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oneup
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[*] posted on 8-1-2006 at 09:29
My HE PDF


I wrote a PDF about HE.
dowload it here: click
Tell me how you like it:)
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[*] posted on 8-1-2006 at 09:51


It's ok, but I don't like that you wrote down an ammonia hydroxy solution as NH4OH, this suggests that ammonia hydroxyde does exist as a salt, but it doesn't. Correct would be to say: 5% NH3, as they indicated on the bottle, or to use NH4+ (aq) OH- (aq)...

For the rest it is ok, but not really a novality...




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[*] posted on 9-1-2006 at 07:13


Well, I can see that a degree of work was put into it and it's clear and readable. Aside from the issue with ammonium salt as stated above, I would suggest a "target" as to the information.
What I mean is that it appears that the file was created to direct the user to OTC sources of materials for energetic materials. - The issue here may be what country would this be applicable or even what part of the USA....There exists a varience in the availability of materials from location to location. But be that as it may; it appears to be the "start" of a larger work.
A fellow started a web-site for OTC sources (I think on Roguesci); you may consider taking up where he left off (he did a really intense survey however). Or....you may want to further the compositions themselves and annote them with patents.
All in all it seems that it looks like a "work in progress" and as it's neat and readable I would not stop there but find a "target" for the information and continue. Very little has been done on compartitive stability vs ease of mfg. Or little known patents that are applicable today in an OTC format (Cheddites, etc).




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[*] posted on 9-1-2006 at 19:14


You could of added a detailed method for distilling the HNO3 as well as the other precursors. You should also add more primary explosives besides acetone peroxide and silver acetylide. While we're at it, you should add some more high explosive synths in there as well.

Basically what quicksilver already said :P

[Edited on 10-1-2006 by Dream of the iris]




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CD-ROM-LAUFWERK
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[*] posted on 10-1-2006 at 09:04


dont use hydrochloric acid as a catalyst for the preparation of acetonperoxid!
u will end up whit the much more sensitive diacetondiperoxid and not whit the saver triacetontriperoxid
also, dont use 80% H2SO4, its better to use 50% sulfuric acid toprevent the formation of H2SO5 so that there will be no exothermic oxidation reaction
if u let it stand for only 3h, u will end up whit, lets say, 5% of theorie...
let it stand for 3 or more days befor u add more water and filter the stuff ;)
by the way, it dont gets sensitiv if stored, it ''just'' sublimes and decompose a little bit, if u just cover the fuse whit some tape there wont happen anything :)
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[*] posted on 10-1-2006 at 09:10


Quote:
Originally posted by CD-ROM-LAUFWERK
dont use hydrochloric acid as a catalyst for the preparation of acetonperoxid!
u will end up whit the much more sensitive diacetondiperoxid and not whit the saver triacetontriperoxid
also, dont use 80% H2SO4, its better to use 50% sulfuric acid toprevent the formation of H2SO5 so that there will be no exothermic oxidation reaction
if u let it stand for only 3h, u will end up whit, lets say, 5% of theorie...
let it stand for 3 or more days befor u add more water and filter the stuff ;)
by the way, it dont gets sensitiv if stored, it ''just'' sublimes and decompose a little bit, if u just cover the fuse whit some tape there wont happen anything :)


^ See what happens when acetone peroxide pokes its head into the discussion. :mad:
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[*] posted on 10-1-2006 at 10:52


I've actually read that the HCl acetone peroxide is actually more stable. i've also never heard of using 50% H2SO4. always 80-100% is 50% actually concentrated enough?
how much should I use then?
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[*] posted on 10-1-2006 at 11:34


Quote:
Originally posted by Axt
See what happens when acetone peroxide pokes its head into the discussion. :mad:


Haha, "The mother of satan" it is! :D
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[*] posted on 11-1-2006 at 06:51


Quote:
Originally posted by Axt

^ See what happens when acetone peroxide pokes its head into the discussion. :mad:


That made me laugh for about 5 minutes......Perfecto!




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[*] posted on 11-1-2006 at 12:01


is it really true that making acetone peroxide above 10C makes it more sensitive, or is this just a myth??
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CD-ROM-LAUFWERK
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[*] posted on 12-1-2006 at 06:55


i surely know that my english sux :mad:
there was a thrade with an article about TATP telling u that HCl is the bad one catalyst and that the lower the temp is, the less sensitiv DADP forms
Quote:

i've also never heard of using 50% H2SO4. always 80-100% is 50% actually concentrated enough?

if u use 3% H2O2, than it maybe unimportant if u use 20, 50 oder 96% H2SO4
as soon as u use >20% H2O2 and konz. H2SO4 there will be some hotspots like u drop hot konz. H2SO4 into hot water
it doesnt make any difference whether u use 50% or konz. H2SO4 if <10% H2O2 used, surely :)
the H2SO4 dissolves in 3-50% H2O2, so there are already huge amouts of water, think about it
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[*] posted on 12-1-2006 at 11:22


hmm. you're german. am I right? (oder, konz.)
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[*] posted on 12-1-2006 at 11:52


Quote:
Originally posted by oneup
I wrote a PDF about HE.
dowload it here: click
Tell me how you like it:)

Oneup, you are advancing and this looks a LOT better than the stuff you wrote on those k3wly days of half a year ago :).

I'll study the document in more detail and if I find some issues, I'll let you know by PM.




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[*] posted on 12-1-2006 at 12:10


indeed, i surprise myself everytime when i think back half a year, I asked on chemixtry how to detonate ammonium nitrate, well about a few months ago I discovered nitroglycerin, wich I first detonated As-is, then I started mixing it with AN to make dynamite, and use that as booster for ANFO. I usually do about 2Kg.
I've used to use silver acetylide as detonator, becouse I often heard acetone peroxide is very dangeroes. I ran out of silver nitrate a few days ago (wich i bought online) and found out that AP isn't that sensitive at all when you do it right (temperature control, diluted H2SO4) i'm having a lot of fun and i'm learning more and more every day!
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[*] posted on 12-1-2006 at 12:25
No No No!


Please, lets not spread any more misinfomation than is needed, too many kewls have had fingers blown off because of the confusion over acetone peroxide. Lets try and think this through logically. Concentrated H2SO4 added to water is an exothermic reaction. Lots of heat is given off in the action. Go ahead, take 50 ml of concentrated H2SO4 and mix it with an equal volume of water, the solution will shoot up past 100C. Now in some reactions, this is a good thing. Preperations of Nitrotoluene and other aromic nitrates require high temperatures to proceed.

This is not one of those reactions!

Higher temperatures in this reaction(an acid-catalyzed nucleophilic addition) will cause the formation of the dicyclo- isomer. This is definatly not good, as the dicyclo- isomer more sensitive than the tricyclo- isomer. Even a little dicyclo is in a batch, the entire batch must be treated as if the entire batch is dicyclo.

Again, let me repeat. High temperature are bad. Very bad. Finger-losing bad.

Now, lets put two and two together. If Concentrated H2SO4 creates heat when added to water, and your H2O2 is in water, heat will be created when the acid is added to the mix. If using 500ml of 3% H2O2, even if it is cooled, some heat will still be produced, and some local hotspot heating will occur. This *will* create some of the less stable dicyclo- isomer. Again, this is bad.

As stated previously, this is an acid-catalyzed nucleophilic addition. This means the acid takes no part in the reaction, only drives it forward. So, in order to produce the most tricyclo- isomer, an acid that is not exothermic upon addition to water could be used. HCl is a perfect acid. As long as all ingrediants are prechilled (the colder the better) and a cooling bath is used on the reaction vessel (again, the colder the better) the odds of producing the dicyclo isomer can be greatly reduced, and thus saftey (relativly speaking) is increased.

On the matter of safety, don't don't don't make this primary if you value your extremities. OTC organic solvents are natorious for being impure. Acetone is one such of these solvents. Who knows whats in it? It may contain some ethonol. Who cares you say? Well, Acetone Peroxide is soluble in ethonol. If the ethonol is present, some peroxide will dissolve into it, the crystalize out in larger crystals as the ethonol evaporates. This is definatly not good, as larger crystals are more sensitive to shock/static/friction/tides/dust/mood of the man down the street/ect. You get the point. This is but one of many possibilities, and just so you get the idea, I'll post another possibility. If some ethly ethly ketone is present in acetone, it will form a peroxide that happends to be even more sensitive than the dimer form of acetone peroxide, and its isomer happends to be a liquid. "Why's are these crystals not drying? I'll just absorb it with a paper tow-BOOM"

A definate possibility, and its happends all the time to kewls who disregard the sensitivity of this explosive. Some less sensitive primary explosives are those such as Silver Acetylene, Picric acid, heck even NitroGlycerine is less sensitive than this explosive. Read Here if your out of ideas

Consider yourself warned.

Edit: Wow, two posts while i was getting mine in. The No No No is refering to CD-ROM-LAUFWERK's post

[Edited on 12-1-2006 by Magius]




Wait for it...
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[*] posted on 12-1-2006 at 12:59


I can't access the pdf... If someone could send it to me I'd be glad to make constructice remarks.

Acetone Peroxide is dangerous of course but one could try it for scientific purposes taking great care. We can't just ignore the peroxides as they are easy to make (so all the n00bs make it).

So, doing acetone peroxyde is great as long as you take some safety measures :

1/ Do not make great quantity of it. Using 10ml acetone is already a great quantity. Try with 1ml this may save your fingers...

2/ Do not store it for any long time. Use it in the days following its synthesis.

3/ Please, do not use conc sulfuric acid as it has already said before it's going to get fucking hot.

4/ HCl is fine but you have to think about playing ! If you look at the DPPP thread you see both TATP and DPPP are done with the same chemicals, only the amount and the order of addition are differents. If you use too much HCl you are going to yield DPPP. To all of those who think DPPP do not exist well... Mix it with AP, dissolve it in alcool and add large amount of water. Crystals will go on the top (DPPP) and other will sink (TATP).

And, remember TATP is not an end itself. Playing with organic peroxides is fun for scientific purposes only but not more than other ernergetic materials. So, try it one or two times but there is no need to set off 50g TATP for xmass or even think about it...

Picric Acid and nitrocellulose are not hard to make and worth the trial. But don't stop there too, there are really great things to discover such as complexes or clathrates or hydrazine and perchlorates derivates... Of course, before thinking about these experiment be sure to have some experience with energetic material chemistry. I remember the first time I did picric acid (long years ago) it has been a massacre : spoiled sulfuric acid had splitted all around the place, literaly eating the floor...

5/ Oh btw, never do so-called "plasticized TATP" that is quoted to be far less sensitive than normal TATP. People do it by adding TATP to nitrocellulose laquer or even polystyren in acetone and then let the whole shit drying. The result is a fucking hard matrix that, if it brakes, would give enough energy to set off the crap. If your matrix is rock hard it is NOT desensitized ! 80% of the fellow pyros I know though it was a kewl PBX till I told them the true...
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[*] posted on 12-1-2006 at 15:12


Hehe, so DPPP exist right? :D I'm curious about what the mods have to say about this... I tried the presumed reaction few times myself, but never found anything else then flower-like-AP with impurities that make it flash and leave a fireball upon detonation. Like in that Owww-yeah-movie of Hideki with 80 grams of DPPP on a stainless steel pan. Hell, if 80 grams of PETN was used with the same pan, you wouldn't be able to find anything of the pan left. :D

I think you seperated the trimer (bottom) from the dimer (on top). DPPP is supposed to have a higher density than TCAP being a higher molecular mass molecule. Which makes sense, since a high density must be nessescary for such a oxygen poor molecule to detonate with 9000m/s. It doesn't matter that the presumed "DPPP" is much finer, since it would only make the time it needs to settle on the bottom longer. No matter how fine any powder is, if it has a density greater than that of water, it will sink...

You're right about the "plasticized TCAP" however, I had a close encounter in my reckless days with 5 grams of HMTD/NC. It must have contained still about 10% acetone when it, without any obvious reason, just detonated. :o HMTD is more prone to form oxygen radicals than TCAP, but still it isn't something I will ever try again...

[Edited on 12-1-2006 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 12-1-2006 at 16:06


Actually if you use the theoretical models to approximate density (they work very fine with 99.9% molecules btw) you get a very low density, lower than 1 which is why it floats on water.

The VOD that has been discussed is a joke. DPPP wouldn't have a 9km/s VOD but rather about 5km/s only. In fact, DPPP is weaker than TATP !

I've used a computer model (running thousands of equilibria equations) to approximates severals properties of DPPP and it is shown to be a weak explosive. So the legendary grale organic peroxide is a joke while DPPP does exist.

One could ask if the model is reliable and I'd say "yes it is reliable for known molecules". I've compared the results of RDX, HTMD, TATP, PETN, NG, EGDN, Picric Acid, ... to empirical data and the results are astonishing ! The error on VOD (that's where I have the maximum error) for RDX at its highest density is less than 2% ! It's even better with perfect OB chemicals such as EGDN.

I'm currently working on a new version with much more equilibria to include other atoms : S, Si, Cl, Br and I. I'll then project the results to compare compound such as hexaiodoxybenzene with hexanitrobenzene. The only deception with this program is that it'll show you caracteristic of materials that aren't probably detonable so there is no info about sensitivity. If anybody of you have ideas of sensitivity models, tell me.

For example if pentanetrione was detonable (I guess it is!) it would have a VOD of ~2600m/s. On the lab side, you could try to make pentanetrione by adding pentanone to H2SO4/NaNO2 (oxime -> hydrolysis). Pentanetrione should be very sensitive to oxydizing agent (event air!). Butanedione does exists and can be done using MEK the same way. Sensitive to oxydizing agent too but not as sensitive as the former would be... But that's for a new thread on scimad :D
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[*] posted on 12-1-2006 at 19:41


Say, what does HO-CO-OH do in your program? I seem to remember constructing such a molecule and thinking hmm, this would rather be H2O and CO2, just like explosives... forgetting of course that it's merely the unstable (and for little enthalpy!) carbonic acid. :P

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[*] posted on 13-1-2006 at 02:35


Has anyone ever made pure dicyclco AP and comapred it scientifically to tricyclco? Federoff gives nearly identical values for impact and friction sensitivity. It seems the main variation is a slightly lower power for the dicyclo and higher volatability.

Everything I have read on the net about AP has been anecdotes thus far, and I am inclined to believe Federoff which says that they are nearly identical in sensitivity (which is still quite high, but it isn't blow up for no reason high).
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[*] posted on 13-1-2006 at 03:27


Quote:
Originally posted by sylla
Actually if you use the theoretical models to approximate density (they work very fine with 99.9% molecules btw) you get a very low density, lower than 1 which is why it floats on water.



Hmmm, I've been very creative in chemsketch working out the molecular structure of DPPP, though I never found a density value below 1 g/cm3, and always higher than that of TCAP.
Of course chemsketch is simple freeware but usualy it is not far off with it's calculated density. Just curious how you got to the density below 1 g/cm3. Did you use some other program?

This program you are developing sounds very interesting though :) Maybe you could eleborate a little about how it is constructed and what properties it can predict exactly in another thread...
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[*] posted on 13-1-2006 at 03:38


would be fun if ya could detonate pure carbonic acid :D But the flame temperature (1879°C) is really low compared to real explosives. VOD about 5700m/s (better than TATP ;)).

But remember that it works for explosives! The user has a part of responsability in the results... So there would be no difference in all the isomers if they had the same density and enthalpy. That's why TATP and DADP gives similar results.

EDIT: I've done a test with H2O, CO2 and then a mix of H2O/CO2 and it gives 0m/s as expected...

[Edited on 13-1-2006 by sylla]
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[*] posted on 13-1-2006 at 06:48


hmm the AP I have is quite sensitive... I made a small batch (only 10mL acetone) but used conc. sulfuric acid (i didn't know it yet) everytime I added the acid i heard 'psss' like mixing sulfuric acid with sodium hydroxide. and the reaction vessel (erlenmeyer) was filled with mystirous white fumes at the end of adition, with a sweetish odor.
(does anyone know what that is), yield was 4g (quite low) so I placed it on a steel plate, and tapped it very gently with a hammer and it detonated.....
then i did a new batch with 50% sulfuric acid, no strange noises and no white fumes. this ap is much more stable, I had to ram it quite hard, so hard actually that that kind of force would never be relased when just handling normally.

[Edited on 13-1-2006 by oneup]
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[*] posted on 13-1-2006 at 08:03


One word of warning here. When something is not sensitive in one occasion, then the next time it can be freakingly sensitive. You are working with solid matter, which inherently is inhomogeneous. A small crystal could be lying such that it detonates and then the entire batch will detonate. I have experienced this with KClO3/S mixes. Many times, this worked OK, always with the same way of working, until at a certain time, it ignited. Fortunately it was not in a pyro device in multigramme quantities, but just a few tens of mg for a simple experiment with my kids. Same bottle of chemicals used, same amounts used, same tools used: 26 times OK, 27th time: BOOM, or 241 times OK, 242th time: BOOM. So, never trust AP and always be prepared for detonations.

As others have pointed out, I would stick to other compounds (e.g. silver acetylide) and take for granted the extra cost. Your fingers are worth more than a few (tens of) EUR, spent on Ag or AgNO3 and CaC2.

[Edited on 13-1-06 by woelen]




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[*] posted on 13-1-2006 at 08:57


It's not that I can't afford AgNO3, It's not available anymore.
I'm thinking about primaries like lead azide, lead styphnate, Diazodinitrophenol and stuff like that, but all these things are very hard to make, for lead azide i'll have to make sodium azide, and for that i need to make hydrazine (wich is very very toxic) and isopropyl nitrite. for lead styphnate i'll have to buy resorcinol, and for diazodinitrophenol i need to reduce picric acid to aminodinitrophenol. How about MEKP? (methyl ethyl ketone peroxide) it's similar to AP, and it's made exactly the same way only Methyl Ethyl Ketone is used instead of acetone. the result is a liquid, so there will be no problems with extra large sensitive crystalls.

[Edited on 13-1-2006 by oneup]
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