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joeflsts
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| Quote: | Originally posted by quicksilver
Whether it's legal or illegal; a sting or a sleaze, the bottom line is that it's about cooking crap. And cooks hurt the public and the hobbyist. Cooks
have done more to fuck up this hobby than anything else imaginable. |
No argument here.
Joe
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microcosmicus
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In the end, it may not really matter whether The Chemical Closet happens to be a
front set up by the police or an actual business which caters to cooks. Assume that
the latter is the case. Since it is outside their jurisdiction, U.S. authorities can not
do much more than make faces at it. However, The FBI can certainly use its
carnivore program to keep track of any orders placed from the U.S. As soon as
they see that an American places an order there, they can wait for the package
to be sent, intercept it, and arrest the sender for purchasing an illegal chemical
and using the mail service for illegal purposes.
Even if the place were located in the U.S.,Ｉcould see that the police might not
want to shut it down right away. Rather, they could do as described above and
simply keep tabs on who buys from there. Only later, once they figure they've
gotten all the cooks who bought from there would they shut bust the business;
by that time, they would have more than enough evidence to lock up the
proprietors for good and trow away the key.
Either way, there remains the problem that purchasing and stocking chemicals
and apparatus is viewed as a suspicious activity and that home science is not
viewed in a positive light but all too often regarded at best as a dubious
activity and, at worst, as a front for cooking drugs and bombs.
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quicksilver
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Location: Inches from the keyboard....
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Agreed. I would even tend to think they would let most orders go through (we allude to the thing being offshore, etc), find the big fish and develop
prosecutable scenarios that branch from them. The "little fish" are picked up when they have a vicious case that can't be plea bargained away.
However, your "bottom line" is what I tend to think is the most painful and indisputable.
With the type of laws and the type of tracking in place today, I would even be weary of checking out the site anymore. This avalanche of paranoia is
what I resent as a by-product of the whole mess. Personally, I can't see not being paranoid with the methods in place to thwart the drugs, etc.
Perhaps that really the point of the exercise?
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MagicJigPipe
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"I`m quite astonished that they actually Sell adrenaline, it`s almost Begging for trouble!"
I didn't see adrenaline (epinephrine) for sale anywhere on that site. Where is it?
Also, I don't believe giving ephedrine for bites is standard practice.... wait, I see. I think you may be getting ephedrine and epinephrine
confused.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Pyridinium
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chemicalcloset.co.uk
I recently received a spam email from Chemicalcloset.
Not sure why they picked me, as I intensely despise drug cooks.
It seems the owners of sugar traps think that just because someone is interested in chemistry that they must be a drug cook. 
I kindly emailed them and told them to go away.
Anybody else getting spam emails from chemicalcloset? I don't sign up for this sort of rubbish, still not sure how I got on their spam list.
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joeflsts
Hazard to Others
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pyridinium
I recently received a spam email from Chemicalcloset.
Not sure why they picked me, as I intensely despise drug cooks.
It seems the owners of sugar traps think that just because someone is interested in chemistry that they must be a drug cook.
I kindly emailed them and told them to go away.
Anybody else getting spam emails from chemicalcloset? I don't sign up for this sort of rubbish, still not sure how I got on their spam list.
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I got one today as well. I told them to not spam me anymore.
Joe
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evil_lurker
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Same here.
I'm wondering how the hell they got our email addresses to begin with.
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in
beer.
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MagicJigPipe
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From this site? I sent them an email not too long ago bashing them for hurting home chemistry and supplying drug cooks. They replied with "these
chemicals are legal in the UK".
GOD! That doesn't matter! That wasn't my point but they twisted it that way. I believe I also implied that I thought it was likely that their site
was a govt/LE operation.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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joeflsts
Hazard to Others
Posts: 226
Registered: 14-1-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
From this site? I sent them an email not too long ago bashing them for hurting home chemistry and supplying drug cooks. They replied with "these
chemicals are legal in the UK".
GOD! That doesn't matter! That wasn't my point but they twisted it that way. I believe I also implied that I thought it was likely that their site
was a govt/LE operation. |
Maybe it is an LE site - I hope so. It should thin the herd so to speak.
Joe
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pantone159
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Location: Austin, TX, USA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by evil_lurker
I'm wondering how the hell they got our email addresses to begin with. |
Indeed very very curious. No spam for me, though (at least yet).
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soxhlet
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Brian Howes is fighting for his life. Lawyers for Kerry-Ann claim that she is so emotionally traumatized as to be unable to participate in her own
defense.
It does look as if time is running out for them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/03_04_08_HMA_v_Ho...
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Sauron
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Can't do the time?
Don't do the crime!
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Pulverulescent
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Mood: Torn between two monikers ─ "hissingnoise" and the present incarnation!
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The extradition could still fail and I just hope to fuck it does. . .
P
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Sauron
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Perhaps, but I wouldn't bet me last shilling on it.
Remember, these people racked up $450,000 selling red phosphorus at inflated prices into a country where it is contraband.
This was not a small time, mom and pop little operation. There aren't enough pyrotechnic hobbyists in the world to consume that much red P, and
especially not paying those absurd prices for it. Hobbyists in the UK did not need to buy from them as they can just buy through normal channels.
They were profiteering off a demand from the illegal meth cooks, there is evidence that they were well aware of the nature of their buyers, and they
thought they were shielded by UK law.
They were mistaken.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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MagicJigPipe
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Location: USA
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The only problem I have with this is that red phosphorus is not technically illegal to order, sell or import(?). If they were selling phenylacetone,
okay, no problem. Actual drugs? No problem there. But something that is (and should be) legal (I know the way they did it and their intentions made
it illegal but...) in the first place.
At least their not going after all the people that bought from them because it is sure to include SOME hobby chemists or pyrotechies that were just
not very good shoppers.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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JohnWW
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Where did they get their bulk supplies of red P from in the first place? Or did they make their own, by reducing phosphates (e.g. ground-up rock
phosphate), and if so, how did they do it?
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Pulverulescent
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Mood: Torn between two monikers ─ "hissingnoise" and the present incarnation!
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IMHO, circumventing laws which should not exist should be a moral right.
'Like synthesising AA, for instance!
Any profits resulting from that is more or less incidental!
These fucking prohibitions diminish us all!
And I have two good reasons for voicing my opposition. . .
P
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soxhlet
Harmless
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
The only problem I have with this is that red phosphorus is not technically illegal to order, sell or import(?). |
MJP is aware that listed chemicals are illegal to sell and/or import without obtaining registration. Furthermore, the buyer is an active
coconspirator in any illegal distribution scheme.
| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
At least their not going after all the people that bought from them because it is sure to include SOME hobby chemists or pyrotechies that were just
not very good shoppers |
Not true. Look at Operation Red Fusion. DEA went after KNO3 customers for several years prior to indicting the UK couple.
Also, if interested, go to Brian Howes youtube and watch the three part BBC documentary on KNO3.
Howes was initially raided in 2004 and the customer list was given to DEA. In summer of 2005 the customer list was raided in USA and labs were found
in some 15 states. In 2006, KNO3 internet communications were being intercepted as part of the terrorist surveillance program.
I hope the Scottish High Court refuses extradition as well. However, I don’t hold out much hope. This case is very similar to a 2003 case where
GBL was shipped in San Francisco and extradition was granted.
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Pulverulescent
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Mood: Torn between two monikers ─ "hissingnoise" and the present incarnation!
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Two of the chemical elements (non-radioactive) are now virtually outlawed!
How fucking sick is that?
Does it make anyone else want to throw up?
P
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Sauron
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That varies from country to country. In some places red P is available, and so is Iodine. Where I am, red P is not available, without a special MOD
permit, but Iodine is unrestricted. And here there is a substantial meth problem. The authorities do not target the useful pecursors so much - they
just summarily execute the meth cooks and dealers.
I regret not being able to obtain red P for experimental purposes.
The meth cooks are chasing big money and care nothing for the risks or the consequences for others. Consumed by greed.
Likewise, the operators of kno3.com were chasing money, thought they had found a niche and miscalculated their legal liability. More casualties of
their own greed and avarice.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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MagicJigPipe
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Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
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It's too bad we can't throw everyone in jail for being consumed by greed and not caring about others.
I just think the prison sentences for meth cooks and dealers are way too extreme. There are a lot more people in the world that cause a lot more
death and destruction than meth cooks that operate within the law.
See, and I started out thinking all meth cooks should go to prison for life. Now I try to look at the big picture. Yes, they hurt people. But what
about everyone else? Why must we go after people that are just misled (don't mean to hurt anybody) and are going through a rough spot in their life?
We should go get the people who KNOW what they are doing and mean to do it. Or we should at least have to prove that the meth they are selling and/or
making actually killed or severly maimed someone (even then, the problem with this country is that we blame everyone else for our mistakes. How about
IT'S THE USER'S FAULT. Kind of like how it's the alcoholic's fault and not the people who made the beer). I mean, my ex-girlfriend's father died of
hepatitus caused by a lifetime of drinking. By the same standard that we use to justify the hatred of methcooks, she should have been able to sue the
alcohol companies and have the CEOs (and possibly even the people that make the booze) thrown in jail. What's the difference other than law? One or
the other. Double standards like that should not exist. It's hypocritical, IMO.
None of this makes sense anyway... We are all heading down a terrible road.
I thought the red phosphorus/iodine thing was basically just the USA. But yes, Pulverulescent, it does make me want to projectile vomit. In fact,
I'll be right back, I have to run to the bathroom AGAIN.
[Edited on 5-9-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
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Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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I can't think of anything more arrogant than proscribing one the building blocks of the universe.
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MagicJigPipe
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Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
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In a sane world someone would have stood up and said, "You can't ban a fucking non-fissionable element!"
Then "You're right. What were we thinking? What do we think we are, gods?"
Heh, yeah right...
What about when technology provides a way for citizens to induce the fusion of hydrogen? Are they really going to try and ban hydrogen (say bye to
water and most organic compounds!)? That's laughable. What's next? Any compound that contains red phosphorus or iodine? Yes! Iodides are
next!
[Edited on 5-10-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sauron
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Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
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Industry still can buy red P, white P, I2.
Academia and institutions as well.
Anyone with a List 1 License and too.
No one has banned or proscribed anything, they have taken steps to keep these out of the hands of meth cooks and in the process they have
inconvenienced hobbyists.
So don't overstate your case. Hyperbole is uncalled for.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Pulverulescent
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Posts: 793
Registered: 31-1-2008
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Mood: Torn between two monikers ─ "hissingnoise" and the present incarnation!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
The authorities do not target the useful pecursors so much - they just summarily execute the meth cooks and dealers. |
Sauron, you're an obviously intelligent man and you seem magnanimous by nature, but, with respect, doesn't your statement, above, delivered in a
somewhat off-hand manner, seem a stark contrast with your Edmund Burke quote?
Burke intended that (maxim) as a serious observation!!!
Not just a throwaway remark!
And of course, If I were in industry or academia, which I'm certainly not, I'd have few problems with acquisition, but that's not the point.
My interest in chemistry does give me great pleasure, but Thai sticks, for example, have, for me at least, that same potential.
P
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