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Author: Subject: Most potent smokescreen chemical?
coppercone
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[*] posted on 21-6-2018 at 08:52
Most potent smokescreen chemical?


What kinds of things are used in atmospheric sounding rockets and stuff? I know the military likes to use red and white phosphorus for screening, and that the HVAC industry is fond of using warm ticl4 in vent testing, but what else is there?
Both those options are kind of nasty too, i guess a rocket injecting ticl4 into its exhaust to make a trail is ok..

Not sure how you would deploy phosphorus linearly though or if its even a good smoke screen rather then just being easy to weaponize (i.e. good smoke density etc)

[Edited on 21-6-2018 by coppercone]
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[*] posted on 21-6-2018 at 16:18


Solvent dyes, potassium chlorate, sugar, and if I remember right, some magnesium carbonate to cool the reaction mix to keep the dye from decomposing. There might be a couple other little additions but those are what I remember.
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[*] posted on 21-6-2018 at 16:30


I talked to a guy who's job in the military was just managing smoke screens. They design their smoke to drift at different rates, block different sensors, stay at different elevations.

I would recommend sugar and potassium chlorate.




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[*] posted on 21-6-2018 at 18:15


Apparently a smoke composition that has some use is hexachloroethane (HCE), aluminium and zinc oxide. The smoke screen effect comes from the hygroscopic nature of anhydrous ZnCl2, in the same way that P2O5 helps build a good smoke screen.

https://www.nap.edu/read/5582/chapter/7

Still nasty though, but at least chemically interesting, not often that organic synthesis finds a role in pyrotechnics
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[*] posted on 21-6-2018 at 19:39


I think I have made some kind of composition using parlon (maybe), zinc oxide and aluminum to make smoke. I got scared because I read that the HCE smoke can produce phosgene and other nasties, I think that the ones that use chloroorganics have a bad reputation. I don't remember what happened because it must have been over a decade and a half ago.

The most impressive I seen personally is aluminum chloride or titanium chloride smoke but I wonder if you can do better. I found they produce alot more smoke then sugar based stuff. The chlorine smokes also tend to hug the ground more then the super hot smokes produced by nitrates etc. The wax/nitrate/combustible one where you just boil the wax is decent but still does not really compare to hot AlCl3 or TiCl4 being dispersed. It does smell completely delicious though, compared to caustic shit.

[Edited on 22-6-2018 by coppercone]

[Edited on 22-6-2018 by coppercone]
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[*] posted on 21-6-2018 at 19:49


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_EdgP57l1Q
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[*] posted on 21-6-2018 at 19:56


The highest VISUAL obscurement per weight of smoke product deployed comes from the smokes that pull water vapor out of the AIR and create a fog of tiny droplets. These are not entirely dependant for effect on the weight/volume of the smoke composition, as are such smoke producers as the dye/pyrotechnic heating to vaporize mixture family of smokes. Kind of analogous to a pyrotechnic mixture with an oxidizer vs. a flammable substance which uses air to burn (like thermobarics. Or gasoline)- You get a lot more punch per weight out of the one that doesn't need to bring everything to the party within itself, but grabs some constituents out of the atmosphere.

Obviously, these same chemicals can also pull water out of your mucous membranes- and that will be quite unpleasant.




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[*] posted on 21-6-2018 at 22:44


A very good smoke producer is SO3. This matches well with Bert's remarks above. Even a single drop of 65% oleum can cause an increadible amount of smoke. Never seen any other compound which produces so much ultrafine smoke from a small amount. The smoke is very bad though, it is a very fine mist of H2SO4.



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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 02:36


Wikipedia mentions that SnCl4 SiCl4 and TiCl4 were used in WWI as a smoke screen.
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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 03:04


If I ever decide to make any smokescreen in a large scale, when i start planned actions, that will be H2O. I've seen natural fog prevents me from seeing ~ 5 meters anything in front of me. It's non-toxic, cheap, available, legal... If right proportion of electric current and water is used in some device, it can be instant fog maker. There are actually currently advertisements all over tv about instant hot water, instead of boilers. They all talk how boilers are bad, stupid, inefficient, slow, huge loss. Best to use for evading/avoiding, running away, concealing... I mean if i wanted to run away from police, i would not let them chase me, but put much fog on their car, something like that... I like natural fog because it increases privacy of property and no reason to be scared of somebody holding sniper and watching me from hills 24 hours per day.
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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 05:35


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  

Obviously, these same chemicals can also pull water out of your mucous membranes- and that will be quite unpleasant.


Those smokes are also very likely to be effective in the IR range from what I've read here and there (Conklin I think on HCE smokes).
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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 08:24


Dr evidence are you from the ukrainian warfront or what? Why are you worried about snipers targetting you? Man you need to move to a better area that kind of thinking is not good for you at all

Also is white phosphorus soluble in SO3 or any of the liquid metal chlorides?

I wanted smoke for rocket exhaust btw . like for determining stratification of air currents

[Edited on 22-6-2018 by coppercone]

[Edited on 22-6-2018 by coppercone]
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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 08:34


I know very little about smoke bombs, but Wikipedia says that zinc chloride makes an effective smoke screen. Aluminum seems to produce a lot of smoke when it burns.




I'm no longer involved in this forum.
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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 09:11


Try adding easily prepared NH4Cl to your fuel source.

One home prep for NH4Cl, first make (NH4)2SO4 from say 5% ammonia water and Epsom Salt (a MgSO4 hydrate).
Filter out the Mg(OH)2 or just last stand for several days. Next, add NaCl and freeze out the Na2SO4 hydrate.

Reactions:

2 NH3 + MgSO4.7H2O + n H2O --> Mg(OH)2 (s) + (NH4)2SO4 + (n-7) H2O

(NH4)2SO4 + 2 NaCl + n H2O --Freeze--> Na2SO4.10H2O (s) + 2 NH4Cl + (n-10) H2O


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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 11:23


Quote: Originally posted by coppercone  
Dr evidence are you from the ukrainian warfront or what? Why are you worried about snipers targetting you? Man you need to move to a better area that kind of thinking is not good for you at all

I wanted smoke for rocket exhaust btw . like for determining stratification of air currents


No, i am talking about random individuals (criminals or psychos). For example few years ago somebody was shooting me 20 bullets with sniper from hill in front of me. How do i know it's sniper? First it is far enough, second i could not see who it was (have not noticed even a dot on that hill). I only heared bullets stopping close to me. And i think i was on somebody elses or public property, but i am sure it was not property owner (his property extends behind me, not in front of me), but somebody who noticed my weakness or insecurity or who know what. Like they are reading my mind and whole life.

I mean i noticed whenever somebody attacks me in any way, they are 100% sure i don't have weapon or anything to defend myself in any way. They are extremely sure. The only logic that makes sense is that they've been following me for long time before that.

Then one guy 5 years younger than me was shot and killed few months ago in close area. Then burglars entered my home and demanded weapons, money, gold. They first observed us for 1 year to lear of our habits.

Also I noticed that at exact moment that i get most worried about those snipers from hills, i receive thunderbolt sensation in brain (or stuck knife or needle sensation) that lasts for 500 ms max. After investigating this on google, concluded it is common symptom of anxiety and similar disorders. Psychiatrists and various doctors confirmed my diagnosis. They tested all my chemistry and organs, and could not find anything. Most of them say and complain actually that they have it too, and much worse sensations/symptoms. Actually all those online anxiety cures like linden method or mc2 method talk about such symptoms. All of them say "you're not gonna die". Also I get headache and toothache with people, and as soon as they dissappear, so do all those pains. According to spiritual teacher Eckhart Tolle this is all caused by some mental processes (thoughts) where emotions become so real that they become physical, and turn into pain etc. Something related to rejection of everything...

And that is entirely different, then if you wanna use smoke close to people of course. Then you have a huge choice.
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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 11:40


Quote: Originally posted by coppercone  


Also is white phosphorus soluble in SO3 or any of the liquid metal chlorides?

[Edited on 22-6-2018 by coppercone]


Ok, with questions like that I'll assume that you're not likely to do anything else more complex than a black powder rocket.

Stick to crayons.

Seriously. Wax and color in the same package. Grind to fine dust, mix with black powder, adjust % to reach acceptable burnrate and smoke.

Smoke, without getting dissolved to a puddle.

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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 12:37


Quote: Originally posted by coppercone  
I wanted smoke for rocket exhaust btw . like for determining stratification of air currents


Are you making your own rocket fuels?

Ammonium perchlorate leaves HCl as a gas in the rocket exhaust. On a humid day, this appears as white smoke. Several of the above mentioned military smokes ALSO release HCl, which augments with water droplets any white solids they may emit as well, such as Zinc oxide.

Aluminum in rocket fuel leaves Aluminum oxide in the exhaust. Quite visibly, see video of a space shuttle launch for both ammonium perchlorate and Al fuel produced rocket exhaust smoke, plus water vapor from the liquid fuel shuttle engines, once at an altitude cold enough to condense.

Some have added powdered gilsonite (Carbon rich natural mineral, like hard tar) or even powdered rubber to composite rocket fuels for a black smoke trail, similar to the smoke from TNT or other Oxygen deficient explosives which release clouds of fine soot.




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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 17:27


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Quote: Originally posted by coppercone  


Also is white phosphorus soluble in SO3 or any of the liquid metal chlorides?

[Edited on 22-6-2018 by coppercone]


Ok, with questions like that I'll assume that you're not likely to do anything else more complex than a black powder rocket.

Stick to crayons.

Seriously. Wax and color in the same package. Grind to fine dust, mix with black powder, adjust % to reach acceptable burnrate and smoke.

Smoke, without getting dissolved to a puddle.


I have the tools, knowledge of electronics and cryohydraulics to make a liquid fueled rocket if I want, what kind of thought process do you have if you think well established engineering guidelines for aerodynamical/mechanical design and well established guidelines for use in propellants and rocket control electronics have to do with solubility laws? Perhaps you can make some kind of suspension if cold, etc

The idea is to direct a spray injector with whatever in it into a rocket exhaust.

You need basically no knowledge of chemistry to make a complex rocket unless you want to experiment with different seldom used propellants and stuff, and that still comes down to basically being an issue of thermodynamic design. The practice is over 100 years old and unless you are trying to push some kind of performance metric you can basically follow a rule book to make some thing decent. You need to know reaction rate and heat output to correctly design your nozzle and control flow rates and dispersion patterns and make sure it does not melt, but this would largely be a experimental process for a amature involving something like a force tester or even rocket sled, and I do not intend to do any experimenting with unpopular or experimental propellant mixtures.

You probably wont get anything more then very rough ball park numbers using any kind of calculable knowledge with the reaction front speed or internal pressures generated.

How about some respect? You are pretty rude. You can literarly get books on oxy/hydrogen rockets that leave your perceived need for complex chemistry knowledge in the dust because they will have simple differential equations you can use for your propellant designs.

Same for solid fuel rockets, NASA did a good job figuring out how to do it over the last 70 years with total spending in the trillions....
not to mention the military and general aviation

You do know there is a major field called 'aerospace engineering' right?:mad:

i think maybe you wanna take that crayon out of your brain

[Edited on 23-6-2018 by coppercone]
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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 18:01


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
Quote: Originally posted by coppercone  
I wanted smoke for rocket exhaust btw . like for determining stratification of air currents


Are you making your own rocket fuels?

Ammonium perchlorate leaves HCl as a gas in the rocket exhaust. On a humid day, this appears as white smoke. Several of the above mentioned military smokes ALSO release HCl, which augments with water droplets any white solids they may emit as well, such as Zinc oxide.

Aluminum in rocket fuel leaves Aluminum oxide in the exhaust. Quite visibly, see video of a space shuttle launch for both ammonium perchlorate and Al fuel produced rocket exhaust smoke, plus water vapor from the liquid fuel shuttle engines, once at an altitude cold enough to condense.

Some have added powdered gilsonite (Carbon rich natural mineral, like hard tar) or even powdered rubber to composite rocket fuels for a black smoke trail, similar to the smoke from TNT or other Oxygen deficient explosives which release clouds of fine soot.


I am scared of making my own fuel mixture because it might be unstable or have some kind of parameters that cause issues. That would take something I have a firm idea will work into the experimental region that I don't want to deal with. If you use a fuel that is popular like perchlorate or liquid oxygen based fuels that tons of people used, you can be fairly confident it will not explode or do something funky like be unstable with time, require special design procedures, become corrosive, etc.

I think it would be safer to design a injection system into the exhaust.

I feel that something like a rocket fuel is complicated enough that you basically need alot of people to test it alot and mess with it in various ways to determine if its reliable and safe. What if small cracks deemed harmless in regular established fuel mixtures cause this reformulated fuel to detonate?

I fell that it is the number one thing that can go wrong with a rocket other then poor workmanship like welding/bonding... control electronics are fairly reliable compared to the pyrotechnics since you can test them a bunch, the pyrotechnics you can only test once, and you need to make big batches to do all your required tests with something new. Of course you can have a bond wire in a transistor break from the factory or something, but the reliability of their manufactured designs is extremely high, and you can design in redundant systems and harden your nerve center.

In this case it would just be required to MAYBE steer it slightly to ensure it goes strait up, its not like you need a high performance complicated radar or infrared tracking system on it.. and in most cases you won't even need electronics rather then maybe a altimeter and radar beacon especially if you go solid fuel, with liquid fuel you would need some kind of basic control system. A simple timer might work well enough for dispensing smoke. A pyrotechnically actuated CO2 or nitrogen cylinder can pressurize your storage tank for the smoke chemical and open a pressure valve to dispense it in a controlled manner. You would design it to restrict the peak pressure as not to perturb the rocket.

Routing plumbing to the back of the rocket to utilize the engine heat to vaporize it would unbalance it some, depending on its total size.. but if you use something like 1/8th inch stainless tube it wont be much, and you can design in unused proxy tubes to balance it out mechanically. Steered fins would add requirements for drive hydraulics. I am imagining a cage of stainless tubes built into the body of the rocket, which could be from carbon fiber for ease of manufacture, so you don't need to bond steel to aluminum (hate this shit, supposedly high silver braze works but still), guess copper could work since it only needs to work once?

I don't think I would design it for reuse since the parachute system is complicated and you basically want something with potentially hazardous chemicals on board to defiantly work, no room for any cost saving gimics.. plus the airframe is stressed after launch so you want peak performance.... no one at home can do grain structure inspections and shit to make sure mechanical parts like fins did not get over stressed. Leave that to people who like to play that game and develop their own confidence intervals and shit, also better if something like that gets destroyed on impact so if it flies off some idiot does not find it later and take it home to have it leak etc

[Edited on 23-6-2018 by coppercone]
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[*] posted on 22-6-2018 at 19:59


You're erudite.

You have been exposed to a lot of the concepts related to rocketry, engine and propellant design. But you have not actually worked in the field. Or you are deliberately playing dumb. All the claimed knowledge of cryo fueled devices, mastery of sophisticated design tools, so sure of the triviality of using established technologies- Oh my God. I DO this kind of stuff, and the simplest idea may be a nightmare to devise effective, reliable implementations for without a trained, experienced person as a mentor.

You do ask interesting questions. That, so far, is all you do.

Then you find reasons why the answers aren't sufficient. Almost as if your motive is to keep your thread going, not accept a workable jumping off point for an actual implementation, experiment, finalize a plan- And DO SOMETHING.

You don't have any work to report.

This is all so familiar.

I think I'm done here. The real world has stuff I need to do.




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3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

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[*] posted on 23-6-2018 at 03:36


Do not make sensitive mixtures with KClO3 for safety reasons!!!

However, I did employ by accident an excess of Mg(ClO3)2 in a route to an energetic compound only to have a damp product that was only good at making a lot of smoke!

So just substitute in whole or part, the hygroscopic magnesium chlorate (Mg(ClO3).nH2O where n=2, 4 or 6, see https://books.google.com/books?id=AnnVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA349&... ) for KClO3 and get a safer and better smoke producer.

Note, mixing 2 KClO3 + MgSO4 (aq) followed by freezing out the K2SO4 hydrate yields magnesium chlorate per my experience. Or, without cooling, try using magnesium tartate with KClO3 per a related reaction in Mellor, page 344.
-----------------------------------------

Per the Mellor reference, I would recommend the compound Zn(NH3)3(ClO3)2.H2O as a likely candidate to produce white smoke given the decomposition into ZnO,....

[Edited on 23-6-2018 by AJKOER]
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[*] posted on 23-6-2018 at 05:12


Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
Do not make sensitive mixtures with KClO3 for safety reasons!!!


I've heard somewhere that wet mixtures are not nearly as dangerous or unstable as dry ones. Also I would not keep anything mixed ever, it's easy to mix when needed to use. Same is true for batteries (cells). When I start making my batteries I will never keep electrodes and electrolyte mixed, except when in use. Actually even electrolyte alone can be considered dangerous, for example it's better to keep Nitrogen and Oxygen in air than to keep Nitric Acid, although that sound too extreme or perfect. But trust me, it's better to have some device that can work constantly to produce anything, than to keep large amounts of acids, oxidants, whatever. I would talk now about some more life ideology but that would turn into another topic (electrochemistry).

[Edited on 23-6-2018 by DrEvidence]
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[*] posted on 23-6-2018 at 05:24


Quote: Originally posted by coppercone  
Dr evidence are you from the ukrainian warfront or what? Why are you worried about snipers targetting you? Man you need to move to a better area that kind of thinking is not good for you at all

Also is white phosphorus soluble in SO3 or any of the liquid metal chlorides?

I wanted smoke for rocket exhaust btw . like for determining stratification of air currents

[Edited on 22-6-2018 by coppercone]

[Edited on 22-6-2018 by coppercone]


They are a troll who came back despite promising never to return, all the pseudoscience garbage they post gives it away.
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[*] posted on 23-6-2018 at 06:14


Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
They are a troll who came back despite promising never to return, all the pseudoscience garbage they post gives it away.


I never used word "promise" in my life. It is only your interpetation of my words in your brain. Your perception. You see, it's relative only, even if i promised. I noticed almost all or all things in this life are relative. For example when somebody says that some girl is enjoyment or beautiful or good, they can't be so sure. Although word enjoyment is more absolute one. She can be enjoyment partially or for specific people or specific time...unfortunately most girls today try to be enjoyment for everybody and realize it's impossible. For example Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt are enjoyment for mose people but never for all people or no longer for each other. :(

Also definition of peudoscience is unclear. All alternative medicine, spirituality, alternative anxiety cures can be proven and used. Maybe not so precisely as some other things. But you don't need to know all pathways or details of some food or device or organ to benefit from methods. After all it's important is it true or false. Truth or lie. Practical, repeatable, useful...

Yesterday i drunk my 6th out of 10 tablets which is 10 mg loratadine (and lactose and crosspovidone and magnesiums stearate). Although 1st 5 ones did drastically reduce my sneezing, tears, mucous...this one didn't work at all. I don't know why and what happened. It was rainy day and definitely there was 0% pollen in air. Rain lasted at least 6 hours. Plus lower temperature than usual and lack of sunlight, which would even without rain at least reduce pollen in air.

Then i watched movie in which one guy got sick and I got sick too. I think I got sinusitis, because it can't be prevented by antihistamines. Actually I am sure it was. Then I got extremely tired, there was literally mucous and tears all over my eyes.

Then i slept 8+4 hours. I say +4 because that day when i got sick I got 4 hours earlier than usual. Then today, all my hay fever and sinusitis dissappeared. This is just evidence that toxemia and enervation are cause of disease, as Herbert Shelton defined. No more tiredness or mucous or unclear picture in eyes or anything like that.

Well, when I say I have no hay fever, I don't mean 100%. But at least 80% is prevented/reduced. Meaning still those antihistamines can't reduce completely. If I overeat or overdo or skip sleep now, I risk gettings sinusitis again. Any excess, loss of energy, lack of sleep or rest, bad or excess of food can quickly make a disease.

Oh, and I once few years ago started fasting, without even drinking water, and succeeded for 4 days. There were some symptoms like diarrhea, dizziness, light appearing before eyes every few seconds, tiredness...but I was not worried as Shelton all explained this and is to be expected. Same would occur with somebody giving up drugs or alcohol or any other habit of ingesting what we do not need (we need food, but ONLY when hungry and natural/balanced/normal/restricted).

On end of my 4th day I decided to start eating only what Shelton said: fruits. Of course I was not so patient or stable, so I overeat on bananas and peaches. Immeadiately I got sinusitis for first time in my life. I called ambulance but they didn't cared, they say you can come, that's nothing. It was extreme pain and suffering like hay fever but 1000 times worse. Unlike hay fever it can't be reduced or stopped by any medication, including antihistamines. That is just evidence that hay fever has nothing to do with pollen or medications. Hay fever is only degree of sickness, if we increase it it turns into sinusitis....and into death in the end.

I quickly grabbed my pdf "Complete Handbook of Nature Cures" and searched for words "sneeze", "mucous", "pain", "headache", "toothache" which were symptoms i was experiencing. At that moment I did not know what is sinusitis, all i knew was what is hay fever and what are my symptoms.

And I found this text:

"Sinusitis refers to an inflammation of the mucous membrane lining the paranasal sinuses. It often follows the common cold, influenza and other general infections. Germs which are usually eliminated from body sometimes find their way into these sinuses or chambers on either side of the nasal passage, leading to sinus trouble. The sinuses consist of cavities or chambers contained in the bones situated in the head and face region. The frontal ,maxillary, ethmoid and sphenoid sinuses are the paranasal sinuses which communicate with the nose. The frontal sinuses lie on the frontal bone directly above the eyes. The maxillary sinuses are located one on each side of the nose under the cheekbone. The ethmoid and sphenoid sinuses are situated behind the nose or either sideof it. These air sinuses lighten the weight of the skull and give resonance to the voice.

Symptoms:
The symptoms of sinusitis are excessive or constant sneezing, a running nose, blockage of one or both nostrils, headaches and pressure around the head, eyes and face. Sinus headaches are usually felt in the forehead and in the face just below the eyes. The patient may suffer from a low grade fever, lack of appetite, loss of sense of appetite, and toothache. He feels miserable because of difficulty in breathing. The voice is also affected because of the blocked nose.

Causes:
Sinusitis results from the congestion of the sinus passages due to catarrh. It is caused by over-secretion of mucus in the membranes lining the nose, throat and head. This over-secretion is due to irritation caused by toxins in the blood. A faulty diet is thus the real cause of sinus trouble. When a person consumes certain types of foods or drinks regularly, these, in due course, have a conditioning effect on the entire system. As a result,some persons become more sensitive to certain allergens, whose reaction ultimately turns into sinusitis."

I reacted with "WOOOW". It immediately made me calm/reassured. I can't believe this book so fast diagnosed my disease, and gave me solution. Yet it is a bit old book. I immediately believed and everything made sense. I realized it is truth because it listed exactly all symptoms and lifestyle i had. The same book which i first found to offer cure for hay fever. So I didn't eat for 1 day more, and really all my suffering dissappeared. Later I kept overeating and eating bad food like before, and got many diseases (influenza...) each year, because I can't stop myself. Habit just like from drugs and many more. Later I learned about it more and figured out something:

FASTING IS NOT STARVING.
APPETITE IS NOT HUNGER.
FASTING DOES NOT EXIST.

Although no author mentioned that 3rd one, that's the truth i figured out by comparing some books...

And Polverone banned Doctor of Orthotrophy or Doctor of Orthopathy, whatever, for no logical reason, but personal:

1.) Because it sounds too good to be true. Huh, hay fever and diabetes and many diseases are incurable. I don't like it.

2.) It sounds too bad. I can't stop eating mainstream food and other habits. What would I enjoy?

My answer to this guy is: What would you suffer? Disease is much worse than anything else you could do to prevent or reduce it.

It is true that i did not try curing hay fever using these makes-sense methods. But that is because authors only offered solutions to diseases, for which causes are let's say overeating and eating. They did not explain cause of cause. Cause that lead us to eat bad or too much, to use drugs, to drink alcohol, to overdo anything.

I identified one cause is boredom and other bad feelings. But what is cure for boredom? Eckhart Tolle and mc2method explained and offered methods, but maybe i am not trying enough, maybe something is missing...maybe they don't work?

[Edited on 23-6-2018 by DrEvidence]
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coppercone
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[*] posted on 23-6-2018 at 06:51


I will not be shaken down for data, I am not your or this forums adjunct or graduate student.

If you post something useful anyone can use the thread. I don't understand why you are making demands.

[Edited on 23-6-2018 by coppercone]
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