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Sauron
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Can you get ethyl acetate?
If so it is easy to saponify it w/NaOH to ethanol + sodium acetate.
I would not drink such ethanol but, you weren't going to do that anyway.
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vulture
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Which is also an expensive method.
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I would not drink such ethanol but, you weren't going to do that anyway. |
Why not? After distillation? Sodium acetate isn't that harmful either.
@ post below: Since when does lye get into the receiving flask?
[Edited on 21-4-2007 by vulture]
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Sauron
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Lye is.
Anyway most EtOAc is made from ethanol produced synthetically and by international agreement su ethanol is never put into beverage channels.
Only fermented ethanol is deemed suitable for beverage purposes, and that includes really crappy but still fermented alcohol used in vast qty to make
wine vinegar. Pharm grade ethanol, likewise.
Now you and I know that we could rigorously purify ethanol to remove impuries but at what cost and, the result would be nothing but vodka, neutral
spirits.
However for producing ethanol for solvent purposes (non potable) splitting EtOAc is a perfectly sound proposition. At least in a country where ethanol
is verboten like @hector's.
Incidentally the Koranic prohibition against alcohol applies to the product of fermentation of wheat, and grape.
Apparently the Prophet was unaware of fermentation of honey (to mead). I am not a Koranic scholar but sounds like a loophole to me.
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vulture
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Is the sale of denatured (made unfit for drinking) alcohol also prohibited in Iran? The only cheaper method than fermentation is the industrial
process that starts with ethylene, but I doubt that is feasible on a lab scale.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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guy
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How is fermentation expensive? Sugar and yeast??
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Sauron
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Fer,emtation is finicky, messy, low yielding, and prone to microbial competition. Distillation (which needs to be done in at least 2-3 stages) is slow
and wasteful of energy.
On the other hand we have been doing this for 5000 years
And it is the only way to get alcohol you can drink.
Don't even think about drinking alcohol made any other way.
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not_important
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Fer,emtation is finicky, messy, low yielding, and prone to microbial competition. Distillation (which needs to be done in at least 2-3 stages) is slow
and wasteful of energy.
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The industrial guys have worked with fermentation long enough that they don't have too much trouble with the microbes, an experienced home brewer
usually does OK - but note the 'experienced' word there. At least it's easy to bury your failures.
If you can get the membranes pervapouration is helpful for the concentration process and seems to be able to replace the first two distillations.
However the membranes aren't exactly OTC.
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DeAdFX
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Can you get ethyl acetate?
If so it is easy to saponify it w/NaOH to ethanol + sodium acetate.
I would not drink such ethanol but, you weren't going to do that anyway. |
Hmm if hector goes about this way then he can use the sodium acetate to make his acetic anhydride... Otherwise this process is sort of wasteful...
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Sauron
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Thanks for stating the obvious but @hector as usual can think of a million reasons why not to do it.
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Rosco Bodine
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If you can get some methanol denatured ethanol ,
you might possibly be able to chemically strip the methanol from it by formation of the nitrite ester ,
which should easily boil away from the ethanol ,
leaving relatively pure ethanol .
So .....you don't see too many beer commercials on TV ?
Here's one for you 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9oYYoQlIdE&mode=related&...
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Sauron
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@hector, I could be wrong but I think you may have to dliver the alkili (NaOH) in water, so resulting NaOAc will not be anhydrous.
Does anyone think solid NaOH or KOH will saponify EtOAc?
If it will then maybe you will get NaOAC dry or maybe NaOAc-2EtOH (alcohol of hydration) and you will need to recover that ethanol to improve your
yield and dry the acetate.
If such NaOAc-2EtOH forms then at least you can expect it to give up the ethanol at a lower temperature than NaOAc-2H2O gives up water - right?
Ethanol boils at 78 C. 22 C lower than water.
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Lye is. |
Nonsence, NaOH will not come over with the distillate...
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Sauron
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The point, @sandmeyer, was that the ethanol recovered from EtOAc is of unknown origin, most likely from petrochemical processes, and not suitable BY
DEFINITION for human consumption.
Of course the technical means exist to purify it to a level cleaner than the limits for potable ethanol, However @hector does not have those abilities
nor the ability to obtain the analytical profile of the product.
Traces of diethyl sulfate or ethyl hydrogen sulfate, brain carcinogens, night be present just as an example. Those are intermediates in the industrial
ethanol process.
So saponification of ethyl acetate is a good way to recover ethanol for solvent use but NEVER to be used as a beverage.
To say otherwise would be highly irresponsible.
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Rosco Bodine
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Not to seem argumentative , but is real *bread* also prohibited by the "Prophet" ? I must ask this ,
since by what method then do the bakers make bread ,
using only "baking powder" to produce an inferior bread ?
Did the "prophet" also invent baking powder and crappy tasting pastries ?
And if muslims do bake real bread , then by what method do they culture the yeast ? Did the "prophet" genetically
engineer a special yeast to replace the natural yeast
which has an unislamic metabolism that always defiles
the bread with evil ethanol ?
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Sauron
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@Roscoe, you want to go there, pls do so in Whimsy. If you do so I will happily delete my own remarks; I do not dawdle in Whimsy.
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Nicodem
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Rosco, your question is unfortunately terribly americanocentric (sorry, I could not find a better phrase, but imagine a phrase for ignorance
originating from never being abroad). For your information in Iran they do not use yeast in the production of bread since they do not eat the same
kind of bread as we do in Europe or as you do in USA. I will not go into the details, but imagine the tortillas in Mexico or more like Indian
chapatti.
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garage chemist
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I dont think the NaOAc from ethyl acetate splitting will be anhydrous, and I dont think that solid NaOH will do the job either (low solubility).
You always have to melt anhydrous NaOAc before use anyway, thats a fact, due to its hygroscopicity.
I also think that petrochemical ethanol can be well suitable for consumption if purity is ensured. After all, a whole lot of things suitable for
consumption are made petrochemically, think of adipic acid from cyclohexanone, which ultimately comes from benzene, or aspirin, which also is made
exclusively from benzene.
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Sauron
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Unleavened bread.
Like religious Jews eat at Passover.
Nice fresh chapatti is really quite nice.
Tortillas of course are made of corn meal not flour at all.
But similar.
Anyway @Roscoe there are many Moslems who are members of this forum. I am not one of them but I think this is not the place to stir up religious ill
will - whether or not that was your intention, I don' know.
As a fellow American I understood the contetx of the satirical video snippet you posted yestersday which vulture took objection to. BUT THIS IS A
CHEMISTRY FORUM. What's next? You going to post some of the infamous cartoons that got a number of people killed? Or some of the more controversial
episodes of South Park? Frankly I don't personally care if you want to poke fun at Muslims, Christians, Scientologists, Anabaptists, Zoroastrians,
Moonies or the Dalai Lama. This is simply not the place to do it. Moslem members of the forum are not our enemies. Jihadis are our enemies. No matter
what OBL says this is not a western crusade against Islam, that's his hogwash to gull his own people.
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Rosco Bodine
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I once worked in a large bakery and was a member of the bakers union .
If you want to call bread made without yeast "bread"
instead of " dog biscuits " or hardtack , that is reaching 
Nature makes ethanol in every waste bin and kitchen
on the planet as a natural biological process ,
and yet here we discuss oblique and inferior synthetic methods for producing ethanol , to indulge the cultural taboo of a member who resides in a
state that is worried
about " spiritual defilement " by vapors from rising bread
and a million other natural sources , while at the same time engaged in the hypocrisy of claiming technological enlightenment and maturity for
developing nuclear power .
First learn to bake a decent loaf of bread , nuclear technology will come later .
I refuse to be scolded by PC'ers who will indulge this
sort of lunacy . I am about plain truth here , and political correctness and cultural sensitivity can be damned ,
when those things come into conflict with what is truth .
http://homedistiller.org/
Caution ! Here is forbidden knowledge ! The link may be blocked by the nanny state headquartered and head covered in Tehran . It is raining knowledge
on the
information superhighway , be careful here , you might get your heads wet !
If the grand ayatollah allows a file download from this site I can attach the file for the whole website here as it is only about 8 MiB as a zip file
.
@Sauron .......if this forum becomes lorded over and censored by the PC'ers and everything said must be
" culturally neutral " to satisfy the demands of those who no longer love freedom enough to defend it or truth
either , then I will quite voluntarily never post nor login
here again . I will defer any quest for and /or sharing of knowledge to all those here who are not so inclined as
myself to simply speak their mind . If I have to fear censorship , I will remain silent instead of speaking at all .
[Edited on 22-4-2007 by Rosco Bodine]
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Sauron
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So rarely am I EVER accused of being PC that it is amusing when it happens.
How about simple courtesy then? Courtesy to a fellow forum member who has done you no offense, You don't like his leasers? Neither do I and for all we
know maybe neither does he. Is that any reason to regale him about things he has nothing to do with and cannot influence?
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Rosco Bodine
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@hector2000
I don't like overlords period , be they islamic or unislamic . I am a free spirit and a believer in personal freedoms and
towards all to live and let live , and impose nothing harshly restrictive . I am a libertarian , not an anarchist , but nearer to that than any
fascist .
I sincerely meant no personal offense to you .
All of this is quite unbelievable to me , dress codes ,
dry counties , blocked You Tube and no real bread .....
unbelievable that any people would tolerate this
kind of oppressive authority . Most revolutions would be to throw off this sort of authority , never to embrace it .
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Sauron
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Dry counties or dry countries?
Being from the American South I can assure you that we have more than our fair share of dry counties there in the Bible Belt amd blue laws to go with
them and not an ayatollah anywhere to be seen.
Why not let your libertarianism begin closer to home? Go punch out Jerry Falwell or something. You're in DC area and Lynchburg VA isn't that far away.
Iran is a far piece.
Nice of you to give Hector Tony's URL. Tony is a pal of mine.
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Rosco Bodine
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Dry counties or dry countries?
Being from the American South I can assure you that we have more than our fair share of dry counties there in the Bible Belt amd blue laws to go with
them and not an ayatollah anywhere to be seen.
Why not let your libertarianism begin closer to home? Go punch out Jerry Falwell or something. You're in DC area and Lynchburg VA isn't that far away.
Iran is a far piece.
Nice of you to give Hector Tony's URL. Tony is a pal of mine. |
Yeah but can hector even connect to the URL ?
Strange isn't it that some countries required their own
"customized" versions of Windows to facilitate government censorship and tracking , sort of gives
" malware " a whole new meaning . The Chinese have their own variety of Windows , and probably slightly modified is what they have in Iran . A
clean copy
of unabridged Windows and a satellite link with a phony or proxied / hijacked IP range that fits a free world IP number range would bypass all the
censorship . Right ?
Falwell is a fruitcake heavy on the nuts .
No comparison between the " bible belt " and an islamic state .
Sunday Blue laws and dry counties were pretty much gone fifty years ago . Dry counties generally have
populations of about eleven people and twenty thousand cows .
[Edited on 22-4-2007 by Rosco Bodine]
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Sauron
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Mever been to Utah, huh?
And Texas is mostly package liquor only, sale of mixed drinks in restaurants prohibited so you bring your own bottle and purchase setups right?
There were still dry counties in southern Missippi like Tangipahoe proximate to New Orleans that still prohibited beer sales on Sunday, 25 years ago
and maybe still today. I had to investigate this personally for a law firm whose client was being harassed by the county sherrif. So I suspect you are
understating the persistance of blue laws and dry counties. Texas is arguably the south, Utah is not but inarguably dry from border to border.
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Rosco Bodine
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Gee , lemme think a minute . Is there anywhere you can't buy a loaf of real bread , or a gallon of denatured alcohol
that is 95% ethanol which can be cleaned up if you know how ?
Hmmmm . I think even in Utah or Mississippi , even on Sunday a person could probably manage that at any
WalMart and/or Home Depot .
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