methamphetamine called "ice" that was very dangerous. The tape begins with a deep voice accompanied by descriptive sound effects:

The ingredients. Sulfuric acid: an industrial corrosive used in lead storage batteries ... it can eat through cloth, metal or flesh (hiss). Red phosphorus: used to make fireworks and the striker surface on packets of matches (sizzle). Mercury: Banned from toxic paints. Used in electronics, fluorescent lamps and cathode ray tubes (click, hum, crackle). Phenylacetic acid: commonly used in insect repellants (buzz). Aluminum foil: commonly used to bake your Christmas turkey (sizzle).

The announcement concluded with:

Nine out of ten chemists say it's a bad idea to put these materials in your brain. It all goes into making methamphetamine hydrochloride, "crank," "ice" or "speed." Nine out of ten chemists say, "Don't." The tenth chemist (explosion) was unavailable for comment. This is the Drug Enforcement Administration urging you to think twice before you speed.

-Dr. Shulgin

[Edited on 24-8-2005 by Sandmeyer]

neutrino
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And then there's the strong drug usually associated with broken bones and serious diseases: acetylsalicylic acid.

The ingredients. Benzene: a very flammable, highly carcinogenic substance used to make napalm. Chlorine: a deadly corrosive gas used by the Germans in WWI. Sodium hydroxide: a very strong, corrosive base that can quickly destroy cloth and dissolve flesh. Sulfuric acid: a very strong acid that can eat metal, char paper, and cause third degree burns; used as a potent drain cleaner. Hydrochloric acid: another strong acid, used to clean concrete.

The conclusion: ASPIRIN WILL KILL YOU AND EAT YOUR CHILDREN!!!!!
Sandmeyer
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Ah, good that someone mentioned THE CHILDREN!

sparkgap
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The DEA really is scraping the bottom of the barrel with this ad of theirs, 'eh? Maybe you should have put that in the "Advertisements" thread.

Anyway, this will only work of course for those stupid enough not to know that the raw materials and the products do not necessarily have the same properties. Anyone here eat rare pork? How come more people prefer their pork cooked... but I digress.

neutrino, that may be the solution to the question I am a fish posed. The most useful stuff to mankind, maybe someone can prepare ads that imply that these safe products are made from "dangerous" materials.

Obligatory examples:

Hydrogen gas: a gas that was involved in the Hindenburg's destruction
Oxygen: a gas involved in numerous arson cases.

The result: DHMO, a substance that can kill you through suffocation!

-------------------------------

Did you know that the common lubricant Teflon is made from a corrosive gas and a gas the speeds up the rotting of fruits?

sparky (~_~)

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vulture
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We all eat farming products. Farmers use fertilizer. Fertilizer contains ammonium nitrate. Ammonium nitrate is used by terrorists to make bombs.

Conclusion: If you eat farming products, you are sponsoring terrorism! YOU ARE UNDER ARREST CITIZEN!

Famous fallacy of causation through correlation, also happily practiced by religious extremists.

Hence:

The logical fallacy of causation through correlation is used by the DEA. Religious extremists use the same logical fallacy. Muslim terrorists are religious extremists.

Conclusion: The DEA consists of muslim terrorists.

[Edited on 27-8-2005 by vulture]

One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
Sandmeyer
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Not to mention that you are being a narco-terrorist by having GHB in your body at all times as well as traces of cocaine on your paper-currency. Notably is that in court they prossecute you by the weight of toal material containing the controlled substance, so we all belong behind bars. Wonderful system isn't it?

And unless you like to spend some time in a cage (payed for by your tax dollars), make sure that some psilocybin containing mushroom dosen't decide to pop up in your back yard.

Hey, want to drop atomic bombs over cities full with innoscent civilians - no problem, you are a liberator!

[Edited on 27-8-2005 by Sandmeyer]
Chris The Great
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This appeared in a local paper. I have put an interesting piece in bold so it stands out.

 Quote: Teen faces charges after mom finds 'bomb' in his bedroom Police warning: Kids can concoct explosives using Interent recipes A 16-year-old who allegedly turned his Chilliwack home into a weapons factory faces charges today after police carted away a powerful explosive concocted from an internet recipe. Mounties will not say how the teen managed to assemble the high-explosive they said bore similarities to the military-type C4 plastic explosive. Police also recovered a pen-gun capable of shooting a .22-calibre bullet. RCMP were called on Tuesday by the boy's mother after she moved a package out of her son's room and into the garage. Police say she made a mistake moving the explosives, even though no detonator was attached. Sgt. Neal Davidge, of the RCMP's explosives-disposal unit, said officers are trying to determine the exact composition of the homemade bomb. He said bomb recipes are easily available on the Internet and warned parents not to think their kids are "Einsteins" when they play with dangerous chemicals. Instead, he said, they should call police. "Sooner or later they are not only going to lose their child but their residence also," said Davidge. He said he has dealt with several cases where children have been maimed by highly unstable explosives at home. In one case a bomb put together by a kid was so unstable RCMP contemplated blowing up the house. Davidge said ingredients can be bought at supermarkets, pharmacies and other outlets. "All you have to do is to know the chemical components and you put it together - we are not talking nuclear fission here, we are talking simple, simple chemicals which when put together make an explosive device," said Davidge. "With Halloween coming it unfortunately is our busy time of the year, and dangerous because young teenage boys go out and make their own explosives using fireworks." Davidge said police have nothing to indicate the Chilliwack boy intended to blow up property. Police have recommended charges of possessing explosives and possessing a prohibited weapon.

My guess is that is was simply sodium chlorate/vaseline, made by boiling bleach or something simple like that.

The article is an example of extreme fear mongering and the bold part especially is a direct blow against amatuer chemistry.

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