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Author: Subject: Druken Aga Challenge (DAC) #3 - Closed (but open to discussion)
battoussai114
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[*] posted on 5-7-2015 at 17:35


So I've been thinking of getting some copper vessels to test the catalytic activity of copper on ammonia oxidation (nothing more complex than space velocity and the effect of parameters such as temperature and residence time). But I'm not sure about how to test the conversion to NOx if ammonia is not completely removed. If all I got was N2 and NOx I could just run the gas through a wet scrubber containing hydrogen peroxide and then titrate to check how much acid was formed. But if there's also ammonia I'd get aqueous ammonia and then ammonia nitrate, and I'm not so sure how'd I check for it... sure I could just evaporate and weight what I got (assuming I got some deionized water and no contaminants in the H2O2), but that would be kinda problematic as some ammonia could pass through the scrubber without being dissolved, and I'm not too much into building a wet glass absorption column.
Also, any ideas on how to make a fluidized bed reactor without needing to pressurize the ammonia stream prior to running it through the reactor?
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violet sin
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[*] posted on 6-7-2015 at 01:37


"any ideas on how to make a fluidized bed reactor without needing to pressurize the ammonia stream prior to running it through the reactor?"

you need oxygen right? atmospheric O2 or canister O2 injection from the bottom, adjustable(needle valve) and constantly on during operation, with an interruptible and adjustable NH3 line that feeds into the O2 injection port. if NH3 is at minimal needed supply pressure, it shouldn't affect the bed too much, so it won't spray it out.

just a quick though
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ave369
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[*] posted on 12-7-2015 at 02:41


My solution to the challenge, using what's available in my hometown.

Step 1: I go to the farmer market, buy a crocodile and a baby donkey.

Step 2: I kill the crocodile and the baby donkey.

Step 3: I stuff the crocodile with the baby donkey and put them in an old fuel drum.

Step 4: I start to heat the fuel drum with a campfire.

Step 5: I start to chant Hare Krishna and dance around the drum with a tambourine.

Step 6: I discard the tambourine, the drum, the crocodile and the donkey. I go to the spare car parts section of the town shopping arcade and buy battery acid. I concentrate the battery acid by boiling and evaporation of water, getting 96% H2SO4. I go to the gardening section of the town shopping arcade and buy any form of nitrate fertilizer. I put the acid and the fertilizer into a distillation apparatus and start to slowly heat the flask with mixture. I collect red fuming nitric acid. I dilute the red fuming nitric acid with water and start bubbling air through it until it becomes colorless.

Step 7: PROFIT

I am perfectly aware of the fact that this is boring, uninnovative and less fun than extracting nitric acid from crocodiles stuffed with donkeys. But it works.

[Edited on 12-7-2015 by ave369]

[Edited on 12-7-2015 by ave369]
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j_sum1
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[*] posted on 12-7-2015 at 04:01


Interesting edit ave369. Your post is very different from when I first saw it.
Discussion early on in this competition clarified that use of nitrates from fertiliser was excluded as a method for this competition.
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ave369
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[*] posted on 12-7-2015 at 05:29


As far as I know, the competition is no longer going on.

As for the edit... I've made it after I realized that using nitrate fertilizer is not kosher because it isn't interesting or innovative. So I made up a very interesting and innovative method involving crocodiles and donkeys. Shame it doesn't work, unlike the fertilizer method.
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battoussai114
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[*] posted on 12-7-2015 at 07:55


Quote: Originally posted by ave369  
As far as I know, the competition is no longer going on.


As far as there is an "Open" beside the title of the discussion, its open :P

[Edited on 12-7-2015 by battoussai114]
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aga
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[*] posted on 12-7-2015 at 11:25


The Competition, and the Prize are still available.

Nobody has been able to reach the target.

The competition will Continue until someone wins the Prize.

I think i increased the prize from 250 euros to 350 euros at some point.

[Edited on 12-7-2015 by aga]




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[*] posted on 22-7-2015 at 03:41


Im thinking of the red hot copper wire method.Not wire,sponge(having acces to copper sponge :D) to minimalise the ammonia content in the end product.The ammonia generator would be NKP fertiliser(so not pure nitrate salt) and drain cleaner(unkown NaOH content, only says 40-60%).Heat the copper sponge in a copper pipe and run ammonia thrue it.
Can 35 % H2O2 used?
Water poorly absorbs nitrogen oxides.
I might post a pic about the apparatus.
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[*] posted on 22-7-2015 at 08:08


Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt  
Water poorly absorbs nitrogen oxides.


Try absorbing it in NaOH or Na2CO3. You will end up with sodium nitrate/nitrite in solution. Agitate it with air for a few days to convert the nitrite to nitrate.




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[*] posted on 22-7-2015 at 08:11


Yeah, but the goal is nitric acid and not merely nitrates. Otherwise you could simply take the fertiliser and -- you know, dissolve it in water.
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SimpleChemist-238
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[*] posted on 22-7-2015 at 12:08


Easy, stump remover or cold pack, and PH down from publix. Distill and add water to get it to 30%.

Or

Calcium nitrate fertilizer and sulfuric acid. Then add water after filtration.




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[*] posted on 22-7-2015 at 12:13


Quote: Originally posted by SimpleChemist-238  
Easy, stump remover or cold pack, and PH down from publix. Distill and add water to get it to 30%.

Or

Calcium nitrate fertilizer and sulfuric acid. Then add water after filtration.
Clearly you haven't read this thread. Take a few minutes and come back when you're done. Not so simple as that, SimpleChemist.



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[*] posted on 22-7-2015 at 12:16


sigh

Perhaps there should be a New DAC #5.5 Challenge :

50p for whoever can read the rules and totally ignore them the best, and who finds the FIRST and WELL KNOWN route to HNO3 the fastest.

Hey ! How about Distill a Nitrate salt with conc H2SO4.

Woohoo ! I won the DAC #5.5 !! Wheee.

Yawn.




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[*] posted on 22-7-2015 at 12:25


OK.

Many of you guys are much better chemists that i can ever hope to be.

Try to think more sideways rather than down the well-trodden routes that you have studied.

In other words, try to Use your knowledge imaginatively rather than spin around inside the safe, known areas.

kecskesajt is maybe onto something.

Perhaps the Copper need not be solid copper, but a complex with Silicon for
example.

I had the idea of using some nitrogen fixing plants in a hydroponic setup to get them to nitrate the water, but got lost when looking for what to do with it after that.




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papaya
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[*] posted on 23-7-2015 at 11:39


Find out this guy and send him money! (well, not nitric ACID, but nitrate)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wW5KR1pDxs
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[*] posted on 23-7-2015 at 12:12


Quote: Originally posted by papaya  
Find out this guy and send him money! (well, not nitric ACID, but nitrate)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wW5KR1pDxs


Hope you realise just how much organic material you need to process to get a modest yield of impure KNO3, you know! ;)

Keep your money and buy some stump remover.

[Edited on 23-7-2015 by blogfast25]




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papaya
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[*] posted on 23-7-2015 at 12:23


Yes, but you can start not from urine but urea, or maybe other organic nitrogen source say proteins. If one can isolate and grow a colony of that particular bacteria (hope it's only one) that's responsible for the process.. then nitrate becomes like brewing your moonshine!
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[*] posted on 23-7-2015 at 12:45


still in the 'normal' loop there, yet spinning off eccentrically.

Keep up the momentum and your mind may arrive in an area where you can find a solution.




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[*] posted on 1-8-2015 at 00:47


Holy flapping duckshit Batman! What a mission!

I started reading this whole thead a couple of nights ago and got sucked in by the drama /exitment of ideas floating around and experiments being conducted didnt end up getting to bed until about 3am :P Work sucked the next day :(

j_sum1 I admire your comitment to this project and I tip my hat to you sir :D Please keep going if you can as it is for a worthy cause :)

I wish I had some info / knowledge to assist the goal but I dont :-(

I would try myself but I get 1L of 70% HNO3 for about $10AU close to home and have never had to make it myself even from the simplest methods so "thinking outside the box", as Aga puts it, is beyond me here. Sorry guys :(

I wish you all the best of luck and look forward to reading more drama / excitment / breakthroughs and inevitably someone piping in with "H2SO4 + XNO3" :mad: shortly :D

Dangle
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deltaH
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[*] posted on 1-8-2015 at 01:25


Yes, it is certainly proving to be elusive. My money is still on the combustion of soybeans to form low concentrations of NOx in the flue gas.




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papaya
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[*] posted on 1-8-2015 at 05:56


deltaH, why to burn soybeans, because it contains some nitrogen ? Then why not to burn urotropin tablets - more nitrogen, cheap.. but it won't give you NO2, only N2 upon combustion. Why do you think burning proteins gives off NOx btw?
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deltaH
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[*] posted on 1-8-2015 at 06:07


I've already discussed this at length earlier in this thread. The production of NOx due to combustion has been heavily studied because of its contribution to air pollution. There are various mechanisms and sources for its formation, one of them, for example from diesel engine exhaust is because of the direct combination of N2 and O2 from air at high temperature, but there's a second known route, so-called fuel nitrogen, i.e. fuels that contain nitrogen in their structure. This is well known, see the discussion early in this thread. When you burn fuels that contain organic nitrogen, you pollute. I simply was going for the worst case scenario, i.e. use protein as fuel and the cheapest protein is soybeans.

The mechanism is complex, but it's critically important to have excess oxygen and as high temperatures as possible, else you will make a lot of N2. This is why this method would require a forced air type furnace to work effectively. I've even suggested a furnace with an internal propeller to smash the beans around to strip ash and maximise internal recycle for the excess air.

We've also discussed adding a catalyst, we settled on manganese dioxide (from soaking beans in KMnO4 solution, then drying) to help with the oxidation of the nitrogen an up selectivity for forming NOx versus N2.

[Edited on 1-8-2015 by deltaH]




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papaya
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[*] posted on 1-8-2015 at 06:25


Well, what I'm trying to say is that if you want to TEST that idea about high temp. combustion you could use urotropine, which is a well defined compound and not the horseshit source of nitrogen, at least in the beginning :)
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deltaH
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[*] posted on 1-8-2015 at 06:36


Hexamine fuel tablets was already suggested for a proof of concept test and I think it IS better suited IMHO.

Look, there's NO DOUBT that you can make NOx by burning nitrogen compounds, that IS the Haber process!!! The challenge is getting it to work precisely with horseshit/piss, cattle feed, etc. lol

[Edited on 1-8-2015 by deltaH]




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[*] posted on 2-8-2015 at 06:50


Hello all :)

I use to be a mechanic and it just occurred to me (cant remember if this idea what touched earlier - Sorry if it has as it is a very long thread!) catalytic converters in cars, trucks, whatever convert:

CO + HxCx (any form of left over hydrocarbon fuel)
= CO2 + H2O

And

NOx = N2 + O2

Would it work if you pulled the exhaust off BEFORE the catalytic converter and bubbled the exhaust fumes through water? Your water would probably form a lot more crap than HNO3! But I believe Aga said distillation is allowed :)


Just wanted to check if this idea had already been looked at and dismissed?

If not I will try find my old mechanic qualification books to see if it has the % of NOx from typical exhaust fumes before they hit the Cat converter to see if the amount of NOx is in a respectable enough quantity.

Also forgot to say it is illegal to start a car with out a cat converter here (Something stupid like a $40,000 fine) but I would be happy to try It in the name of science! :D

Dangle.

[Edited on 2-8-2015 by Dangle89]
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