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Magpie
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[*] posted on 13-7-2017 at 07:19


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
You raise good points there Praxichys. I hadn't considered the risks from that angle.


Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with Praxichys. The sanctity of SM must be protected at all costs. It is the most important tool of the hobby chemist.




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[*] posted on 13-7-2017 at 07:28


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
It does seem to be an orchestrated effort to demonise anyone with an active interest in chemistry under the guise of protecting the public from terrorist activity.


It's all about what an average individual needs. Nobody needs to do chemistry in the garage, and most people doesn't even want to. So there really isn't any reason for allowing possession of potentially harmful chemicals.

If you think we chemists have it rough you should try being interested in firearmss... Two of my friends got busted for some illegal guns a few years ago, you would not believe the amount of shit that hit the fan that day.


No one needs to race cars, no one needs to play football, no one needs to shoot guns...but some people want to. And they are mature enough to do it without hurting anyone else. By and large anyway.

I do appreciate that prohibited chems are a slightly different matter, but the principle is the same. Life can be routine and boring...so people race cars, play games, shoot guns...and practice home chemistry.
This is about personal freedom - why should I have my freedoms to amuse myself curtailed or removed because a few bad apples won't play the game properly...?

Also, given the recent propensity for using vehicles and the fact that hydrogen peroxide, nitric acid, (per)chlorates etc are now (in the UK anyway) are really difficult to obtain, we are going to see more and more vehicular terrorism.

On the other side of the coin, and if the reports are true, then by not getting a home office license he has brought some of this upon himself.


The cynical part of me thinks that this was all done (bomb squad, evacuate the street etc) to perpetuate the overblown threat of terrorism to the public at large and to reinforce to the public the incorrect notion that chemicals = bad.

Don't get me wrong, there IS a terrorist threat but if they were really serious about 'terrorising' the public there are far easier and more effective ways of doing it than driving into people randomly.


Angel.




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[*] posted on 13-7-2017 at 09:11


Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
Yep, and to be honest I don't think a gofundme is a good idea.

It will just show that the amateur chemistry community is willing to support the illegal possession of restricted substances by people with mental health problems and a history of criminal substance abuse.

If the public has been made to believe his actions aided terrorism, receiving financial support from us only makes it look like we must support terrorism as well. If anyone figures out this funding is even remotely related to SM, this board and its English members will be under investigation in an awful hurry.

I can see the headline now: "Terrorist-Supplying Breaking Bad guy Sponsored by Online Chemist Ring distributing Explosive How-Tos" and "Sleep Safer Tonight: English Members of Supply Ring Raided, More Dangerous Chemicals Confiscated, Three Jailed"

Further, England has an internet censorship law specifically about "regulations against incitement to terrorism". I'd hate to see SM blacklisted by English ISPs.


Of course you are correct, and I withdraw my idea.

Such support definitely could be misinterpreted.

Unfortunately, public "perception" of a propagandized reality substitutes as an equivalent for factual reality as an illusion in the minds of many. If the true circumstances are not known, best guesses from incomplete news summary is all people know. And about the information that is not correct, they are unaware.

For this particular case it is evident a "public perception" has been crafted and published by the media and by the authorities, which conveys a general idea that is definitely negative towards amateur science as a private pursuit. This jeopardizes a personal liberty being abolished as an acceptable sacrifice of personal liberty to be made on the altar of "public safety".

No one needs a map to see what direction the increasing regulations have been going is towards a complete prohibition, where science is going to become a pursuit restricted to an elite who are "licensed" and authorized, and the vast majority of people are simply SOL.
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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 05:31


Actually its pretty straight forward, the main chemicals of issue were chlorates and perchlorates. The nitric acid was mentioned on the first TWO advisory visits from the police.

Actually he was lucky, this is a quick breakdown of events....

2 separate people/incidents result in the murder of 2 people. Member gets a visit for supply, during visit member is advised to get a license. Now a quick point on this one......

The member didnt NEED a license as such, actually as he was selling chemicals he could of registered his company as a LTD business (like USA inc ), however this would of meant the member would have had to comply with storage laws and things like flammable safes for liquids etc. Proper labels etc etc etc. But it would have made him exempt from the license.

Second visit he would of been warned to comply (very rare to get a second warning), member refused to comply and also refused to even try and comply with the rules regarding storage and labels etc.

Having started the process of setting up a business, and having had a visit from the police (my invitation), i think alot of this is arrogance. Sorry if that offends people, but the truth is if you get two warnings and ignore them then expect trouble. The murders are a bit of a red herring, they merely got him the visit. From the open magistrates transcript (you do a FOI request to see them, this was a open court session), it is clear he got hung up on the murder thing, i think he thought he was being blamed for it 9in a way he was).

But ultimately he was a business, however he CHOSE to operate as a sole trader, this requires a license to posses chlorates etc. Or as I said before he could have registered the business, a license has yet to be issued to anyone, the reason is simple. Its considered that if a license is required, then normally it is better to registered as a business or work under a research agreement with a uni. Not work from home...

Bottom line, dosnt matter what you think of the rules, if you get a visit and a warning and dont comply, you dont leave any options open for the police. Personally i think a professional chemist should act like one, he admonished some for shoddy business practice, and yet didnt remotely comply with rules regarding storage.
Looking at the pics and videos he got off lightly, had he been a LTD company then other H&S rules would likely of been included in charges.

I have no idea why he wasnt prosecuted for a number of other offenses you can see in the pics, so to me 8 months was a light sentence compared to what you can get. Perchlorates and Chlorates stored amongst all the other stuff in the shed, probably packed the same way, seriously WTF would you expect over reacting non chemist law enforcement to do? Absolutely no effort was made to comply, even if he stopped trading you would of expected more professional behavior.

As a side note

Say you owned an illegal gun in the UK, the police show up twice and tell you to register it (they wouldnt trust me), even though it carries a minimum of two years inside, would you still ignore them and do it your way?

One last thing...
Politics and Chemistry dont mix!

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 08:37


I like Blogfast a lot and admire his work to make AlCl3. His lab looked a little messy, and I don't know about his storage practices.

Thanks NEMO for your post - it explains a lot. I agree with all your points. I just wish he would come back to the forum instead of hanging out with those physics nerds.




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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 08:48


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... Perchlorates and Chlorates stored amongst all the other stuff in the shed, probably packed the same way ...


Bloggers certainly knows what happens when you mix up chemicals A and B in a beaker, bucket or Shed.

The containers he was shipping his wares in were HDPE, UN approved for general chemical shipping & storage (i bought some from him), so i would guess it more likely that he used the appropriate container for the more 'active' items, seeing as he had a big supply of them on hand.

You suggesting that he did not know what he was doing with the storage & handling of his stuff is as farsical as me saying he got his maths wrong.

He had been medically unwell for quite some time before, and during both visits, so maybe ...

Hope he has not suffered too badly in the slammer, and that he returns here one day.

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by aga]




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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 09:20


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... Perchlorates and Chlorates stored amongst all the other stuff in the shed, probably packed the same way ...


Bloggers certainly knows what happens when you mix up chemicals A and B in a beaker, bucket or Shed.

The containers he was shipping his wares in were HDPE, UN approved for general chemical shipping & storage (i bought some from him), so i would guess it more likely that he used the appropriate container for the more 'active' items, seeing as he had a big supply of them on hand.

You suggesting that he did not know what he was doing with the storage & handling of his stuff is as farsical as me saying he got his maths wrong.

He had been medically unwell for quite some time before, and during both visits, so maybe ...

Hope he has not suffered too badly in the slammer, and that he returns here one day.

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by aga]

Aga a couple of points.

I wrote the above after careful thought and a fair bit of research. in many ways it actually open more questions than it answers.

Your first point about alluding to Bloggers not knowing what he was doing.
Absolutely NOT! The exact opposite, but that for me is the hardest part to understand. I also had chemicals supplied by him, all packed correctly, however the label on one was incorrect, this is actually understandable as the regulation is somewhat obscure.

The pictures show what appears to be a flammable substance on a work bench, over 500ml is not allowed to be stored on a work bench or kept above shoulder height. Ok we dont know how much is in the container, however if its under 500ml, then he falls fowl of the rules that dictate appropriate size of container.

In the court case it was noted by the judge that he fully understood the rules (hats off to him for that!!).

Blogfast went out of his way to try and help teach me, it was going well until it became a kind of one upmanship with others. Alot of us noobs got lost quickly, this wasnt down to Blogfast at all. So i owe him a debt of gratitude.

So lets try and apply a little science to this and leave emotion out of it.

Did he know what he was doing?

Yes 100% he knew the law and rules.

Had he been warned?

yes he had been given two chances to comply and didnt.

Whats my real point?

Loads of people on here including blogfast moan and campaign for better understanding of home science, most dont want to see it banned completely. A trained chemist shows complete disrespect for the law, how much damage do you think this alone does to home chemistry?

How can a true amateur argue they are competent and responsible to comply, when even a trained chemist isnt willing to play by the rules at home?

His shed does surprise me, for someone so anal in some ways, it did surprise me that his shed wasnt covered in signs etc etc.

I think potentially he has damaged the home chemistry image, i also think he did it out of shear arrogance rather than malice.

Do i personally think the sentence was harsh?

Tough one to answer. On a personal level i am really sad he went to prison.

On a completely unemotional level, i know he was dealt with lightly, the offenses he was charged with carry a maximum of two years inside, he ignored two warnings.

If you think he has been dealt with harshly then think again, even owning potassium Nitrate and storing it incorrectly caries a penalty. I can spot 30-40 offenses in his shed and i barely know half the rules!!

My gut feeling is, had they really been trying to make an example then he would have had the book thrown, it is possible he could have been looking at 5-7 years served time.

I am not trying to be superior, i am posting as much info as i can in the other thread, as many rules and information as I can find. I dont ever want to see another member like Blogfast face what he has.

And yeah like you i also had the occasional pm with him, like i said he helped me alot, i liked him alot faults and all!

I have written this in the same spirit you wrote yours, and i thank you for the way you posted it. i am aware how much of friendship you had, so i expected a much less measured response to be honest.

I do agree 1000% with the wish that prison hasnt had too much of an impact on him. I dont think he will be back, i think it would be unwise for him. That alone is a real loss to us all, and number one reason for us all to make sure we self police.

Bloggers I know you read this, what i wrote i was sincere in.

NEMO

EDIT
Aga the bit aimed directly at you is this. I am aware he Knew EXACTLY what he was doing, he had advised me on a storage issue, however in the video/pics he has done the exact opposite of what he told me to do..

So I think its a case of do as I say and not as I do. But dont even think i am anything but gutted for him, cross at him yes, but deeply upset for him as well.

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 11:00


Yeah.

I'm gutted too.

He taught me more about Chemistry than anyone, and managed to be an Inspiration many times.

Since he went down, i've hardly done anything at all chem-wise.

Can't seem to summon the enthusiasm anymore.




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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 11:47


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Yeah.

I'm gutted too.

He taught me more about Chemistry than anyone, and managed to be an Inspiration many times.

Since he went down, i've hardly done anything at all chem-wise.

Can't seem to summon the enthusiasm anymore.

I hope he goes onto the physics forums, the bits i will miss are actually, the posts where you and him talk maths, i dont understand a single word of it! But its kinda fascinating at the same time, its made me try and learn maths (i am really retarded at maths, literally).

Thx for taking what i posted in the manner i intended it to be taken.

Just a thought, but i think bloggers would be pissed off if you didnt use the knowledge he helped you gain.

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 12:03


Does anyone have an estimate on his release date?
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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 12:22


Quote: Originally posted by ELRIC  
Does anyone have an estimate on his release date?

It is past his release date, if he has behaved. So i think it safe to assume he is home, where he should be.

I got nothing useful to add, so thats me done in this thread. Best wishes to all

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 12:53


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... the posts where you and him talk maths, i dont understand a single word of it! ...

Erm, you mean the bit where he taught Maths & Quantum to anyone who wanted to learn, and it ended up just me trying to learn ?

Crying shame really: He has the patience of a Saint, and is an Excellent Teacher.

Not that i have used Calculus recently, but the whole idea is still there in the old noggin.




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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 13:45


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... the posts where you and him talk maths, i dont understand a single word of it! ...

Erm, you mean the bit where he taught Maths & Quantum to anyone who wanted to learn, and it ended up just me trying to learn ?

Crying shame really: He has the patience of a Saint, and is an Excellent Teacher.

Not that i have used Calculus recently, but the whole idea is still there in the old noggin.

I think it ended up only you understanding it! many of us carried on reading but you progressed way faster than most could keep up, a great achievement.

You have a good grasp of maths, but some of us are really retarded in that department :D. I agree though he was a good teacher, which is utterly ironic considering the job thing. he would have made an excellent teacher at a decent school, might still be an option.

Some the others on here teach, bloody shame none were at my school :(
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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 13:51


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... but you progressed way faster than most could keep up ...

OMG.
That never occurred to me at all.

Shit. So by learning too fast i stopped others learning. Oh shit.

Sorry to all. That was in no way the intention.

Feck.

When he comes back as his old self, i will try not to be so enthusiastic, but it might be hard, especially after a beer or two.




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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 14:54


I think Blogfast is a chemical engineer, like me. But he knew much more about advanced math and physics than I ever did.

I think through all this he was recovering from a major gut illness. Aga likely knows much more about this.




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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 14:56


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... but you progressed way faster than most could keep up ...

OMG.
That never occurred to me at all.

Shit. So by learning too fast i stopped others learning. Oh shit.

Sorry to all. That was in no way the intention.

Feck.

When he comes back as his old self, i will try not to be so enthusiastic, but it might be hard, especially after a beer or two.


Nah its ok, what happens is you learn, we watch and then go back over the thread. Normally you ask most the shit we would anyway, the downside of it is, you dont get to see others learning. So its more like we watch you but you dont get to watch us.

Plus anything that crops up you tend to answer in other threads, all works out in the end.
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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 19:20


Yeesh, I didn't know the end result of the matter - the jailing - and just read through the thread. Did he get parole?
Also, noticed this:

http://www.thelawpages.com/criminal-offence/Acquiring,-impor...

If I'm using the website correctly, he was the only one to have had this specific offense....




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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 20:00


Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Yeesh, I didn't know the end result of the matter - the jailing - and just read through the thread. Did he get parole?
Also, noticed this:

http://www.thelawpages.com/criminal-offence/Acquiring,-impor...

If I'm using the website correctly, he was the only one to have had this specific offense....

From what i know so far on the law, this is the most lenient offense he could be charged with. The other offenses that are similar in scope carry harsher sentences and are terror related ones.

As harsh as his punishment sounds, I think its important to keep in mind they didnt have any option to do nothing, so i think they tried to be lenient as they could while still punishing what is a pretty crime here.

Most the people who have had similar charges so far, have all been charged with more serious versions of this offense. So yes it does look like he is the first one.

It is also the cheaper offense (from a fine perspective) that he could have been given, as above I think the reality is, they could have inflicted real pain had they desired. It isnt uncommon for the full costs to be sort!

Had he have had a grass farm, and extracted by say Butane, then the ££££ cost of the operation would have been charged to him. Obviously i wasnt there, this is based purely on the information i am researching on the UK law around home chemistry.

he is not a bad person (far from it) i think this was recognized, but on the other hand the courts dont take kindly to those that ignore directives from the police. Hindsight is wonderful, i am positive had he been thinking clearly this wouldnt have happened.

Shit how many of us have got in some trouble because we refuse to see someone elses perspective? Prison in no picnic, i expect he would have got a cat C or maybe if lucky a CAT D prison, but still no holiday. I am sure it wont take him long to recover from that, the ban from chemistry however is a real bitch.

The law used is based on the poisons act, but it was a recently added clause they used. Considering some of his views that were known to the police, he must have convinced them he was pretty decent, some of his comments alone can get you prison time here now.

Seriously though i dont want to comment further, like aga the more i think about it, the more i find it upsetting. Whatever you thought of him, he had a good heart and he helped alot of people.

Bottom line for everyone in the UK though.... Get your act together, most of us wont get warnings. I seriously think alot of us here (me included) need to take a serious look at how we do things.

EDIT
The charge as it is read, reads like a single charge. However the law is messy in this, look at the attached file, while its aimed mainly at acids, it shows that the offenses he was charged with, can be charged each as a separate crime. That would of effectively been able to give him 6 years total, 2 for importing, two for possession and two for sale of them.

He was charged at a period when things were not as confused as they are currently. I have already been told the law is about to get alot tighter in the UK.

I am trying my best to get as much upto date information as I can for UK home chemists, but things change literally by the week. Not so much in the actual rules, but a great deal in the application of them. The so called great repeal Bill will make things alot worse in the UK.

this isnt a scaremonger thing, i have given reliable links in the legal section to this kind of info.

[Edited on 27-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

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