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Author: Subject: AN and Fuel Oils
AlbertV
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[*] posted on 6-12-2006 at 10:53
AN and Fuel Oils


I have searched this topic in two forums, but have not succeeded in finding any useful discussion about the generally available petrol types used with ANFO, type 1 and type 2.

While ANFO is quite the covered topic everywhere, my confusion arises from the actual chemical differences of petrol (diesel) type 1 and 2, and their ability to work as a useful fuel in an ANFO mixture.

As we know, type 1 (I believe) is the legal fuel for highway vehicles, and is a yellow/slight green color. Type 2 is reddish in color, and for non-highway vehicles.

I have heard it discussed by I believe one member who tried an ANFO charge using the type 1 yellow petrol, whom experienced a non-detonation.

Assuming sensitivity may not have been great with this mixture, I set out to try the mixture myself using a greater means of a booster charge in my experiment.

2kg AN/Petrol 1 (94:6) were mixed in a plastic bag and kneeded by hand for 15 minutes.

The AN was gas bag surplus and (although chunky I believe due to slight moisture) was mostly fine prill-type. It was able to be broken up fairly well to small particle sizes.

This bag was allowed to sit for nearly 2 hours before use.

The 2kg charge was placed in a 170mm diameter cylindrical hole almost 1 meter down, and packed tightly.

A 260g MEKPAN charge was then placed directly on top of the ANFO, and the hole was filled with sand and packed.

This to me was a fairly well means of confinment (being in clay ground), and the 260g MEKPAN seemed quite adequate to initiate such a charge.

Upon detonation, the crater left was almost definitely only due to the MEKPAN initiating, by comparison of a 400g crater right next to it.

Now if I may please ask the forum, can anyone possibly offer insight as to what the chemical differences are between the common petrol types which would make one less suitable as a sensitizing fuel in an ANFO mixture?
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enhzflep
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[*] posted on 6-12-2006 at 11:12


Can't tell you anything about type I and type II diesel. Can only guess.

But if my memory is serving me correctly, more than a teeny-weeny bit of water in the AN and it won't go. It's not unusual to bake the AN for a couple hours first to ensure its dryness.

I'd suppose that the red stuff that's no good for the highway is just the 'old dirty' kind with a fair bit of sulphur in it, so it's nice and cheap but rather filthy in the air. They still smelled about the same 20 years ago.

I've had less than 20gm charges of AN/Acetone and also AN+DoubleBase powder fire before. These were fired with about 1gm hmtd, about 3-4 feet underwater. In plastic HDPE film containers. The AN had just come straight from the oven before being mixed with the fuels and detonated perhaps 10-15 minutes after leaving the oven.

If practical, try smaller charges with very, very dry AN. You can fire as little as about 5cmx5cmx5cm unconfined with sufficient stimulus I believe. There's some ok stuff at Yarchive.net (I think that's the addr) if you've not seen it yet.
Doing a search for "Jerry (ico)" or "Arno Harmer" should get you there.
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AlbertV
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[*] posted on 6-12-2006 at 14:42


It sounds like I need to repeat the experiment, this time drying the AN first.

I cannot completely limit the type of fuel used out until I do this.

The reason I did not dry the AN, is because it came from a sealed bag and seemed fairly dry. There were very large "rocks" of AN that I separated out, which I thought was possibly where the moisture had been.

This seems to possibly change the real subject here to "the effects of moisture on AN mixtures", but my next experiment will only make this certain.

I'm curious about the mentioned AN+Acetone, but searching for these words or anything close proves to be rounding up far to many non-relavant topics. Is there any advantages whatsoever in such a mixture?
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[*] posted on 6-12-2006 at 15:01


The main difference between the two types of diesel is the tax paid on them.
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Ozone
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[*] posted on 6-12-2006 at 20:10


Hello,

Bert, I think, is correct. In the US, the dye used in the diesel is used to determine only how the material is taxed. The consumer fuel, green, is taxed without mercy, where the red is sold to farms and other subsidized ventures. Despite the trouble you can get into with taxes and Federal legislation, the two fuels should be equivalent.

Blasting grade "AN" is pretreated by scintering--it is made to contain many microscopic cracks and holes thereby increasing surface area *and* the overall amount of fuel that can permeate the intimate source of oxidation.

Do no harm,

O3




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enhzflep
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[*] posted on 7-12-2006 at 02:57


Quote:
Originally posted by AlbertV
I'm curious about the mentioned AN+Acetone, but searching for these words or anything close proves to be rounding up far to many non-relavant topics. Is there any advantages whatsoever in such a mixture?


Well, I'd read articles detailing the use of xylene and other similar solvents before. It's been quite a while and I forget the details. From my (very hazy) memory of the subject, these were easier to oxidise and initiate, than say for example Fuel oil would be.

That said, as far as I was concerned, the definite advantage was that I had a can of it sitting in the garage and the local service station is further away than my garage..

Also, it's a nice solvent for double-based shotgun powder. So I could do 2 pracs with very little in the way of effort, materials and cost.

As expected, the charge with the DB powder clearly supplied more energy. The flash underwater (in rather nasty water at that) was observed to be a rather bright _white_ flash somewhat akin to blasting gelatin while the flash from the acetone/AN charge was more of a sodium-yellow colour, most likely from the hmtd det, that still contained traces of bicarb. (Samples from the same batch of hmtd were used in both the dets)

This whole colour thing is somewhat of a mystery to me, it would need to have been very hot in there to mask the emmision of the sodium-yellow, but who cares?

Both tests were successfull and my hypothesis was correct.

Have a goole around for AN and xylene. It should provide a few interesting notes.

EDIT: Is putting the word "an" before a word that starts with a consonant considered a grammar or a spelling mistake??

[Edited on 7-12-2006 by enhzflep]
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quicksilver
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[*] posted on 7-12-2006 at 06:11


Where you would want to go to find the streight dope on this issue is jerry hurst's patent's and writings. He had done a great deal of work on the subject and was the single authority on ANFO-based blasting from a legal standpoint. he was a professional witness in some of the most important case-law issues of his day. Look for Gerald Hurst / alt.engr.explosives on usenet and do a patent search for HURST: ammonium nitrate.
You will wind up with more material than you could imagine. - enhzflep's notation on xylene is very relivent as is the "phasing" (see: baking the moisture out of the product, etc) of AN in anfo designs.
DuPont has done some basic work but they were usually just buyers of other's labours in blasting agents. Remember that blasting agents dropped the bottom out of the market from the big four during the early part of the last century. Blasting agents eventually changed the face of the industry to what it is today. ..So there is a lot of commercial BS.
In the Nov-Dec '06 issue of the Journal of Explo Engineering there are changes to the "Slurran" product* that is similar to the anfo phase controvercy (a bunch of BS actually - just a $ maker for SEC) They now sell KinePak - go figure.....:cool:
* SLURRAN 406/430 is a toe enhancer for anfo blasting - it's not anfo itself but they change it around in minute ways like anfo thinking that you can squeeze more life out of a idea if you dress it up.




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pyrotekniker
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[*] posted on 7-12-2006 at 06:36


I've done detonations of ANFO containing type 1 petroleum. It worked very well.
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AlbertV
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[*] posted on 7-12-2006 at 08:41


I do have a patent saved that gives a mixture using AN/xylol/NM for kinepack.

This patent doesn't go into VoD's, rather the cap sensitivity of these mixtures.

One advantage of the xylol in the mix (for me anyways) is that NM content goes down a bit, making for a cheaper mixture. But again, I do not know if it can compare to ANNM 60:40.

However, I don't believe in this patent that it mentions the use or sensitivity of a xylol or acetone solvent alone as a fuel in any of the tests.

I will surely research the given references on the subject, as I'm quite curious as to what may just be the most practical compromise between being a cost efficient and available fuel, and VoD.

Pyrotekniker, thanks for adding that statement as well, I can be fairly certain it was now the lack of drying which caused a non-detonation.

[Edited on 7-12-2006 by AlbertV]
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R2C4
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[*] posted on 7-12-2006 at 15:54


yaaa

gay_thread.gif - 238kB
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AlbertV
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[*] posted on 7-12-2006 at 16:53


^ I see you have contributed a bit yourself around here.
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[*] posted on 7-12-2006 at 20:57


Ok, this is too much of practical applications than is normally tolerated. There is nothing novel or special about ANFO.

Detritus




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