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Author: Subject: The best country to pursue amateur chemistry in.
The_Davster
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[*] posted on 1-9-2005 at 19:34
The best country to pursue amateur chemistry in.


Just curious as to what everyone thinks the best country is for the pursuit of our beloved hobby at this point in time.

Lets try to keep this to first and second world countries, despite what you may think, on occasion we need stuff other than chemicals and glass, such as food(debatable);).

I personally think Canada is pretty good(there are plenty of suppliers, you just have to look), we have not yet gone too much like a police state(yet). But I am rather biased on this one, I do not know much about many of the European countries outside of GB, BRD, and france.



[Edited on 2-9-2005 by rogue chemist]




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[*] posted on 1-9-2005 at 21:26


100% legally, or as a gray area? :P

I'll mention the USA, just for discussion, I know little of the chemistry laws here (besides the dramatic unavailability of nitrates and the "everyone's a terrorist" mantra).

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The_Davster
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[*] posted on 1-9-2005 at 22:03


As close to 100% legal as possible.

mmm...loophole
"34. A person may, for the purpose of laboratory chemical experiment
and not for practical use or sale, make a small quantity of explosive
in a place that is not a licensed factory if reasonable precautions
are observed to prevent injury to persons or damage to property and
if the provisions of the Act and these Regulations are observed as
far as they are otherwise applicable."
From the explosives act of Canada.

The thing that gets me about the USA is the actual banning of certain chems, red P comes to mind, but in the current state of affairs certain pyrotechnic chems are being removed from the market. Also the required lisencing for glassware in texas.

EDIT: That quote will get a few of you drooling.:P I however as a result of the current state of affairs have decided to quit experimentation in this area after much thought. :( But many of you will be interested in it anyway.

EDIT2: In Canada KNO3 containing stump remover has been taken off the market/banned


[Edited on 2-9-2005 by rogue chemist]




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Chris The Great
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[*] posted on 1-9-2005 at 23:42


I like that part of the explosives act very much :D

You still need to follow other parts of the act and regulations and local laws however.....

Also, organic peroxides are not considered explosives under the explosives act either.
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[*] posted on 2-9-2005 at 09:52


Belgium is pretty relaxed. I hope it stays that way. Getting most chemicals is not a problem, the only problem is importing KClO4 for some reason, but that's only a real setback if you're a pyro freak.



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[*] posted on 4-9-2005 at 16:19


Rogue, I agree that Canada is fairly chemist-friendly, and I have quoted that regulation to parents, friends, and parents of friends, in an attempt to justify my hobbies.

I would say that generally, the farther east you go, the easier it gets. The west coast and prairie provinces (well, specially bc and alberta) are more meth-crazed for now, meaning more suspicion/restrictions.

Out here (east), the main problem is how far you have to go to get to a decent store.

However, I've lately been seeing more news about how Ontario and Quebec are starting to crack down on drug making and unfortunately that tends to impact the chemist.




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Chris The Great
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[*] posted on 4-9-2005 at 16:46


Yes, right now there is a huge meth craze going on here. I haven't had any problems obtaining chemicals however. Most meth labs here buy their chemicals in bulk from corrupt industrial suppliers or whatever, cops aren't surprised to find multi-kilo boxes of psuedoepthedrine hydrochloride sitting around in meth labs that put huge amounts everyday.

I think the main problem will be when they get rid of these type of labs and the meth supply starts coming from "mom and pop" type labs like down in the states. Then we'll start seeing some much tougher restrictions on the chemicals you can easily pick up from your local stores.
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The_Davster
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[*] posted on 4-9-2005 at 18:19


My city actually debated whether or not to ban the sale of HCl and acetone to the public:o. I never heard more of it than it was a proposition to the city, and luckily acetone and HCl are still in hardware stores. Although I did not see HCl when I was in home depot today which is worrisome.:(

Damn meth....
:mad:




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[*] posted on 4-9-2005 at 20:18


FWIW, round here HD keeps the HCl outside.

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Chris The Great
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[*] posted on 4-9-2005 at 23:56


My home depot does not carry HCl either. I did find it at Canadian Tire however. I bought two 4L jugs as well as a big jug of paint remover (which I distilled 3.5 liters of methylene chloride out of :D )
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[*] posted on 5-9-2005 at 01:41


It indeed is bad to see all kinds of reagents disappear.
In the Netherlands there is another strategy. Chemicals are becoming more and more dilute. They remain available, but only at high dilutions. This is not for reasons of drugs making (NL is quite relaxed with respect to owning precursors, such as I2, P or K2Cr2O7), but for reasons of safety. All chems must be idiot-proof. If we wait a few years more, then we only can buy flavoured water over here :D with acid scent, ammonia scent etc.

E.g. HCl used to be 30%, now it is < 10%.
NH3 used to be 25%, now it is < 5%
NaClO used to be 10% active chlorine, that has dropped to 4%
Acetic acid was 32% for household cleaning, now it is just 4% or if you are really lucky 10%.
H3PO4 used to be 85%, now it is < 8%.

At some places the more concentrated reagents still can be found, but it is becoming harder to get them.

Now some concerned people are looking for ways to ban solid NaOH and 97% H2SO4 as drain cleaners. These chems can be misused by young boys, making Al-bombs :mad:. Fortunately these still are available, but for how long???




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[*] posted on 5-9-2005 at 07:49


Quote:

Now some concerned people are looking for ways to ban solid NaOH and 97% H2SO4 as drain cleaners. These chems can be misused by young boys, making Al-bombs


Not to mention PSYCHO KILLERS! They use it to dissolve their victims!

As far as I know I can buy mercurycompounds, potassiumchlorate and even sodiumazide OTC if I want. I know someone who actually pulled that last stunt off.

[Edited on 5-9-2005 by vulture]




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[*] posted on 5-9-2005 at 08:23


Woelen's post reminded me of something I saw in a small town recently not too far from where I live. It was an old fashioned hobby shop like they had when I was a kid. It had the rubber band propelled balsa models of WWII airplanes where you constructed the wings using stringers and stretched paper. But I digress. What really caught my attention was a chemistry set! For children of all people! But on the cover it bragged in large letters: "Microquantities! No flammable solvents! No alcohol required! No hazardous chemicals!" I really wanted to take a marking pen and add "No fun!" :(



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[*] posted on 5-9-2005 at 09:07


"...it bragged in large letters: "Microquantities! No flammable solvents! No alcohol required! No hazardous chemicals!"..."

*overheard at the company boardroom* "...Yes, let's put those words in. We can't afford to be sued, especially how it's getting harder and harder to encourage parents to buy our sets..."

sparky (~_~)




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[*] posted on 5-9-2005 at 18:30


Sad but true. How we all miss the 50s.
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[*] posted on 11-9-2005 at 14:07


Even 20 years ago things were radically different, chemistry sets contained more obscure, and more hazardous reagents; pharmacies would sell silver nitrate and potassium permanganate (amongst others). Going back 40 years, you could openly play with mercury in high school chemistry class; I pity the fool that would attempt that nowadays. Still further back, as neutrino noted, in the 50s a teenager wouldn't even be questioned for purchasing antimony chloride or even thallium at a chemical supply house if he could offer a good experiment.

Still in some locations it's worse than others. In my area, concentrated chemicals still exist, albeit cunningly labeled to hide their contents. Nothing's been removed *yet* except red devil lye, perhaps forshadowing future bans to come?

My question is who do we blame for the dilution of chemisty courses in high schools, the removal of useful, yet potentially hazardous chemicals from the shelves, and the jaundiced eye of glassware/chemical companies towards individual sales? So who is ultimately responsible?
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[*] posted on 11-9-2005 at 17:00


...........The thing that gets me about the USA is the actual banning of certain chems, red P comes to mind, ...........

Please correct me if I'm wrong but how does being on the DEA List 1 make red P banned (whatever that means)?

As far as countries Mexico is pretty good for home chemists. Never have any trouble getting anything in the catalog as in the USA also but it's that Listed Chemicals nonsense
that is a pain.

Keeping records for 2 years just because you're over the threshold for toluene or acetone, even MEK is rediculous. Neverminding the prying eyes that go along with it.
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[*] posted on 11-9-2005 at 17:35


Quote:
Originally posted by bio2
...

Please correct me if I'm wrong but how does being on the DEA List 1 make red P banned (whatever that means)?



I remember someone on this forum saying that possession of red P is actually a felony in the USA.
Can someone back me up on this?

[Edited on 12-9-2005 by rogue chemist]




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[*] posted on 11-9-2005 at 22:26


http://www.ussc.gov/2004guid/2d1_11.htm

http://www.ussc.gov/2004guid/2d1_12.htm

google "possession of red phosphorus" to see what is going on state-wise.

any news on the proposed Canadian RP legislation?
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[*] posted on 12-9-2005 at 12:15


Quote:

Even 20 years ago things were radically different, chemistry sets contained more obscure, and more hazardous reagents; pharmacies would sell silver nitrate and potassium permanganate (amongst others). Going back 40 years, you could openly play with mercury in high school chemistry class; I pity the fool that would attempt that nowadays.


I can buy AgNO3 and KMnO4 from the pharmacy if I want, without many questions.

I even had a physics teacher demonstrate torricellis experiment in highschool with 2L of mercury.

I'm in my early twenties, so it's not that long ago.




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[*] posted on 12-9-2005 at 16:28


Here in New Zealand the police only seem to be interested in busting meth and E labs. So if you buy pseudoephidrine medicines at a pharmarcy they record your details.

But thats about it. Anything else seems to be fair game. I can walk into a farm store and pick up a 20kg bag of potassium nitrate. 30% HCl, 30% H202, etc are all available.




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[*] posted on 12-9-2005 at 19:04


Vulture:
Ah, but I was referring to the United States, not so much internationally where there are still countries that haven't abandoned all logic for a policy of control and regulation.



[Edited on 13-9-2005 by Fleaker]
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[*] posted on 12-9-2005 at 19:51


.......I remember someone on this forum saying that possession of red P is actually a felony in the USA. .........

Nonsense, although some states may have new draconian laws the sentencing guidlines posted only apply to someone already convicted of a drug offense (manufacture).

List 1 & 2 chemicals are all easy to purchase.
The threshold quantity is the level where the supplier must report the sale. If Listed Chemicals are to be sold then a disclosure statement is required and 2 years of record keeping on hand. This is to account for all of the chemical.
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[*] posted on 12-9-2005 at 19:58


I guess it was some sort of 'attempt to manufacture' charges I was remembering, not 'posession of red P'. Thanks for clearing it up for me.:)

[Edited on 13-9-2005 by rogue chemist]




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[*] posted on 12-9-2005 at 20:00


Long ago (1970) I visited Munich, West Germany as a tourist. One of the neat things I saw was the "Museum of Science and Industry." In the chemistry section they had set up about 5 sealed fume hoods where by use of buttons the visitor could activate an actual chemical experiment using chemicals, beakers, test tubes, etc. This, of course, amazed me. So, at that time West Germany was probably a great country for amateur chemistry. But I would guess that is no longer true.



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