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Kilartheli
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Glassware in Texas - Register or Not?
Hello all!
I would like to acquire a fairly large/advanced set of glassware (for organic chemistry) from a supplier on ebay. I'll probably have around 50-75
pieces when it's all said and done with. With that being said I can state my issue, and questions.
First, I know Texas has a glassware registration law, and I find this to be absolutely insane and utterly stupid beyond all reason!
1. Should I register my glassware?
2. What happens if I don't register my glassware, and I get a visit from the local gestapo? Will they confiscate it and charge me with some unheard of
crime?
3. I'm a student of all science, and I have no intention of doing anything illegal with my glassware. With this being said, should I still worry if I
don't register my glassware?
4. I read in a post after I searched the forum that Texas has it's own set of "LIST 1" chemicals. I searched google, but I couldn't find anything. Can
somebody provide me with a link to said list, or perhaps state them here?
5. I plan on practicing organic synthesis and so sooner or later, and I will have to acquire many reagents that may raise flags. I'll be staying away
from all the DEA list 1 chemicals, but will my actions (buying glassware, and chemicals for org syn) still raise red flags?
I know I may come off as sounding paranoid, but Texas is one of the worst places around for practicing chemistry, especially organic chemistry. Of
course, the more meth labs that are put out of commission is always good, but at the same time they hurt scientists with crazy laws and restrictions.
Either way, I do not want to hear this answer "move out of Texas" because at the moment this is absolutely impossible.
The sum of existence can be described in this paradox: "That which is, is like that which is not."
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Ozone
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This is just my $0.02 worth: I would keep a low profile and do what I wish. You are an amateur scientist, not a sex offender (who, so far as I know,
are the only "free" citizens that are required to "register" for anything except firearms). I would be discrete, I would not advertise and I would
have a damn good (possibly true ) story that I would have in the event that I am
discovered.
I might also have a corporation and (probably more important) some very good friends (preferably in places higher than you).
Be extra-nice to the people you meet. You never know.
Cheers,
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
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joeflsts
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Something I find interesting about Texas glassware laws is that Erlenmeyer Flasks are not allowed and yet Fry's sells them in their stores.
I think the law looks good on paper and are handy when it comes time to put a meth cook away for a long time.
Joe
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YT2095
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Personally I would declare it and register them if that`s the Law.
since Ignorance of law is no defence, you can never use that, and since your intentions are Honest it`s best to keep your ass covered.
but that`s just My opinion, I`m sure plenty here will disagree with me.
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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mrjeffy321
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One should obey just laws.
You may want to read some of the actual wording of the law yourself, there you will find lists of chemicals and glassware which come under regulation,
as well as requirements and penalties,
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/HS/content/pdf/hs....
[Edited on 9-17-2007 by mrjeffy321]
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YT2095
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it Is best to go legal IMO.
and all being well it shouldn`t cost you anything to simply register these glass articles, if it does, then trust me, I feel your pain!
small scale Pyro WAS (yes past tense) a interest of mine, I like making different color formulas and making them into Fountains (Gerbs) as well as
Catherine Wheels(pinwheels) and sometime I may do a small rocket or 2.
I have to save up a good amount of cash now (about 500 GBP) to get my Cat4 (UN code 1.4) MSER License before I can even consider doing this again
legally.
which to Me seems crazy because even that (probably the lowest grade Licence) entitles me to make 10,000 (yes TEN THOUSAND) times more than I ever
want to make or even made anyway!
until then I`m allowed to make up to 100g of a Cat 4 mix in a lab and light it on a plate (like school demos). now that`s great for the most part and
I`m happy with it, BUT I can no longer make a fountain for my garden or even a Sparkler!
on a brighter note, the renewal is less than half the initial cost for each year after that.
so you`re Not on your own!
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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Mr. Wizard
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So you are planning to do something illegal, you give your location and then ask for help conspiring to break the law. Well duh-uh. Isn't Waco in
Texas ?
All on your first post; Good job. I see you got a few bites too.
Obey the law, or go somewhere where you can obey the law, or lobby for a law change. Stop asking advice on how to break the law, and asking other
people to help you do it. That's my two cents worth.
BTW I think the law regarding registering glassware is stupid too, but that's not the issue here.
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Maya
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might as well do it and when they come to inspect they will find nothing wrong and be tired of knocking on your door so that means they won't come
again
[Edited on 17-9-2007 by Maya]
\"Prefiero ser yo extranjero en otras patrias, a serlo en la mia\"
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Ozone
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Things are becoming pretty "sheisty" here. I still stand by anonymity *unless* the quantities are large. A few grams (unless it's *really* special) is
usually of little interest. A couple of kg...might get some attention.
The conundrum, however, is the thought that when "they" visit your house (buy a new door...) your registration will tell them that your stuff is OK
(and hopefully, they will leave, without destruction, confiscation or captivity); my question is, would visitation become more likely b/c of
registration?
My prognostication is "probably...yes".
I think that "they" will always take the easy mark first. That keeps the stats high and the casualties low.
"The bigger the bust, the bigger the boost" --Sgt. Stedenko (sic?)
Cheers,
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
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Twospoons
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On the other hand, someone who is upfront and registers, all nice and legal, is (I would have thought) unlikely to be doing anything illicit. The
authorities are going to look rather stupid if all their 'stats' are false alarms with no convictions.
I vote you stay above board, and register like you are supposed to, so there is no basis for charges against you.
Better still, why not sound out the local authorites BEFORE buying any glassware. Surely they can't nab you for asking?
Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
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Sauron
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I agree with Twospoons. If you have nothing to hide, never act as if you do.
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pantone159
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The Texas law requires individuals to register BEFORE buying listed glassware, and to re-request permits for each and every piece of equipment you
want, and you have to wait for the permit (which might be denied) before acquiring said equipment.
I think you specifically consent to an inspection when applying.
Listed equipment includes 'adaptor tube' and 'transformer', btw.
The chemical list is approximately DEA List I, don't remember the specifics offhand. Not nearly as much of an issue as the equipment.
I think there is a link to the actual law somewhere on this site. EDIT - It is posted earlier in this thread by mrjeffy321.
Are there any members in TX who have actually applied for permits?
Personally, I am mainly interested in inorganic color change kind of stuff, and beakers and test tubes (which aren't listed) mostly suffice for that,
so I can stay legal, albeit irritated.
[Edited on 18-9-2007 by pantone159]
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geezmeister
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My comments are made from the perspective of a defense lawyer with thirty years experience in criminal defense in the United States.
Texas has some very unreasonable laws, the chemical apparatus laws being among them.
Texas also has a high rate of convictions in criminal cases and is the nation's leading executioner.
You have chosen to live in Texas, which is your fault.
That said:
If you are not a business but wish to possess glassware (and the list is so basic most anything you will use is included) you must register. You must
provide you driver's license, description and registration of your vehicle, you address, and a description of how the apparatus is to be used. You
must report any loss or theft of glassware within three days (I assume breakage is included in "loss") and must consent to a search of the premises
where the glassware is to be used or stored. This inspection need not be by warrant, but is done administratively. That is not to say that inspections
may be done on a random basis, or done arbitrarily or on the whim of the authorities.
As to the right to inspect: The usual restrictions under American jurisprudence regarding administrative inspections and searches would apply to the
home of the registrant; the limitation on authorities is less than a probable cause standard, but more than a mere suspicion standard, and
administrative inspections must be based on standards or schedules adopted by the administrative level officials who are amenable to the public by way
of election or appointment by elected officials rather than by the field officers themselves. In summary, you are waiving a search warrant requirement
for a search of your home or wherever you keep the glassware; you are not necessarily submitting to arbitrary or unreasonable searches by agreeing to
allow inspection. You can expect to be inspected, but you may also expect the inspections to follow some form of schedule.
Possession of glassware by one without a permit falls under the penalty provisions for possession of paraphernalia. That is a misdemeanor in Texas.
The glassware is also subject to forfeiture. It is a third degree felony to distribute a chemical apparatus without compliance with the act. So you
commit a felony if you sell some of your glassware in state.
You must register and have a permit to receive glass from another state in Texas.
If you are sincere in your statement that you will not be doing drug chemistry, and are interested only in organic synthesis, you should comply with
the law, register, obtain a permit, and not have to worry about your activity being detected.
If you fail or refuse to register, you have violated the law. Any conviction of that nature will put a serious crimp in any future plans you have for
employment in legitimate industry, academia, or government. Your glassware will be subject to forfeiture, and the gestapo will likely confiscate all
you chemicals as well being certain you are a clandestine drug chemist... remember... not many cops have an education beyond an a.b. degree ( two
year) if they have that much education. They have no idea what you have or what it is for... and it is not likely that the first wave of door busters
will have someone with a chemistry education along to inform them they are overreacting.
If you have any designs or plans to use the apparatus for any illegal purposes, whether drug related or not, you are best advised to move elsewhere.
The Texas law on chemistry apparatus is designed to intimidate would be drug makers and prevent them from acquiring glassware. It is also designed to
facilitate the seizure of such glassware and provides an assumption for officers that anyone who had glassware without a proper permit or
registration has no legitimate reason for having it. It allows the forfeiture of the glassware regardless of whether it has ever been used for an
illegal purpose.
From a practical standpoint, if you have no illegal uses in mind, you should not fear having the permit or registering. Once the authorities realize
you are legitimate, their interest in you will rapidly wane. It is far better to be legal should you have a lab accident which brings out the local
fire department or causes calls by neighbors to 911.
Expect cops to be suspicious. Expect them to be confused by your registration and legitimate use. Expect to be rabid if you have not registered or
obtained your permit.
mostly harmless
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Maya
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I would capitulate, assuming U R not doing illegal activities and register every single one of your coffee pots and cleaner chemicals in your permit
application along with any other glass and chemical no matter how mundane. its a pain but they will tire of you and leave you alone
\"Prefiero ser yo extranjero en otras patrias, a serlo en la mia\"
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Sauron
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Here are your choices
1. Comply
2, Move out of state
3. Incorporate assuming businesses are exempt
4. Go "bare" and criminalize yourself, subjecting your glassware to forfeiture and acquiring a record as a vilator
I don't like this stupid nazi law any more than you do, but, I do not see how (4) is a viable option for any Texas resident.
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Kilartheli
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First of all, I wish to state that I really appreciate the replies I've received thus far.
Now to my replies, and unfortunately I will not be able to reply to everyone that's posted. With this said, I will reply to a few that merit immediate
attention.
| Quote: |
You have chosen to live in Texas, which is your fault.
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I was born here, and I didn't choose to live in this abyss.
| Quote: |
You may want to read some of the actual wording of the law yourself, there you will find lists of chemicals and glassware which come under regulation,
as well as requirements and penalties...
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I've read the law, but thank you very much.
| Quote: |
The Texas law requires individuals to register BEFORE buying listed glassware, and to re-request permits for each and every piece of equipment you
want, and you have to wait for the permit (which might be denied) before acquiring said equipment.
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This is very bothersome, very bothersome indeed. I'm in absolute dismay by this reply. I do thank you however, you've been very helpful. Most likely
the most helpful out of all the replies I've received. Let me ask you a question since you live in Texas; how long does the process take to receive
one permit?
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The chemical list is approximately DEA List I, don't remember the specifics offhand. Not nearly as much of an issue as the equipment.
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I'm aware of the DEA List I chemicals, but I read in another thread on this board that Texas had a completely separate List I. I searched on Google,
but couldn't find anything. So apparently what I read in that specific thread was wrong.
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Are there any members in TX who have actually applied for permits?
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This is an interesting question. I would be very interested in hearing replies regarding other members applications for permits.
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I would capitulate, assuming U R not doing illegal activities and register every single one of your coffee pots and cleaner chemicals in your permit
application along with any other glass and chemical no matter how mundane. its a pain but they will tire of you and leave you alone
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You forget all the transformers in electronic equipment. 
Either way, apparently all TX citizens are breaking the law. I doubt they've registered their transformers or coffee pots...
| Quote: |
1. Comply
2, Move out of state
3. Incorporate assuming businesses are exempt
4. Go "bare" and criminalize yourself, subjecting your glassware to forfeiture and acquiring a record as a vilator
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If I had to pick, I would pick number two. However, that is not a viable option. Most likely I'll go with three and incorporate. That seems to be the
route with the least amount of headaches.
--------
Everyone except Mr. Wizard can stop reading here if you so desire.
Mr. Wizard, your reply was most bothersome, and I felt that it should be at the bottom of my post. I probably shouldn't have even replied to your
post, but unfortunately my pride got the best of me.
| Quote: |
So you are planning to do something illegal, you give your location and then ask for help conspiring to break the law. Well duh-uh. Isn't Waco in
Texas ?
All on your first post; Good job. I see you got a few bites too. |
You may have more posts than I, but that's no reason to be an absolute bugger. Nor is it a reason to be arrogant and make snide remarks.
| Quote: |
Obey the law, or go somewhere where you can obey the law, or lobby for a law change. Stop asking advice on how to break the law, and asking other
people to help you do it. That's my two cents worth.
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I'm not asking for advice on how to break the law. I'm asking a series of simple questions which apparently you've been unable to fathom, or
apparently you just don't care. If that's the case, not caring, you shouldn't have even replied to my thread!
Either way, your post was very unwelcomed. Hope you have a nice night - in hell that is! BAH!
EDIT: cleaned up BBCode.
[Edited on 18-9-2007 by Kilartheli]
[Edited on 18-9-2007 by Kilartheli]
The sum of existence can be described in this paradox: "That which is, is like that which is not."
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Sauron
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If I were in your shoes I would verify that businesses are exempted. Even if they are you may have problems relative to commercial vs residential
zoning (depending on just how urban and busybodyish your locale may be.) You'll need a state business license, a county one and maybe a municipal
one, registration for sales tax even though you won't be selling anything (assuming Tx has sales tax) and that will mean monthly filings regardless of
no sales activity. Only good news there is that you can exempt yourself from Tx sales tax, by buying in corp name. You definitely will want to
register with IRS as that gets you an all important EIN number (employers identification) and THAT makes a lot of difference with companies like
Aldrich.
As to Tx chemical list, ask the Tx state police or Rangers. They ought to know.
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woelen
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If I really had to do what Sauron mentions, with all that paperwork, monthly filings, getting licenses from multiple authorities, then I would select
another hobby  . Sad that things have developed in this way, but apparently, doing
home chemistry in a legal way in Texas is next to impossible, except maybe for the most simple things.
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Sauron
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Do you have friends or relatives in an adjacent state?
Is your locale urban or rural?
Are you smack dab in middle of Tx or reasonably close to a state line w/transportation of your own?
If answers to first and third questions are YES and to second question is RURAL, and particularly if you live alone (no roommate, gf, wife to rat you
out) you might think about setting up a mail drop/shipping accomodation address out of state and then making a run back and forth every week or two
(or when you know something is there to pick up). Not my recommendation, but, if circumstances are right then a possibility.
Bear in mind that while possesion of unregistered "paraphernalia" is a misdemeanor, unlawful importation into Tx is a felony so you will want to
sanitize away all shipping labels, invoices, etc. that would be prima facia evidence that you just transported such glassware in from a contiguous
state, you would want to be confident of the loyalty of your friends/relatives there and you would want to drive carefully on your way home.
I say again I am NOT advocating this as your plan, I am merely musing about a hypothetical. My advice is incorporate if that solves your problems and
register is it does not. Incorporation may create more problems than it solves. The tangle of federal/Tx/county/municipal govt oversight is something
I am just frigging delighted to have left behind two decades ago. In Thailand I have one just one govt to worry about and by and large they could give
a rat's ass about any of this. Glass is just glass and chemicals with a few exceptions are just chemicals. The name of the country Prathet Thai in
their own language means the Kingdom of the Free and they mean it. Remember when ours used to be the Land of the Free? Well, maybe you can't
remember, as it hasn't really been true since Teddy Roosevelt's time.
[Edited on 19-9-2007 by Sauron]
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pantone159
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The link that mrjeffy321 has the chemical list, it is:
(A)Methylamine;
(B)Ethylamine;
(C)D-lysergic acid;
(D)Ergotamine tartrate;
(E)Diethyl malonate;
(F)Malonic acid;
(G)Ethyl malonate;
(H)Barbituric acid;
(I)Piperidine;
(J)N-acetylanthranilic acid;
(K)Pyrrolidine;
(L)Phenylacetic acid;
(M)Anthranilic acid;
(N)Ephedrine;
(O)Pseudoephedrine;
(P)Norpseudoephedrine; or
(Q)Phenylpropanolamine.
I think these are all DEA List I except (K). Some List I substances are not on the Texas list. (E.g. benzaldehyde, nitroethane, even safrole!)
I have, however, seen (elsewhere on this board somewhere), a permit form that listed some additional chems, red phosphorus, I think.
There is some modified process for institutions, they don't have to request a permit for each individual purchase, I don't remember the details
(you'll have to read the horrible legalese yourself), but it is much less burdensome than the one for individuals. I also don't know what you have to
do to qualify for the institution/business permit.
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MagicJigPipe
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One other thing you must think about is a lot of states (I'm not sure about Texas but I would think so) have laws about combinations of certain
chemicals whether they are listed or not. And there are even some federal (and state) laws that have nothing to do with drugs that are about safe
handeling and using things "consistent with their labeling" (assuming you are using even one household chemical in your lab).
Let's say you are doing everything right and all your shit is registered, you signed your privacy away and then you get inspected. The person of
authority that conducts this inspection knows nothing of chemistry, or drugs for that matter, thinks that there is nothing legitimate you could be
doing and gets pissed (very likely). So he starts looking for stuff to take you down for. Let's say you have stuff to make NH3 with, elemental Na
and acetone. Bam, against the law. Using your isopropanol for something other than what it says on the label.... JAIL.
My point is if they don't like the fact that you practice chemistry and they even THINK that you are synthesizing drugs or even explosives (that
includes anything that can be considered explosive) then they can almost certainly get you for SOMETHING.
Whether or not it will fly in court is a question for a lawyer but you will almost certainly go to jail if you get the wrong cop.
So unless you are going to abide by all federal, state and local chemical regulations and safety/transportation/use laws then I would advise moving to
a less NAZIish state or not registering and being extremely careful.
Unfortunatley, these fucking meth heads have started a witch hunt type atmosphere and it hurts many legitamite people. Although they aren't
completely to blame, cops overreact because of ignorance, further hurting the situation.
[Edited on 2-10-2007 by MagicJigPipe]
[Edited on 2-10-2007 by MagicJigPipe]
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Sauron
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I see it's a safe bet you never went to law school.
Those are not LAWS.
And they have approximately the same penalties as removing that tag from your mattress.
<Snore>
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Sauron
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@pantone, let me rearrange that list to group the chemicals together by product they are precursors to.
Group 1
(A)Methylamine;
(L)Phenylacetic acid;
(N)Ephedrine;
(O)Pseudoephedrine;
(P)Norpseudoephedrine; or
(Q)Phenylpropanolamine
Group 2
(B)Ethylamine;
(C)D-lysergic acid;
(D)Ergotamine tartrate;
Group 3
(E)Diethyl malonate;
(F)Malonic acid;
(G)Ethyl malonate;
(H)Barbituric acid;
Group 4
(I)Piperidine;
(J)N-acetylanthranilic acid;
(M)Anthranilic acid;
Misc
I really do not why this is on here.
(K)Pyrrolidine;
.
But in every other case the target compounds are obvious and need no elaboration. I doubt that they have seen an acid lab in a coon's age, and I also
doubt that many cooks are after barbiturates or methaqualone these days. Note also that this list is far from comprehensive even if we are only
talking about the obvious products. Where's the o-toluidine? Cyclohexanone? Bromobenzene?
Not a very scary list.
[Edited on 3-10-2007 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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evil_lurker
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
One other thing you must think about is a lot of states (I'm not sure about Texas but I would think so) have laws about combinations of certain
chemicals whether they are listed or not. And there are even some federal (and state) laws that have nothing to do with drugs that are about safe
handeling and using things "consistent with their labeling" (assuming you are using even one household chemical in your lab).
Let's say you are doing everything right and all your shit is registered, you signed your privacy away and then you get inspected. The person of
authority that conducts this inspection knows nothing of chemistry, or drugs for that matter, thinks that there is nothing legitimate you could be
doing and gets pissed (very likely). So he starts looking for stuff to take you down for. Let's say you have stuff to make NH3 with, elemental Na
and acetone. Bam, against the law. Using your isopropanol for something other than what it says on the label.... JAIL.
My point is if they don't like the fact that you practice chemistry and they even THINK that you are synthesizing drugs or even explosives (that
includes anything that can be considered explosive) then they can almost certainly get you for SOMETHING.
Whether or not it will fly in court is a question for a lawyer but you will almost certainly go to jail if you get the wrong cop.
So unless you are going to abide by all federal, state and local chemical regulations and safety/transportation/use laws then I would advise moving to
a less NAZIish state or not registering and being extremely careful.
Unfortunatley, these fucking meth heads have started a witch hunt type atmosphere and it hurts many legitamite people. Although they aren't
completely to blame, cops overreact because of ignorance, further hurting the situation.
[Edited on 2-10-2007 by MagicJigPipe]
[Edited on 2-10-2007 by MagicJigPipe] |
I totally agree.
Law enforcement in the USA is free to charge you with whatever they want due and with little to no recourse due to a little something the courts call
"qualified immunity".
In fact, it is common practice to "stack" as many charges against a defendant stemming from one event as LE can dream up because it makes them look
better (meaning they get more money diverted to their dept.) and a better chance of something actually "sticking".
Many times the DA will drop one or more of the charges when the Defendant goes to court because they know some of the charges will not stick, or that
they will get stuck with more serious charges which makes the lesser charges meaningless since all time served is usually concurrent.
What sucks is that with all the charges bail is set higher (which the defendant if they go thru a bondsman loses 10-15% instantly and forever), and it
costs much more to retain an attorney.
In the end, even if you somehow manage to beat the charges, the chance that you will recover anything expended in your defense is slim to none.
So basically, the moral of the story is if you get raided AT ALL one can expect money in the 5 digit range going *poof* never to be seen again... and
thats in a best case scenario.
Fortunately though, most of the federal and state agencies don't work together... basically they are so big and bloated that the head doesn't know
what the asshole is doing unless they are working on a big operation.
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in
beer.
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Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
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There are NO laws that restrict how an individual may make use of a product he purchases, with a few provisos.
Laboratory chemicals may not be used for food, drug or cosmetic applications, this is not a law but a restriction placed by the manufacturer to exempt
them from FDA control.
It has no force in law.
Similar statements on containers of household chemicals are likewise placed there by the manufacturers on advice of counsel to try to limit the
liability of the manufacturer. This likewise has no force in law.
ANYTHING in United States federal law is published in the United States Code (USC) and if it is not there it is not US Law. There is also the CFR
(Code of Federal Regulations) which are regulations (not laws) promulgated by federal agencies under specific enabling legislation from Congress.
Those enabling laws will be found in USC and will always be cited in CFR.
Anyone who says thus and so is US law, kindly cite the USC chapter and section, if you want credibility. Regulations are not laws but may be backed
up by law. If it's a regulation cite the CFR.
The pulings and deemings of misbegotten corporate lawyers are not LAW. The proposition that the cops are going to do you for using your running
alcohol for something other than massage, is puerile.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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