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[*] posted on 3-4-2016 at 03:23
Tetramines and others


Anyone got anything on tetramine-metal-oxidiser salts?
Synthesis of (Al(NH3)4)(MnO4)2 and the other tetramine permanganates is possible, although they all decompose in water. Tetramine copper perchlorate is unbeliavably nasty, with energetic decomposition possible. From what I know, tetramine metal persulfates are the least sensitive. Anyone got any decent synthesis routes - TA zinc persulfate / Al persulfate might be quite useful.
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[*] posted on 5-4-2016 at 09:59


Maybe do a search with the search engine of the forum for "tetramine copper perchlorate" under user "Laboratory of Liptakov"...
Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 is quite stable...not to confuse with its hydrazino brother that is for sure very unstable!

Persulfates anions tends to be more unstable than nitrates or perchlorates ones into amino-oxoanion-metal-complexes.




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[*] posted on 10-4-2016 at 23:40
TACP


Well, well. With TACP - Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 - are experience 3 years and it without damage (still 20 fingers) or any problems at manipulations. Development running almost every day. All experiences show a very low sensitivity on friction. Compatibility with metals, especially Copper, Aluminium, Iron as cavity can be used. After prepare arises octoammine copper perchlorate. During drying and any dehydration of crystals, arises tetraammine complex, which is pretty stabile. For example, in close jar are properties same one year. According a thousand attempts, is VoD at 1,8 g/cm3 7500 m/s. Brisance of output segment of detonator, are almost identical, as from ETN at same conditions... LL...:cool:
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[*] posted on 11-4-2016 at 05:41


Now let's not get carried away about the RE of TACP which is about 1.01 or 101% TNT and sensitivity to initiation about the same or a bit less as TNR. I am very familiar with TACP and have tested it several times. A pariffinated version I have previously described along with a convenient synthetic procedure. TACP is one of the easiest reasonably stable cheaply available HE suitable for use as a base charge to synthesize and is obtainable under mild and safe conditions.

BTW there is no "octaammine" but there is a hexaammine which initially forms as a darker purple cubic crystal that is an unstable "oversaturated with ammonia intermediate" and the dark sapphire blue hexaammine complex fairly quickly loses 2 ammonias to atmosphere from the drying crystals and forms a more bright blue "cobalt blue" tetraaminne more stable form with no change in crystal form obtained on drying. I think a porosity of the crystal occurs from the leaving 2 ammonias which may aid the soaking up of molten paraffin to seal the crystals and function as a fuel for the oxidizing explosive that is TACP.

I'm sure my synthesis is posted so a search should turn it up.
Here ya go ...linkified
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24817&...


Ah! Liptakov ....imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :D I like what you have done with the place ...going further. But let's not get "inventors euphoria" making us exaggerate the RE there :P

[Edited on 4/11/2016 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 11-4-2016 at 06:28


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Maybe do a search with the search engine of the forum for "tetramine copper perchlorate" under user "Laboratory of Liptakov"...
Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 is quite stable...not to confuse with its hydrazino brother that is for sure very unstable!

Persulfates anions tends to be more unstable than nitrates or perchlorates ones into amino-oxoanion-metal-complexes.


There is a strong suspicion I have that the method of synthesis allowing for excessively large and sensitive "rogue" crystals to develop with the analogous hydrazine complexed *nickel* perchlorate is what resulted in the "grinding under hexane" accident at the Austin Texas laboratory a few years ago. Grinding a primary explosive in a mortar was a Darwin Award manipulation to be a "task" better suited for an expendable robot anyway, and I wonder HOW on the planet where I live anyone would think that would be just a swell idea as a human activity....Go Figure!
Murphy's Law takes no prisoners!

I think it is likely for the "spontaneous detonation accidents" that crystal size may be the offender same as has been isolated reports for many different energetic materials, which may also include infamous copper azide....where it may be that in some colloidal size or very limited crystal range the material itself could have useful stability, but beyond that limiting mesh ....then a definite danger resides. The compound itself gets a bad reputation for being treacherous when in fact it may be the crystal size that is the determinant factor for danger, more than simply the molecular composition.

[Edited on 4/11/2016 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 03:28


Ni(N2H4)3(ClO4)2 is said to explode even in water solution when swirling with a spoon...that the experimenter hit the side of the glass container with the spoon or that there where too big crystals in the beaker frictionizing each other is not told...
Anyway it must be taken as a serious warning for handling...

I personnally got Cu(N2H4)2(NO3)2 turquoise blue precipitate, and it is sensitive, it burst into flame while drying in cold open air, most of the batch was destroyed by formation of N2, black-brown Cu sponge...upon mixing the hydrazine hydrate alcoholic solution and the Cu(NO3)2 one... no doubt the perchlorate will be even less sympathic/friendly.

[Edited on 12-4-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 03:47


Silver fulminate is an example of what I am speaking, where the material itself is notorious for sensitivity, but there are also reported experiments where even large quantities have been handled without incident.

There have been reported cases of spontaneous detonation for lead azide and even for lead styphnate, and many many incidents for tetrazoles .......and the mechanism may not be the same for all cases but crystal dimension is a prime suspect.

Anyway, there are misleading accounts published in the literature, that have become unscrutinized "scientific folklore and legend" which are subject to careful fact checking and review. There are more than a few examples so it is not unusual for me to read things and then raise an eyebrow of skepticism and think that maybe there is more to that story than just what is reported and the preliminary conclusion may not be all there is to know about that subject.

WRT the hydrazine complexed nickel perchlorate, there is an analogous semicarbazide complexed nickel perchlorate and there may even be possible a mixed salt or double salt of the two. (and likewise there could be a nitrate / perchlorate double salt)
But the literature is non-existent about this subject which remains mysterious. I read about these obscure compounds or "imagine" them to exist .......lucky me :D



[Edited on 4/12/2016 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 05:33


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Silver fulminate is an example of what I am speaking, where the material itself is notorious for sensitivity, but there are also reported experiments where even large quantities have been handled without incident.

There have been reported cases of spontaneous detonation for lead azide and even for lead styphnate, and many many incidents for tetrazoles .......and the mechanism may not be the same for all cases but crystal dimension is a prime suspect.

Anyway, there are misleading accounts published in the literature, that have become unscrutinized "scientific folklore and legend" which are subject to careful fact checking and review. There are more than a few examples so it is not unusual for me to read things and then raise an eyebrow of skepticism and think that maybe there is more to that story than just what is reported and the preliminary conclusion may not be all there is to know about that subject.

WRT the hydrazine complexed nickel perchlorate, there is an analogous semicarbazide complexed nickel perchlorate and there may even be possible a mixed salt or double salt of the two. (and likewise there could be a nitrate / perchlorate double salt)
But the literature is non-existent about this subject which remains mysterious. I read about these obscure compounds or "imagine" them to exist .......lucky me :D
[Edited on 4/12/2016 by Rosco Bodine]

You are right that for sensitive compounds crystaline form and size may give increased sensitivity...inner crystal latice default may induce stress sothat the slightest stimulus is over the activation energy of detonation at that specific point of the crystal --> extreme sensitivity.

True that the real scientific criticism is to redo the one shot experiment (with due safety cautions and in tiny amounts) and see if what is written holds the line...and is true. If not, then ask yourself why and test again to understand what might have gone wrong then, or what was improved by the present process...

It's like me...I have tested toluen and HNO3 69% and it does nitrate while in all my organic chem books I own and I have read they insist on the fact HNO3 concentrated or H2SO4 concentrated is needed to perform the nitration by NO2(+)...even in seconds, you see reaction at the interface between toluen and HNO3 69% evidenced by a yellow tinge...this at ambiant T° (20°) and without agitation thus not helping the reaction surface and kinetic at all...
--> Books are sometimes wrong!
After a few days color is deep yellow-orange and the smell of bitter almond characteristic of nitrotoluens develops.
--> Nothing is better than self-experience and trials!

Triamino guanidine complexes might also be interesting polymers...
Or complexes of (O2N)3C-CH2-CH2-NH-NH2 and (O2N)3C-CH2-CH2-NH-NH-CH2-CH2-C(NO2)3 :D:P
Or of (H2N-NH-N4C-NH-NH2) dihydrazino-tetrazene :D:P
Imagination and dreaming is on the safe side :D
Klapote is probably reading us and will test those for us and publish papers on those in less than a week :P;):cool::):D


[Edited on 12-4-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 08:18


Klapotke / smoke key :P Their group of lab rats' best ideas are gifts from us! They love their "dogs" so maybe once in awhile they will throw us a bone. :D

And on the experimental liquid fuel scene .......those kwazeee wabbits ;)

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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 08:29


Azidoazide azide (C2N14)... :D It does actually exist!!!




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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 10:34


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Klapotke / smoke key :P Their group of lab rats' best ideas are gifts from us! They love their "dogs" so maybe once in awhile they will throw us a bone. :D

And on the experimental liquid fuel scene .......those kwazeee wabbits ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEDrMriKsFM


Wow this could come from back-to-the-future movie with the air skate board...or Rocketeer (Rocketman)

[Edited on 12-4-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 10:40


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
Azidoazide azide (C2N14)... :D It does actually exist!!!

Nope! Azido-azide would be N3-N3 since azothydric acid is HN3, N3(-) is considered a pseudohalide (cf Cl-Cl, Br-Br, I-I, N#C-C#N,...).

I gues that again you did it wrong...you meant bis-tetrazolylazide what would indeed be C2N14.

Let me say to you that we are not supposed to read between the lines of your mind...again think twice and reread before posting...

Also: What's the point with this tread?




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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 12:28


Azidoazide azide is a rather questionable name Derek Lowe came up with in his blog post about 1-diazidocarbamoyl-5-azidotetrazole (http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2013/01/09/thi...).
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[*] posted on 13-4-2016 at 10:45


Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  
Azidoazide azide is a rather questionable name Derek Lowe came up with in his blog post about 1-diazidocarbamoyl-5-azidotetrazole (http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2013/01/09/thi...).

Thanks Dornier 335A for this gem/pearl.

I think that maybe they would have more stability if they had joined the two tetrazolyl groups not by the N atom but one by the N and the other by the C.
Or an alternative isomer (N3-)2C=N-N=C(N3)2 (bis-diazidocarbyl azine).
Just for the beauty of it, they could try (N3)3C-N=N-C(N3)3 (C2N20) --> bis-azidoformyl azene (bis-triazidomethyl-azene).

Where goes the world if we have to correct not only typos and mistakes from new careless users, but also from writers outside this forum ... its like a Sisyphus Myth (Le Mythe de Sisyphe ;) in french)

[Edited on 13-4-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 13-4-2016 at 11:10


That isomer has been made, for example by the forum member Engager. It's called isocyanogen tetraazide in the literature and words like "sensitive" and "explodes with terrible violence" are never far away. It's not nearly as bad as Klapötke's monster molecule though.

One molecule I'd like to see is 1,1'-azobis(5-azidotetrazole), C2N16. Considering that 1,1'-azobis(tetrazole) (C2H2N10) is already more powerful than HMX and pictures of shattered lab equipment are included in the paper about it, it might turn out to be a really really bad idea.
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[*] posted on 13-4-2016 at 13:37


Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  
That isomer has been made, for example by the forum member Engager. It's called isocyanogen tetraazide in the literature and words like "sensitive" and "explodes with terrible violence" are never far away. It's not nearly as bad as Klapötke's monster molecule though.

One molecule I'd like to see is 1,1'-azobis(5-azidotetrazole), C2N16. Considering that 1,1'-azobis(tetrazole) (C2H2N10) is already more powerful than HMX and pictures of shattered lab equipment are included in the paper about it, it might turn out to be a really really bad idea.

Another way to increase stability, density (cyano induces more density increase than azido) and stil a decent energy content increase is to replace some N3(-) groups by C#N(-) ones
--> 1,1'-azobis(5-cyanotetrazole) (C4N12)
N#C-(CN4)-N=N-(CN4)-C#N

Or to go polymeric (or in the polymeric spirit) from there...
--> N3-(CN4)-(CN4)-N=N-(CN4)-(CN4)-N3
--> N#C-(CN4)-(CN4)-N=N-(CN4)-(CN4)-C#N
--> (-(CN4)-(CN4)-N=N-)n




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[*] posted on 14-4-2016 at 00:41


Sorry about my 'azidoazide azide' screwup. It was the only name I knew for it, and I have not particularly worked with explosive azides/tetrazoles (they seem slightly too sensitive for garage chemistry.)



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[*] posted on 14-4-2016 at 08:59


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
Sorry about my 'azidoazide azide' screwup. It was the only name I knew for it, and I have not particularly worked with explosive azides/tetrazoles (they seem slightly too sensitive for garage chemistry.)

Not only for garage chemistry ... but also for lab chemistry if you stil plan to work on it (or other insane HE) in the lab of your teacher...
Lab is full of glasware ...just remember the worst case scenario: glass schrapnels cut but also pierce...and once in flesh...hard to find and extract...




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[*] posted on 15-4-2016 at 00:01


Don't I ever fucking know. One of my friends nearly died after a large flask blew up when he put 20g of NaOH in at the same time whilst synthing silver fulminate.. The reaction was violently exothermic. Boom. As for HNP, I have been using body protection within an empty lab with all reactions boxed into blast shields. Just RIP fume hood...




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[*] posted on 15-4-2016 at 05:32


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
Don't I ever fucking know. One of my friends nearly died after a large flask blew up when he put 20g of NaOH in at the same time whilst synthing silver fulminate.. The reaction was violently exothermic. Boom. As for HNP, I have been using body protection within an empty lab with all reactions boxed into blast shields. Just RIP fume hood...


Show us photographs or link the newspaper article about that silver fulminate "accident" of "your friend" or please STFU with your bullshitting and get off this serious science forum and don't come back here to waste our time until a good long while AFTER you grow a brain.

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[Edited on 4/15/2016 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 15-4-2016 at 08:26


Eh?? :mad:

1) When my friend is bleeding to death, I dont stop to take photos.

2) I'm 34. This happened in 1999, and there was no real internet then...

I can understand why you think that, but cynicism is unattractive.




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[*] posted on 15-4-2016 at 10:33


alt.engr.explosives goes back to 1998 and earlier and accidents of any significance were reported

cynicism isn't nearly as unattractive as bullshit like you have been steadily piling here, and you really need to find a peer group of other bullshitters who are amused

BTW none of what you say rings true, it is like you have come here to pretend

Now here is 16 year old country mountain girl with a mandolin who means business

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[*] posted on 15-4-2016 at 13:02


Yes. I using the same detector. But my detector shows this:...:cool:...LL

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[*] posted on 16-4-2016 at 13:48


I know that what I'm saying might not ring true.
I believe that you have no substantial evidence to say that the bullshit is off the scale.
I know that you think I'm just a new attention seeker.

But please do not convince other people of your view: I have greatest respect for all of you, and I don't want false representations.

Sorry if what I said pisses you off.




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[*] posted on 16-4-2016 at 22:16


Any self respecting chemist would not mess with a large amount of silver fulminate in glass. Or even a large amount of silver fulminate do that matter. Or any amount of silver fulminate for that matter Forget putting 20 g of NaOH on it. There's just no need since it's a pretty well researched material with little use other than a lab curiosity in micro amounts or on fun snaps.
Nitrogen rich super explosive: this story may be fine for bombshock or TOTSE but you only set yourself up for ridicule telling them here.




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