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Sauron
International Hazard
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I suspect that harly anyone from Morocco to Irian Jaya is slavering for "real" bread, @Roscoe -- you are simply projecting your values on half of the
world that isn't vaguely interested.
And in Buddhist Thailand where "real" bread is commonplace, the common denatured alcohol is 80% ethanol and 20% methanol, MEK, etc and is known as
Special Solvent 80/20. To be sure I can buy Merck 95% and anhydrous AR grades but at higher price. The government alcohol monopoly does not produce
it.
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Rosco Bodine
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This whole thread seems about like somebody saying
in their country that drinking water is forbidden .
So instead of people telling the person how to make
a rain barrel or dig a well , or drain the tank on an air compressor ,
we are talking about the best design for a condensing furnace , since the only "righteous" precursors are air
and petroleum .
And if the end product is itself forbidden , then isn't
it semantics what is the nature of the precursors ?
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Did you miss the memo, Rosco? I don't want to see another word about religion or politics in this thread.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Eclectic
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It shouldn't be that difficult to get 95+% ethanol from industrial ethanol with a fractionating column. Acidified clay or zeolite should remove any
basic denaturant. As long as you don't want to drink it what's the problem? Straight E-85 fuel should work just fine for esterifications.
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Sauron
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@Hector, there is nothing to excuse. Your English is okay.
The English think Americans can't speak English and both groups know the Australians certainly can't. So don' feel so lonesome.
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Rosco Bodine
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@polverone
There is no malice or rudeness or argument intended here , if I may answer this post . If not , then another layer
of filtering will scarcely be noticeable to the member from Iran , so edit/censor as you see fit.
DONE. You may intend to cause no trouble, but this thread of conversation has proved to be a reliable firestarter. --Polverone
[Edited on 4-23-2007 by Polverone]
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Eclectic
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Cough, cough, back to chemistry?
CaCl2 should have a higher affinity for water and methanol than for ethanol. That might be useful for reducing methanol concentration in a mixed
methanol/ethanol industrial solvent after fractionation. A follow up distillation would be needed to remove the dissolved CaCl2.
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Nicodem
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Please leave moderation to the moderators. In-thread rebuttals just further derail the topic. --Polverone
[Edited on 4-23-2007 by Polverone]
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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garage chemist
chemical wizard
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I, from germany, would not be able to order directly from Schott either- they only do large orders and to commercial customers, not to individuals.
This has NOTHING to do with any laws (there are no glassware laws in germany).
It seems things are different for Iran, but you should try to order from a supplier that deals with individuals, not from a large company.
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Nicodem
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Eclectic, the amount of CaCl2 required to absorb MeOH from a 30-40% MeOH in EtOH is enourmous. Just do a calculation and you will see that it makes no
sense. Besides, MeOH and EtOH can easily be separated with a long enough distillation column.
[Edited on 4-23-2007 by Polverone]
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Eclectic
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Yes, that is why I suggested fractionation, followed by CaCl2 and redistillation to remove residual MeOH. 3A sieves will remove H2O.
Anyone know if 4A will separate MeOH and EtOH?
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Rosco Bodine
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Perhaps depolymerization of polyethylene and hydrogenation
would be the technically preferable synthetic route ,
as opposed to fermentation
[Edited on 4-23-2007 by Polverone]
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vulture
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FINAL WARNING: Can we give politics a rest?
By your insane blabber about politics you are just polluting the thread and making it more difficult for hector2000. Ironically, you are also hurting
your own "cause" that way.
I will mercilessly censor otherwise. If you think this forum, or anything for that matter, is a democracy, you're a naive fool.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Too late, vulture -- I already cut out all the ideological or political bits that followed my warning. People have discovered the legal limitations
that hector2000 faces. Those limitations are probably not open to negotiation, and certainly not by people posting in this thread. If your post does
not address the technical problem at hand, this is probably not the place for it.
[Edited on 4-23-2007 by Polverone]
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Rosco Bodine
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Yes . But you would likely not want to order a specialty
cultured high yield brewers yeast given your situation .
Perhaps a bakers yeast would be easier to find , or with some work you can culture and isolate your own yeast strain . Consult Sauron on this or a
book on mycology
for culturing fungi from spores . Even a letter sent to you
from abroad by a friend in hawaii can be dusted with yeast spores , which you may then culture in mass quantity starting from a microscopic trace of
dust on the letter pages . In fact mushroom growers exchange
" spore prints " on a piece of filter paper for the cultivation of mushrooms , and dry yeast would certainly be capable of being sent by mail the same
way . To culture the spores , a tiny piece of filter paper is cut away and dropped into a sterile culture medium to incubate and multiply . In a few
weeks a microgram of spores becomes a ton of yeast organisms under the optimum conditions .
Yeast is an indigenous environmental organism found
naturally on grain in the field , and spores remain on
the hulls of grain crops . Natural fermentation of some
grains and straw and stalks is what makes fodder and
silage feeds in the storage silos for animal feed . You may smell the ethanol from some of these feed bins . The cows are never late to dinner
because they like the stuff 
Any ground grain which has not been sterilized , will probably ferment all by itself when
given time enough and the right conditions , a bit of dough should rise on its own , indicating the growth of yeast is occuring spontaneously . A bit
of animal feed grain would be well contaminated with yeast spores ,
even if bagged flours or grains for human consumption
have been sterilized in some way . An open window
will probably supply airborne yeast spores if all else fails
as a source for collecting spores . The problem is that
you will have to isolate a clean strain , or relatively
clean strain , free from competing molds and bacteria ,
but it can be done by following standard methods and
reasonably clean if not perfectly sterile technique .
I just thought of something else that may help . Certain fruit trees , particularly figs IIRC are notorious for natural fermentation . I have seen
birds that have been eating over ripe figs walking around on the ground because they are too drunk to fly , from eating fermented figs . That could
be an alternate source of a decent yeast strain .
[Edited on 24-4-2007 by Rosco Bodine]
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Sauron
International Hazard
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Getting ethanol yields that high is subject of research.
12-16% is more typical, 20% possible with very close temperature control (cooling). Consistent cooling with precise control of large volumes of
fermenting wash is tricky, therefore costly. So you might be better off sticking to more conventional yeats that do not require such specialized
control of temperature.
Stripping the ethanol from 15% solution is easy, does not require fractionation, and you end up with c.40-60% crude ethanol in one go.
You then fractionate this to 95% which is as high as you can get by distillation.
Do you need anhydrous ethanol solvent or is 95% sufficient?
Ethanol for drinking requires further purification, which is done by diluting the 95% to 50% then passing the 50% slowly through columns of particular
kinds of granular activated carbon. The alcohol that comes out os neutral spirits (100 proof vodka).
But that is only necessary if the alcohol is intended for human consumption.
The place to get special premixes of high grade alcohol making yeast with nutrients is Gert a friend of mine in Malmo Sweden.
http://www.partyman.se
He can supply these unlabeled or labeled as baking yeast to make importation more easy.
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Sauron
International Hazard
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Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
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The preparation of the wash (mash) is different. The highest yielding starches are cassava, tapioca, rice, etc. Sugar beets also are a popular
feedstock. In Thailand the first three listed are most ptominent.
The link I gave you discusses fermenting from starches as well as from sugars. With starches you need to cook the starches to break down those into
sugars, usually with help of enzymes.
Sugar cane and moasses are another option, the Brazilians are the experts at making fuel ethanol this way, and potable ethanol from this source is
rum.
Corn is another popular feedstock. So the best choice for you depends of what you have available for low cost in your country.
Fermentation is used to produce a lot of things other than ethanol. So do a little study and see what you can claim to be importing the yeast to make
like acetone, isopropoanol, butanol etc. Just do not get caught! They may not believe you were not making for drinking.
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