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Sauron
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My bullshitometer is pegged all the way to the right at its highest scale, which can cope with BS approximately the lass of Uranus.
Innerspace, newage sewage belongs in the newage sewer, of which this forum forms no part.
"Secrets of the Lost Ark", give us all a break, after all we have all seen the film with H.Ford. The Ark is in a crate in a military warehouse
somewhere in AREA 51 on the grounds of Nellis Air Force Base, near Las Vegas. The Scientologists tried to heist it but they were beaten back by a Last
Alliance of Illuminati and Mr.Grays (from the planet Skyron in the galazxy of Andromeda. It was all part of a cosmos-girdling conspiracy to have the
blancmanges win at Wimbledon.
And as silly as that paragraph is, it isn't a pimple on the left buttock of the farcical nature of your own posts.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Sedit
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Honest to god I feel time may prove your bullshitometer may just be due for a new battery,which Im sure you will disagree on but none the lest nano
gold is proving it self very useful in many fields and Iv pulled a few papers for show and tell.
Due to the abilitys of finely divided metals Iv always liked the concept of ORMUS but it has been hard to find any hard data on the subject due to the
disposition of its supposed creater.
It makes me really wish that the creater of this threed started it as a discussion of gold nano particals instead of a discussion of ORMUS because
being a fairly new concept and its usefulness in chemistry the last three years or so since this threed was created alot could have come from its
disscussion and the author could have made his own inferences on how this relates to ORMUS.
Intriguing to me is this discovery of natural gold nano particals that apear in salty grounds simular to the soil said to isolate the ormus hudson
talked about.
| Quote: |
Nature's Own Nano Gold Found
Larry O'Hanlon, Discovery News e-mail share bookmark print
Nature's Own: July 17, 2008
---------------------------------
Miniscule triangular and hexagonal plates of gold less than 20 nanometers thin and identical to those manufactured by humans have been found occurring
naturally in salty groundwaters of Western Australia......... |
Refrence:http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/07/17/nano-gold-nature.html
It goes on to state how these have been previously over looked due to there small sizes ect...
Here is a decent little paper on the catalytic abilities of gold nano clusters and its capabilitys for conversion of CO to CO2
| Quote: | Scientists in Japan discovered 10 years ago that gold displays fantastic catalytic abilities when it is shrunk to 3 to 5 nm in size. If the gold
particles are any bigger or smaller than this, the element resumes its inertness.
One such reaction is the conversion of carbon-monoxide (CO) to carbon-dioxide (CO2). Nanogold catalyzes this at room temperature and with 100-percent
efficiency. A potential application is to aid firefighters, who now wear protective masks containing copper-manganese-oxide. That material's
effectiveness at getting rid of CO, however, lasts only 15 minutes, while nanogold protects for several hours.
|
Refrence:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/04/040428062059.htm
Artical talking about gold nanostructures made from gold salts and Tofu basicly.
Soybeans strike nanogold.
Refrence:http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/November/06110702.asp
A small artical on Nano gold catalyst.
Refrence:http://chemicalsabbatical.blogspot.com/2008/09/nano-gold-catalysts.html
Most of these discussed Au120 or the likes does any one have refrence to Au1 or Au2? Some very very small divided form of it should be the next step
here and I am Highly considering starting a new legitimate threed where david hudson dont live. As long as I dont find one already made I think I
will.
Does anyone know of ways to accomplish something of these sorts with cheeper materials such as copper or iron?
~Sedit
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Sedit
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[edit]Double post.
[Edited on 10-2-2009 by Sedit]
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Sauron
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The battery on the BSM checks out just fine.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Sedit
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So it all truth fullness do you honestly believe that mono atomic gold or Au1 can not exist?
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Sauron
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I have no idea, but I am confident David Hudson has no idea, either.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Nicodem
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Sedit, I think you are confusing gold nanoclusters (like Au55 nanoclusters which are relatively easily prepared and are of size <5nm) with the
subject of this thread (which to me is not really clear and I do not follow it, but I do notice that the main promoters do not care much about science
and use crap talk in place of evidence). Anyway, Au55 is known and possible, but a solution of atomic gold is pure fantasy as it would imply H2O (or
any other solvent) can ligate Au atoms so efficiently as it does not. Plain, unligated Au atoms would have such an enormous internal energy they would
immediately cluster together into larger aggregates (for example, Au55 or higher) or even react with oxygen or water which elemental gold otherwise
can not. With proper ligands it might be possible to have monoatomic Au(0), but this would be a complex, like for example the complex between Pd(0)
and triphenylphosphine.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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Sedit
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Nope no confusion Nicodem and I feel that Hudson and the general topic of this threed is pretty shady to say the lest so I feel that a threed talking
about nano clusters would be the best bet to get prejudice out of the way of disscussion.
However I think you answered my question of the validity of Au(1) or (0). Perhaps you are correct because at that small of a unit reactions with
anything in the vicinity would react with it. Chealating agents could possibly produce the single gold atom but a complex is not exactly what I had in
mind.
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Nicodem
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Opening a new thread about gold nanoclusters would be an excellent idea. I for one am quite interested about it. Besides, it would also give the
opportunity to discuss about it on a scientific level and leave those who prefer faith based arguments in this thread. I propose you open this new
thread with an introduction based on the references you found up to now.
Did you know it is possible to prepare chiral gold nanoclusters? Crazy, isn't it?
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not_important
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The existence of gold nanoparticles is well documented, as the difference in properties of bulk and nanocluster forms of elements. However the
elements in these don't become undetectable to conventional analytic methods, and there is considerable theoretical underpinning of the properties of
them.
For instance, the catalytic oxidation of CO promoted by gold nanoparticles :
http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/ulandman/2007/p...
http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/ulandman/2007/3...
http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/ulandman/302.pd...
http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/ulandman/304.pd...
http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/ulandman/303.pd...
Research on small clusters of gold
http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/ulandman/284.pd...
http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/ulandman/278_ha...
suggest that clusters with even numbers of gold atoms are more stable than those with odd numbers, that these small clusters interact with other atoms
and molecules to form slightly larger structures, and that monoatomic gold is not terribly stable. Indeed it appears to me that the interesting
catalytic activities happen with clusters of 7 to 20-something atoms, smaller clusters linking up or if suitably protected existing as less active
entities.
The bonding in these clusters involves relativistic effects, which are also responsible for the colour of bulk gold. These clusters are generally
stabilized by surface layers of thiols or by absorption on the surface of other compounds in bulk form (as is the case with the carbon monoxide
oxidation catalysts, where the MgO plays an important role). Midsized organic molecules such as the gummy carbohydrates also have been used to
stabilise colloidal and nano particles for quite some time..
Note that in this research gold is more reactive than in the bulk form, the opposite of the purported ORMUS gold, whose activities are of an esoteric
rather than chemical nature.
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Sedit
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Im in the process of writting up a new threed so we can lock David Hudson out but its lunchtime so itll have to wait an hour or so.
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Sauron
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I suspect you will find that vlad & Co. will not be so easily curtailed.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Sedit
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Well them and hudson always have a home here in this threed but I would advise them if they want to learn more and possibly produce some of the
substances they seek that they go to the new threed and learn a little science being the madness.
~Sedit
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Sauron
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Actually, a LOT of science. Because this topic (new) goes well beyong amateur experimentalism, doesn't it?
Anyway if the new thread sticks to solid science, with proper terminology and is well referenced (and not to books about Hebrew mythology) then I will
have no problems with it.
But if it turns to alchemy in Arizona...mumbojumbo in Mozambique or voodoo among the Virgins, well, the Bullshitometer is active.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Sedit
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I dont feel to much of what I posted in the other one is out of reach for an amateur. Albeit some of it may be but that is to be expected if one wants
to put any kind of usable data in there. For instance How is mixing soybean powder and gold salts or gold salts mixed with gum arabic as it precipates
to form nano clusters hard? Also Bacteria can structure some forms of platinum which I think will be its greatest use for chemist yet.
Hardly out of reach I think. New threed was created in a rush anyway and mainly wanted to slap some of the fundementals out there for the time
being then move on into theory later down the line when I determine how I want to go about creating them
~Sedit
[Edited on 10-2-2009 by Sedit]
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Sedit
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Well arn't you just a peach.
No my freind these are real experiments performed by real scientist. The gums and the bacteria are used for stablizing the nano clusters in specific
sizes. These are general methods being developed to try to get away from vapor desposition of the nano clusters.
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Sedit
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Scoff all you like but I have already posted the link to the RCS artical that spoke of this.
There claim is that soy contains phytochemicals then stabilise the nanoparticles, preventing from fusing together into a larger structures. Do I fully
understand it as of now.. Nope but they are also not the only one performing experiments like this just the only ones using chemicals in soy to do so.
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/November/0611070...
If you must scoff do so in the other threed after reading the links that are posted so we can put this threed to rest.
I can not validate every thing that is in the links I posted there and I make no claims on compleatly understanding the way that nano structures are
formed hence the reason for the discussion of them. Now it appears that due to this threed you seem reluctant to believe that nano cluster exist at
all and that would be compleatly failed logic.
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Sauron
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You do understand what peer reviewed journal means?
What you linked to was what we call a puff piece.
Written by an RSC staffer.
Here it is
"Soybeans strike nanogold
06 November 2007
A simple mix of soybeans, water and gold salts may hold the secret to producing gold nanoparticles without harming the environment, according to one
team of US researchers. The discovery could provide easy access to the valuable particles, which have a growing range of potential applications from
cancer therapy to telecommunications.
'We have developed a process that is inherently non-toxic - we do not make use of any chemicals at all, except for a commercially available gold
precursor,' Kattesh Katti, the researcher leading the team, told Chemistry World. The scientists, based at the University of Missouri, have patented
their discovery and created a company to develop the technology further.
Current methods of gold nanoparticle production require a variety of reagents such as hydrazine, sodium borohydride and dimethyl formamide. This makes
the process costly and potentially toxic, making it awkward to produce nanoparticles that are suitable for medical applications.
"We have developed a process that is inherently non-toxic - we do not make use of any chemicals at all, except for a commercially available gold
precursor"
- Kattesh Katti
The new process uses ordinary soybeans, commonly used to make soymilk or tofu, added to water. Soybeans are known to be a 'superfood', containing a
wide variety of beneficial non-toxic chemicals. These naturally active 'phytochemicals' leach out into the water and when gold salts are added, they
reduce the gold ions in the solution to nanoparticles. Different phytochemicals then stabilise the nanoparticles, preventing from fusing together into
a larger gold metallic structure.
'This process produces uniform nanoparticles that are an ideal size for biomedical use,' Katti added. However, he would not comment further on the
chemicals involved or how the nanoparticles were made and stabilised.
Katti's team became interested in using plants to make nanoparticles when they discovered last year that gum arabic, a common food additive taken from
the acacia tree, was able to form a coating around gold nanoparticles that makes them stable and nontoxic.1
Ravi Saraf, at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, US, uses gold nanoparticles in his research into bacteria. 'We need to be careful - although no
chemicals are being used, reducing gold can still produce potentially toxic compounds,' he warned. 'However, if this process does prove to be
environmentally-friendly throughout, then it will be a big thing. There are new applications for gold nanoparticles emerging all the time.'
Lewis Brindley"
Is that really what you want to advance as literature support?
Where's the beef?
[Edited on 11-2-2009 by Sauron]
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Sedit
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"You do understand what peer reviewed journal means?"
Nope, not compleatly anyway,but I do know that that isnt one but mearly a tool to understand the direction that differnt research these areas are
taking.
Many of the biosynthesis of nano clusters seem to be in relative infancy and it may take me some time before I locate a well written publishing on its
process seeing as I dont have access to many newer papers.
Never the lest there are a few nice ones that are along the lines that you speak of that I will post tommorow.
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watson.fawkes
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There's a footnote in that RSC article: V Kattumuri et al, Small, 2007, 3, 333 (DOI: 10.1002/smll.200600427).
It's plausible enough. Gum acacia is a highly branched polysaccharide. Plenty of steric effects to go around.
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Sauron
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A peer reviewed scientific journal is one in which all articles are submitted for review prior to publication to a referee or referrees who are
eminent figures in the specialized subject matter, there is then an exchange between the referree(s) an the autho(s) of the pepr resulting in
additions and corrections. When the referrees are satisfied onlyt then is the paper published.
The paper must meet the standards of the journal and follow its format.
Background, references, detailed experimental procedures and results, and analytical data inclusing instrumental analysis are required. For any novel
compounds claimed rigorous proof of structure and full physico-chemical characterization is required.
The ultimate test of the credibility of an article is REPRODUCIBILITY. Sufficient information needs to be provided so that the results can be
replicated, and if they cannot, the authors will probably stand in the corner wearing dunce's caps. Viz. the authors of the infamous Cold Fusion
debacle.
Kattesh Katti of U.Missouri has supposedly filed a US patent application, if so that is a public document. Patents have a somewhat different standard
to meet than do scientific peer reviewed journal articles. Katti and colleagues are obviously being entreprenurial (they formed a company) and trying
to obtain intellectual property rights is part and parcel of that. So is self promotion like posturing for that puffery in CHEMICAL WORLS.
What I want to see is the hard science in peer reviewed journals.
If there isn't any then, this might as well be the production of Unobtainium, or Gold Kryptonite a la DC Comics.
Because, sedit, THIS is how science is done.
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Vlad
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| Quote: | | Plain, unligated Au atoms would have such an enormous internal energy they would immediately cluster together into larger aggregates (for example,
Au55 or higher) or even react with oxygen or water which elemental gold otherwise can not. |
The Red Gold process I learned from the chemical engineer is claimed to create inert diatoms that form a polymer with water. I have noticed in this
process if it's not performed correctly, an ordinary colloid (light pink-magenta) is created, but if done correctly the Red Gold forms. The chemical
engineer claims the diatoms polymerize the water molecules around it and that this forms a waxy solid.
I mixed the solution of Red Gold with a magnesium hydroxide precipitate, which then became pink-red colored indicating a reaction of some sort. Then I
dried the precipitate, and dissolved the dried precipitate in a NH4Cl solution. This left me with a dark red powder that won't dissolve in aqua regia.
I don't know if this would be a nanocluster but it's still interesting to make a small gold compound like that that doesn't behave like ordinary gold.
(Yes this is not peer reviewed info I know just mentioning this because I think it's an interesting substance)
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Sauron
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Sounds more like Red Mercury all the time!
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Vlad
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I don't see why you have to criticise this. It's a novel process, not peer reviewed I realize, but isn't this an amateur science forum? If it was for
discussions of peer reviewed processes all the time it would be more a professional scientist forum imo.
All I was trying to say is exotic undiscovered substances still exist. I see no reason why you should consider it quackery. Did I mention anything
esoteric? I don't think so.
[Edited on 11-2-2009 by Vlad]
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Sauron
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No references, no details, no reproducibility, no credibility = no science.
Stop pulling our legs.
Reread your own posts, vlad and take stock of many times and how far you have placed yourself away from anythinbg that can be called Science by anyone
but Mary Baker Eddy or L.Ron Hubbard.
Your sort of Science is a lot like Soviet psychiatry...an oxymoron.
[Edited on 11-2-2009 by Sauron]
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