kekule
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Is old picric acid gauze found in first aid kits really that dangerous?
I have read several internet reports of the bomb squad being called out to dispose of picric acid gauze found in old first aid kits. Is there really
cause for that much alarm? I collect old first aid kits and have seen many beautiful, complete first aid kits. Would old metal box kits with picric
gauze and ammonia smelling salts pose a serious threat so long as you dont bang it with a sledgehammer?
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morganbw
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Never heard of anyone being hurt by a first aid kit.
For myself -> no worry.
By the way you should get/make some picric acid and make it explode/not as easy as you would think
[Edited on 22-3-2015 by morganbw]
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Rosco Bodine
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Quote: Originally posted by kekule  | | I have read several internet reports of the bomb squad being called out to dispose of picric acid gauze found in old first aid kits. Is there really
cause for that much alarm? |
There is effectively a zero factual cause for any alarm whatever. The "bomb squad" response is purely 100% state alarmist chemophobia and ignorant
propaganda done to generate fear about the "unknown" in the minds of those who don't know better and who buy that "disinformation" alarmist
"government to the rescue" crap hook line and sinker.
Not that there aren't real dangers from unexploded ordnance ect. But old "first aid kits" aren't in that risk portfolio.
Neither are hazmat responses to broken mercury thermometers and "lead contamination" hazards usually justifiable. There is a "risk management"
hysteria and phobia that is irrationally disproportional with the reality of actual "risk analysis" associated with a lot of things that are minimal
dangers which breeds over reaction to what are not significant dangers.
At the suspenseful moment in the scary movie, the government suddenly says "boo!" Ha!, made you jump! Real comedians.
| Quote: |
I collect old first aid kits and have seen many beautiful, complete first aid kits. Would old metal box kits with picric gauze and ammonia smelling
salts pose a serious threat so long as you dont bang it with a sledgehammer? |
There is more real danger of being run over and killed by a hazardous material response team "coming to the rescue" to mitigate or perform an
intervention for an imagined danger which does not actually exist.
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Bert
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The Yellow Peril
| Quote: | “How come?” asked Leo, “It’s the best yellow dye we got.”
“Supposed to be too dangerous. Damn near as bad as TNT, extremely toxic, and inhalable,” said the Assistant Director.
“OK, I’ll take care of it.” Click.
Leo, a World War II vet who had shot a lot of TNT and had b een shot at by a lot of weapons ranging from 8 to 88 mm, did not hear the Assistant
Director start to say that the Chemist would come out and take charge. Instead, Leo walked over to the cabinet, took the little brown bottle of picric
acid, dumped the remaining 41 grams slowly into the toilet, and flushed the crystals into the septic tank.
His thoughts flew back to the early 50'swhen he and some other young refuge biologists had trapped and dyed the plump drake canvasbacks on their
communal “headquarters ponds” on the Saskatchewan breeding grounds, and then followed and recorded the movements of the yellow-backed birds for
science. He had used it by the kilogram, but that was decades ago. He even dimly recalled buying small bottles of the acid at the local drugstore when
he and the other 6th graders sprinkled it on their combs to dye their hair as a school prank.
“H-h-h-he w-w-w-what?” said Ken the Chemist, trembling as he fondled a copy of the recent Emergency Safety Order (EMS) that had been entrusted to
him by the Assistant Director. The EMS outlined with terrible forebodings all the horrible prop- erties of picric acid. “My God, he could easily
have been killed! Now I have to try and decontaminate the place.”
“Do your best,” said the Assistant Director, his voice suitably grave.
“Yes sir. By the way, I changed the locks on the chemistry laboratory again. Did you know the terrorists have orders to steal any chemical that can
be potentially useful to their cause?”
“No, but you could be right,” said the Assistant Director, rolling his eyes and already enjoying the thought of telling the Director about the
latest terrorist plot that threatened the Federal Service out here in Bumshart, Nebrahoma.
“Evacuate the laboratory,” said the Chemist. “Leo, I want you to put on this smoke mask and face shield and this bunker gear that I got on loan
from the Fire Department. Put your back to the toilet and flush it 50 times.”
“Fuck you,” laughed Leo, his eyes twinkling in mirth. “The dye is gone, you dumb shit. You want me to dig open the septic tank so you can
snorkel for any undissolved crystals? I’ve got some fusees in my truck that you can use to light up the bottom.”
Sensing a lack of cooperation and blatant disregard for the strict protocols used to handle Class AAA Schedule 3.7.9.2 hyperexplosive compounds, the
Chemist had to settle for five minutes by himself in the toilet with a leaky garden hose. But he took pleasure in the fact that he could now report
that his concern for the safety of his fellow workers had forced him to tackle the ticklish job singlehandedly.
The next day was even worse. Another 14 grams of the deadly stuff had been found in a small metal tin in another building. But this time the
Chemist’s worst fears were realized.. . container corrosion! He carefully approached the container again, making sure he did not touch it. Yes,
there it was, a telltale rust spot near the lid. The Chemist immediately locked the door of the building and flagged it all around with police tape. A
quick phone call to the Assistant Director started the process. The AD immediately called the Director, explained the fearsome situation and got
approval. He called the State Bomb Squad.
The heavy truck rolled out of the outskirts of the State Capitol. Fred, Leader of the Bomb Disposal Unit, and Charlie, the Assistant Unit Leader, had
never dealt with picric acid before. In fact, this was only their third call to duty. The first had been out in the oil fields, where a rancher had
found what remained of the wrapper of a quarter pound of RDX after the prairie dogs had chewed it up. The small charge had been rendered useless five
years ago by the wheels of a seismic crew truck. The other inci- dent was the disposal of five 2-inch firecrackers that had been found in the glove
compartment of a car full of teenagers last Fourth of July. But, after talking with the Chemist, Fred and Charlie were apprehensive.
“Got it!” said Fred as he spoke in hushed tones into his specially grounded lapel microphone that relayed the message to Charlie outside the
building and also recorded it for later analysis by the Bomb Research Division. Despite the clumsy gloves, Fred manipulated the remotely-controlled
tongs and set the deadly canister into the steel mesh bag on the radio-controlled cart.
“Ready with Sandy?” “Yup.” said Charlie, standing alongside the 5-ton bomb container with walls of sand that would receive the canister and
its sinister contents.
Everything worked with precision. Fred drove the cart out to the truck, then used the special tongs to pick up the canister and deftly set it on the
bottom of Sandy. Charlie peered through the bullet-proof window of the truck as he manipulated the controls and gently lowered the ponderous lid and
closed Sandy for the trip ahead.
The Chemist got on the phone and told Maintenance that the coast was clear and they could tear down the police tape and tell the employees to go back
to work.
“Now what shall we do with it?” said Fred.
“Best to not let it leave Federal property,” said the Chemist. “Liability in case of an accident.”
“Then let’s do it in the pit at the dumpground.” said Charlie.
“Great idea, Charlie, but what about the media?” said the Assistant Director. “This is certainly worth a story.”
“Yeah, give them a call.” said the Director.
“You got State Radio on the line, Charlie?”
“Yup.”
Because of the heavy bomb suit and lead boots, Fred almost fell over the piles of slightly used typewriters, computers, microscopes, and other
laboratory equipment that lay at the bottom of the pit, awaiting burial.
He gingerly placed the canister on the back of an old Hasselblad camera that lay lens down in the mud at the bottom of the pit.
“OK, place the charge.” said Fred. Now it was Charlie’s turn. He carefully placed the capped, one- ounce charge of C4 next to the little can and
delicately poured sand over both items. Then, ever so gently, he ran the 10-ft. length of dynamite fuse up to the top of the pit where Fred weighted
the end down with a rock. .
“Fire in the hole!” cried Fred as he pulled the ignitor ring and the bickford fuse bubbled to life.
What seemed like hours was only 51 minutes to the Unit crew, the Chemist, the Assistant Director, the reporter, and his crew from KSMA-TV, as they
watched from the top of a hill about 600 yards away from ground zero. With a SPLUT sound the charge detonated and the TV crew caught the top of the
tiny puff of black smoke as it briefly rose from the
pit. Fred missed it with the 1000 mm lens on his armored Nikon, but the Assistant Director thought he might have got it with his handheld wide-angle.
“Wasn’t very loud.” said the Assistant Director.
“Hey, these guys know what they’re doing.” said the Chemist. “They had it perfect barricaded.”
“Did you get all our names?” said the Director to the reporter.
On the long drive back to the Capitol, Fred said, “Always feels good to save lives, don’t it Charlie?” “Yup,” said Charlie, as he chest
heaved with pride. KSMA aired the disposal project during a special feature called “The Environment.. . to Protect and Serve” that was picked up
and played on some other stations, some out-of-state. Several stations saved the story and were able to tie it into their anti-fireworks material
scheduled to be aired during the upcoming Fourth of July.
The Chemist appreciated the $500 Special Achievement Award he received for his herculean efforts, but absolutely cherished the framed Certificate of
Special Achievement that now hung above his desk. His chances for promotion or lateral transfer to a position of higher authority were now greatly
enhanced.
The Director and Assistant Director chortled over the incident and the good publicity.
“Sure it cost $17,457, but it was worth every penny,” said the Director. “Really put us on the map.” “Damn right,” said the Assistant
Director. “No trouble justifying our new budget request now!”
- HORST KNALLKORPER |
[Edited on 22-3-2015 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Polverone
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I don't know where the terror comes from but I have seen several scientists express great fear over old picric acid. It's not even about fear of
sensitive metallic picrates: completely non-metallic containers of the substance are equally scary. These people are not otherwise chemophobes.
They'll handle sodium azide with ordinary caution but not fear. A historian or sociologist of science should do some digging and report why this one
substance has acquired an explosive hazard reputation so disproportionate to the actual risk.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Rosco Bodine
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In an industrial, weapons manufacturing, or bulk transportation quantity, there are several catastrophic explosions of picric acid that have been
recorded, and I am sure there are unexploded munition incidents also likely. But so far as I can tell there are zero incidents reported for the
laboratory setting involving an unexpected explosion of picric acid, across the entire history of its use from 1771 until the present. It is difficult
to improve upon a 100% perfect safety history over a period of use exceeding 200 years. During that time maybe a jar would fall from a high cupboard
shelf and hit someone on the head and cause a fatal skull fracture, but no explosion. Perhaps a worry wart could see a bottle and have a panic
induced coronary from the unbearable excitement. 
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Praxichys
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Hilariously enough, I did a final presentation back in Org 1 on picric acid... the professor was surprised to learn that it was explosive, and of its
structural similarity to TNT. I presented facts on the Halifax explosion, etc.
I should have brought some in!
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Tdep
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I had a catastrophic incident with picric acid yesterday... These are my favourite pair of jeans! I'm always amazed at how such tiny amounts turn a
bucketload of water bright staining yellow, makes cleanup difficult.
So yes, a danger to your fashion, instead of being my usual excellent self, today I looked like a moron who doesn't know how to use a highlighter.
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Hennig Brand
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Might have something to do with the fact that it was replaced by TNT for many uses as an explosive. There seems to be a tendency to label something as
terrible once it has been replaced even if the thing that replaced it was only slightly better in most respects. Also, given the huge quantities that
were handled, especially during certain periods of war, just about every bad thing that could possibly have happened probably did happen at least
once.
Bert, that story is hilarious. It just goes from bad to worse.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Student32
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| Quote: Originally posted by kekule | | I have read several internet reports of the bomb squad being called out to dispose of picric acid gauze /---/ |
Yes and no.
No
The picric acid used to treat burns is very dilute. It's like nitroglycerin spray; it's a solvent with a trace amount of the active ingredient.
Yes and No
The solvent was often water, alcohol or a combination of the two. The burn gauze was stored in thick hermetically sealed plastic bags. If the package
was damaged there's a possibility the solvent has evaporated leaving concentrated picric acid.
The original solution was very dilute, the total amount would be very small and the remaining picric acid would be distributed evenly over the gauze
resulting in a very low concentration by volume of gauze. This results in an almost non existent risk of exploding.
However there is a possibility that the left over picric acid became concentrated to where the puncture in the packaging was, resulting in a small
amount concentrated to that point. If something goes off like a tiny firecracker, this would scare most people and they'd say that the old gauze
exploded in their face.
[Edited on 12-4-2015 by Student32]
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macckone
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I think the primary concern is that the picric acid may have escaped and interacted with the metal first aid kit forming metal picrates which might
not even take a hammer to set off but I am guessing this would be milligram quantities. I have been unable to find the exact concentration used for
the picric acid ointment. I am guessing it was something between 1 and 5%. So the whole kit probably has a couple of grams at most. Not that it
couldn't injure you if your hand was in the kit and the metal picrates set it off (assuming metal picrates had formed and were unstable) but it isn't
exactly a hazmat situation regardless of what the hazmat folks think. The correct solution is dump the whole thing in water. Both metal picrates and
picric acid are stable when wet. And to be clear metal picrates are not that unstable either. Remember soldiers carried ammunition with lead picrate
primers. An I haven't heard of soldiers having their backpacks explode because of the ammunition going off.
Now as to the question of the OP, if the bandages have dried out (which is likely) it is probably best to discard them. They may have historical
value, but if someone finds out you have them, the resulting hazmat response is likely to cause you no end of headaches.
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Bert
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| Quote: | | soldiers carried ammunition with lead picrate primers |
Could you provide the reference(s) you base that statement on? There are patent references to Lead azo clathrate in priming mixtures, but I have not
seen a military mixture using this. Not that I've much experience outside of USA practices.
Lead styphnate? That's seen a good bit of military use.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Hennig Brand
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I would need to dig for a reference, but it seems to me that there was work done with lead picrate or more likely basic lead picrate for primer
formulations, but from what I remember lead styphnate came in right about the same time or slightly after lead picrate was being tested and was found
to be superior for the purpose. From what I gather (basic) lead picrate worked well in primer formulations, it was just that lead styphnate was better
which caused (basic) lead picrate to be mostly ignored for primers after that.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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macckone
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bert | | Quote: | | soldiers carried ammunition with lead picrate primers |
Could you provide the reference(s) you base that statement on? There are patent references to Lead azo clathrate in priming mixtures, but I have not
seen a military mixture using this. Not that I've much experience outside of USA practices.
Lead styphnate? That's seen a good bit of military use. |
I would have to dig up some old books. I was posting off the top of
my head. My understanding, which may be flawed, is that basic lead
picrate was used between the late 1920s and some time around the
end of ww2 by some primer manufacturers. Prior to that were the
mercury primers and simultaneously styphnate was developed
and is still in use today. How much was actually used by the military
is a better question. I don't have an actual reference to military use.
In any case my point was lead picrate isn't going to spontaneously
go off because someone looked at it funny.
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