Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Adios

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Sauron - 12-3-2008 at 03:53

I am ceasing to post here.

The environment on the forum has become unendurable for me.

I have infoirmed "management" of my reasons.

Those of you who have my email address can reach me there, others by PM. I have not yet taken the step of resigning completely, but it may come to that.

Best wishes to all but a few, and confusion to them.

Phosphor-ing - 12-3-2008 at 06:34

Sad to see ya go. Take care of yourself.

Fleaker - 12-3-2008 at 09:44

What a pity. This is becoming intolerable.

Magpie - 12-3-2008 at 11:08

I think you should reconsider. You have a lot to contribute and I have learned much from you. If you could put on political blinders I think you would do just fine on this board.

LEAVING

azo - 12-3-2008 at 14:14

EDITED BY VULTURE:

All caps is considered as SHOUTING.

[Edited on 12-3-2008 by vulture]

vulture - 12-3-2008 at 14:18

Azo, learn how to post or you'll be involuntarily removed from posting. Thank you.

azo - 12-3-2008 at 14:29

SEE WHAT I MEAN ,YOU POST THEN IT IS REMOVED
I CAN SEE NOW WHY SAURON IS LEAVING IF THIS SORT OF THING KEEPS HAPPENING YOU WILL HAVE NO MEMBERS WHAT IN THE HELL DO YOU MEAN BY CAPS IS CLASSED AS SHOUTING IF I WAS SHOUTING I WOULD USE WORDS NOT CAPS .

Polverone - 12-3-2008 at 14:55

RECALIBRATE TELEGRAPH FOR MODERN INTERNET BEFORE POSTING AGAIN STOP

azo - 12-3-2008 at 15:48

OK . BUT REAT PEOPLE WITH RESPECT

7he3ngineer - 12-3-2008 at 16:23

Sauron, perhaps you could reconsider in part... Perhaps refuse to enter into non-organic chemistry discussion for example. You have clearly put a lot of time and effort (and as of late, a lot of emotion) into this community. It will be the loss of this forum if you go.

An expression comes to mind; "Don't let the bastards grind ya down!"

I'm certain everyone would like to see an end to the endless cycle of political dribble (in which little new information is ever introduced), and (almost) everyone understands why you have said enough is enough!

Reconsider,

Josh

BromicAcid - 12-3-2008 at 19:00

See ya, just hope this isn't a ploy for more attention just so you can make a big comeback in a month.

roamingnome - 12-3-2008 at 19:13

discover something cool ..... you have the minerals...

but where will u go.. chemicalforums.org? filled with dweezels that don't want to do their homework

this place is the rose and the thorns...

Pulverulescent - 13-3-2008 at 05:06

Sauron, re your last post on sulfur/chlorine compounds, I was going to preface my reply with the observation, "People like you give this site a good name, dammit!".

If you leave now, I may never know your take on my (putative) novel "catalysed" ozone synthesis on the electrochemical ozone synthesis thread.
And I have have to say, I'm impressed by your wide-ranging interest; you seem to find no area, however difficult, unworthy of investigation, making the rest look like dilettantes, or borderline kewls.

I'm more than borderline,BTW; my energetic materials obsession affirms my interest in life, but you're the Chymist here.
P

franklyn - 13-3-2008 at 08:40

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
A D I O S . . I am ceasing to post here.
Best wishes to all but a few, and confusion to them.


I'm reminded of the philosopher Schopenhauer known for pessimism and irony.
I quote:
" Life is a sorry business, I have resolved to spend it reflecting upon it "
and from his tome The World as Will and Representation this gem
" A man of genius can hardly be sociable, for what dialogues could indeed
be so intelligent and entertaining as his own monologues ? "
and so on _ http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arthur_Schopenhauer

For you to refrain from correcting someone,
is tantamount to flies keeping away from shit.
As the Terminator said " I'll be back "

Ring the bar bell Carlos Gardel _
Good bye boys, companions of my life ( CLICK HERE LISTEN )

Adios_Muchachos.jpg - 48kB

DrP - 13-3-2008 at 08:53

Quote:
Originally posted by franklyn

For you to refrain from correcting someone,
is tantamount to flies keeping away from shit.
"
[/url]


To correct someone is one thing.... Darn rudeness whilst doing so is another!

Eliteforum - 13-3-2008 at 09:07

Cya Officer!

YT2095 - 13-3-2008 at 09:12

I must admit, I`v always found Swansongs to be rather pathetic too, we were at least spared a load of histrionics and melodrama though.

Oh well, it looks like us Lesser Mortals will have to manage without him *sigh*

ssdd - 13-3-2008 at 18:11

I will likely regret saying this, but why not.

* rant warning *
When I first joined this forum not too long ago (almost a year ago?), it seemed to be a very friendly environment. But it seems as the time has passed people here have become much less tolerating. And yes, while I and others have asked some dumb questions, there are "kinder" ways to deal with this.

In recent months I have been reading posts and the tolerance level on this forum has dropped dramatically. Perhaps it was because when I first joined here it was after coming from E&W, but I am afraid that in some ways this forum has become very similar to E&W regarding peoples attitudes.

You can slam me all you like with my dumb questions and actions from the past, but they were all asked in the quest for learning, perhaps we should just avoid the drama and remember why many are here?


-ssdd

[Edited on 13-3-2008 by ssdd]

chemrox - 13-3-2008 at 19:41

In the "post whore" thread another member mentioned being affraid to post here. When I first joined, I posted some inadequately considered questions and got flamed harder than was necessary to convey the forum norms. I'm hearing from others that the situation has gotten worse. I'm grateful to Polverone for creating and maintaining this place. I know of no other like it. I also feel he could be more involved in the leadership part. It's sad when the most knowledgable members are also the least kind. In times past education was a privalge of the gentle. It has become quite clear that among us are those, however smart they may seem, that are anything but gentle. Sauron's departure should not be taken lightly. While he had little patience for fools and anyone he thought might be a drug cook, he also contributed a lot. He worked hard to serve this little e-community with refs, books and knowledgable posts. Indeed, Sauron made the place less daunting for me and showed me the ropes through PMs and emails. I for one shall miss him. So long good friend- I understand you will still post in refs?

woelen - 14-3-2008 at 00:31

I have double feelings about this. First I want to say it is a pity if Sauron leaves. So, also from me, Sauron, reconsider your decision. Your knowledge and contributions really are appreciated.

On the other hand, we should not be too harsh towards new members, who do not have the knowledge and resources like some of us have. For me, it is not the knowledge and resources which count, but attitude. I now see a bunch of new members coming here, who are really eager to learn and discover. And such persons I like, even if they sometimes ask stupid things. One can tell them that they have done something not so wise in different ways....


@ssdd: I also noticed a somewhat hardening of the atmosphere over here, but things have become better now, compared to 3 or 4 months ago. Open your eyes for that. Things are changing again in the good direction. I also have the impression that the somewhat harder period has not been there without reason. Right now, the atmosphere is getting better again, and at the same time, the really blatant cook threads also have become much less. I think that now we are picking the fruits of what the mods of this site have done in the last half year or so :)

Eliteforum - 14-3-2008 at 02:46

Why is this in Forum Matters? (When it clearly isn't) In fact it should be in Detritus..

franklyn - 14-3-2008 at 05:58

Sauron is one of the more lively debaters at hand. I only lament he spends
too little time on the things that matter and too much time addressing petty
issues of no consequence. The consequence of our gadflies leaving is that by
their absence what is left then is just the shit. The value of this forum is as a
venue for exchange of ideas. It's better served producing less heat and more
light. Argument is not a vice it's a skill, that those less capable need to learn
to meaningfully participate _
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Controversy
The recent death of William F. Buckley _
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Buckley,_Jr.
exemplifies that one is remembered more so for how one says things than
what one actually says _
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/william_f._buckley,_jr.

.

Polverone - 14-3-2008 at 08:58

Sauron is still active in References, so it is not exactly appropriate to eulogize him. Neither is it appropriate to insult him or any other member, in this thread or elsewhere. I think everyone has seen the news by now, so I am closing this thread. If you have concerns about the forum environment, post them in a new Forum Matters thread.

Sayonara from Sauron

Sauron - 3-7-2009 at 19:10

I am weary of the arbitrary and petty tyranny of some moderators, and of the capricious and mercurial "policies" of admin. These are insufferable to me.

Accordingly and with deep regret I must take my leave.

To my many friends here, sorry for not taking the time to make individual farewells.



[Edited on 4-7-2009 by Sauron]

starman - 3-7-2009 at 19:16

Is it really that bad Sauron?Your caustic wit will be sadly missed.Gave me many chuckles,thankfully it was never turned in my direction.

Eliteforum - 4-7-2009 at 00:08

Cya!

User - 4-7-2009 at 03:06

I consider this a loss.
Bon voyage

BromicAcid - 4-7-2009 at 06:33

Thanks for the books!

Should probably be merged:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10129

setback - 4-7-2009 at 06:54

Sigh, he loves attention, huh?

hissingnoise - 4-7-2009 at 06:56

And I'm getting a strong sense of deja vu. . .

solo - 4-7-2009 at 11:03

........you will be missed.....not!.....solo

S.C. Wack - 4-7-2009 at 11:38

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  
I am weary of the arbitrary and petty tyranny of some moderators, and of the capricious and mercurial "policies" of admin.


I have to wonder if making you mod or admin would change this.

I should probably say something for Org, but then again, Org wouldn't be down with appointing myself mouthpiece in memoriam.

Good night, sweet farang.

DJF90 - 4-7-2009 at 12:38

Sauron - You cant leave! You are a large contributor to our community, and I for one will miss your prescence. Others by the looks of it can't wait to see the back of you. I am sure there are many members here where that is not the case. I urge you to reconsider, and hope your departure does not materialise.

GI Caesar - 6-7-2009 at 01:13

Sauron! Come back!

a_bab - 6-7-2009 at 05:00

Well,

Sauron as many other good (cough:Rosco) contributors is grumpy. I once said it's ought to be about the age, but in turn my "calowness" was forgiven :D
Think something like a bored Einstein having to teach a classroom full of 15 years old naugty-and-not-interested-at-all students, who won't listen.

I'd hate it, and I'd stomp on everyone's neck with my boots.


It'd really be a great loss, now that I'm in the middle of some oxalyl chloride synth from 0 even more so.

And whoever the mod who did this is, I hate him. You just don't trow the huge oddly shaped potato of the year, nor you eat it. Instead, you display it so everybody can wonder.

In forums life, just like in the real life, when a member really has to contribute something, unlike the 99+% (including me for that reason), one has to go over the ego and think "what do I really value for this board, even if I'm a mod? Will I ever be able or would I'd ever scan that many books etc? What about my knowledge?"

There are very few extremly precious member here, and Sauron is one of them on theoretical organic chemistry (Philou class). The rest is just a story of badly oriented egocentrism.

I wish Sauron was a robot:
an obviously idiot kewl: "Sauron, you are an idiot. Stop using that superior tone with ppl"
Sauron: "You little bug, your request is irrelevant".

but even then:

Mod: Sauron, you don't behave properly on this board.


In the end, Sauron has to understand that some things just don't deserve attention. The life on the net is not the real life, and sometimes even a mod could be a hidden troll.

Fleaker - 6-7-2009 at 09:01

I hope he'll reconsider or perhaps take a short vacation. At the very least he should check his U2U messages ever and anon.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Rosco Bodine - 6-7-2009 at 14:06

Can't send you off without a song you old dinosaur

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-1HfLpLj3I&feature=relat...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceWKrsJX9N4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty27xUYtDWA&feature=relat...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN_AqUK_3LM&feature=relat...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkLwFfAwbts&feature=relat...

Now here's a golden oldie that is over a thousand years old
actually a blend of two ancient songs - Luminosa (filled with light)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djw1Oa8yg70&fmt=18 Deep Peace - Libera

Attende Domine ( Hear us O Lord )
Et miserere ( And have mercy upon us )
Quia peccavimus tibi ( Who have sinned against Thee )

Deep peace of the wave to you
Of the flowing water
Deep peace of the air to you
Ever breathing still bringing peace

Deep peace of the stars to you
Of the shining heavens
Deep peace of the earth to you
Ever sleeping still bringing peace

Exaudi Christe, Domine miserere mei. ( Hear us O Christ, Lord have mercy on me )
Ad te Rex summe, omnium redemptor,( King high exalted, all the world's Redeemer,)
oculos nostros sublevamus flentes ( To Thee we lift our eyes with weeping )
exaudi Christe, supplicantum preces. ( Christ we implore Thee, hear our humble prayer )

Deep Peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cyWipTrNV4&fmt=18
(the complete) Serenity Prayer and Marisa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06D2zcGFuXQ&fmt=18 Ancient Irish Blessing

Fare Thee Well Old Friend

vulture - 6-7-2009 at 14:14

Quote:

And whoever the mod who did this is, I hate him.


What on earth are you talking about? He wasn't banned, he chose to leave (second time already, nonetheless).

solo - 6-7-2009 at 19:50

.......last time he left he had planned to start his own forum, for all those who thought like him.......and i guess there are a few here that love that boy scout.....so i won't be surprised if he does just that ....i wish him well in his own domain doing what he likes, war gases and his effort at making some acid , as noted by some of his inquiries and candid efforts..........solo

Sauron - 6-7-2009 at 21:10

Lies from this cabron solo require a response.

I have no intention of starting my own forum. I do not need to. A new forum is in the offing and when it is up I will consider joining it.

As to war gases, I already recommended to the admin of the new forum that all discussions of CW agents be banned along with all discussions of illicit drugs and all ddiscussions of explosives. So there, south of the border liar.

Banning those three topics would eliminate 96% of the kewls, idiots and cooks while inconveniencincing but a few legitimate researchers who in any case have other forums at their disposal. Polverone should have done this in 2002. He didn't and the result is a declining forum with its best and brightest departed or departing. And I do not mean myself.

The lie that I am some sort of acid cook is almost too ridiculous to address. I authored a thread on the Wang Hendrickson Reaction in order to understand a recent elegant pathway to an entire polycyclic system, NOT to LSD. This was and is beautiful chemistry. Another canard from the Soupmaker. Tiresome fellow.

I might point out that is a single thread on the W-H makes me a purported acid cook, then what of solo with his myriad of posts and refs on amphetamines, phenethylamines and very little else? Applying hiw own illogic to himself solo must be the world's number one meth cook, bar none. I bet there's a DEA task force breathing fown his neck.

I am considering starting a website to showcase my experiments. I have a domain already registered.



[Edited on 7-7-2009 by Sauron]

Rosco Bodine - 6-7-2009 at 22:47

Sciencemadness, The Art and Science of Amateur Experimentalism

Sheesh, I forgot to fill out my "legitimate researcher"
questionaire and qualification form. Forgive my
transgression. I am only a simple fisherman.

User - 7-7-2009 at 00:47

Would be banning out explosives not be something as denying its endless possibilities?

For example the whole tetrazole chemistry shows that there's so much to talk about and fantasize.This definitely only involves the one's truly interested.
They (kewls) will see the precursors needed and leave.
One could be having related discussions and still remain on some sort of level.
Just by selecting the subjects/topics this could be sustained.

I always think of energetics as a beautiful part of chemistry with some nice physics involved.
But what do I know.

solo - 7-7-2009 at 07:57

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  
Lies from this cabron solo require a response.

I have no intention of starting my own forum. I do not need to. A new forum is in the offing and when it is up I will consider joining it.

As to war gases, I already recommended to the admin of the new forum that all discussions of CW agents be banned along with all discussions of illicit drugs and all ddiscussions of explosives. So there, south of the border liar.

Banning those three topics would eliminate 96% of the kewls, idiots and cooks while inconveniencincing but a few legitimate researchers who in any case have other forums at their disposal. Polverone should have done this in 2002. He didn't and the result is a declining forum with its best and brightest departed or departing. And I do not mean myself.

The lie that I am some sort of acid cook is almost too ridiculous to address. I authored a thread on the Wang Hendrickson Reaction in order to understand a recent elegant pathway to an entire polycyclic system, NOT to LSD. This was and is beautiful chemistry. Another canard from the Soupmaker. Tiresome fellow.

I might point out that is a single thread on the W-H makes me a purported acid cook, then what of solo with his myriad of posts and refs on amphetamines, phenethylamines and very little else? Applying hiw own illogic to himself solo must be the world's number one meth cook, bar none. I bet there's a DEA task force breathing fown his neck.

I am considering starting a website to showcase my experiments. I have a domain already registered.



[Edited on 7-7-2009 by Sauron]



......honest and truthful until the end......this is what he said after his supposed quiting the forum.....solo
-------------------------------------------------------------


From: Sauron
To: solo
Folder: Inbox
Sent: 27-10-2007 at 02:19 AM
Message: I am toying with the idea of an alternative forum, one where many of the now inactive SM members who have stopped posting because of the drug cooks and the anti-American rhetoric, will feel comfortable.

Tentative name The Cysteine Chapel

Your thoughts?

Sauron - 7-7-2009 at 08:08

I toyed with the idea - as I wrote. I dismissed it. Is that what you call evidence? That was TWO YEARS AGO.

There is no inconsistency with my remarks upthread. Yoy remain a mendaciou SOB.

froot - 7-7-2009 at 09:40

Quote:
He didn't and the result is a declining forum with its best and brightest departed or departing.


I totally disagree with that.

Rosco Bodine - 7-7-2009 at 11:52

Quote: Originally posted by a_bab  
Well,

Sauron as many other good (cough:Rosco) contributors is grumpy.


Ha ! What can I say , you got my number, speaking for myself. You too can be old and grumpy one day, just
give it time, and keep something handy for all the aches and pains. Golden years my ass, when you can't hear, can't see,
teeth worn down to the gums, man tool about as worn out,
and young is just a memory or a fleeting moment of sublime lunacy .....yeah getting old really stinks and makes a person a real stinker for it sometimes. Guilty as charged.

GoatRider - 7-7-2009 at 18:46

He's left before?

Was that the time Isildur chopped off his hand, taking the one ring?

Sauron - 7-7-2009 at 19:14

My orcs dealt with that sorry piece of trash. Where did I put the Visine? This eye burns something terrible.

Solo the Snake-tongued seems interested in my motives and plans. He says, erroneously, that I will start a rival forum. I will not. So;o I believe seeks to imply disloyalty.

I suggest solo refresh his memory of how this forum came to be. My understanding is that after The Hive disintegrated (due to arguments over US foreign policy) roguescience was formed. I do not know whethwe polverone was a founder. But sometime later polverone had a falling out with the powes rgar be at roguesci and he left and started SM. For details consult polverone.

So again I say I am NOT starting any forum. I need not because someone else will. And if they do not I will content myself with a blog.

[Edited on 8-7-2009 by Sauron]

crazyboy - 7-7-2009 at 19:43

You sure do a lot of posting for someone leaving for the second time...

Sauron - 7-7-2009 at 20:09

You don't see me posring in any other thread, child.

I reserve the right to repond ro lies. Let all know that the liar solo is the one who is causing my departure. It was his flaming that caused Nicodem to act, and polverone sided with his mod. All three share reponsibility but solo most of all. Doubtless he is pleased with himself.

Polverone - 7-7-2009 at 20:12

Rogue Science and the Hive both formed before I was using the internet for chemistry with any regularity. This site started in 2002, the Hive was born in (I think) 1997 and died in 2004, and I don't recall exactly when Rogue Science started but it was obviously around before Sciencemadness.

Sauron - 7-7-2009 at 20:51

That's a partial reply and perhaps a wee bit evasive.

Was the collapse of the Hive not mainly caused by the hue and cry from mostly Euro members after the invasion of Iraq? Resulting in the defection of the majority of members, who were Americans? I ask because that is how it was explained to me by a former Hive B. on this forum in a PM.

And is this not the basis for your insistance on NO political discussion on this forum?

Were you not a member of roguesci prior to starting SM?

I won't ask you why you did so because it is obvopis that had you been happy with the way RS was going you would not have taken such a step.

It is commendable that you did, the little I saw of RS sucks.

None of us signed a loyalty oath or noncompetition agreement did we?

You run SM as a benign dictator (sole proprietor) amd if someone reaches an impasse with you, there is nothing left for it but to decamp. Is this not what has happened here?

Polverone - 7-7-2009 at 22:14

I didn't severely curtail political and other off-topic discussion that usually leads to arguments until 2007. You can still see the stickied thread ATTENTION ALL ARGUMENTATIVE PEOPLE in Forum Matters.

I've never heard an explanation for the Hive collapse that makes total sense to me. I don't recall the Iraq arguments being worse there than on dozens of other forums that survived. I seem to recall at the time that the immediate explanation was the web hosting company where the Hive lived was changing hands, and the new management did not want to host such a famous, or infamous, site. It seemed plausible at the outset but something like that shouldn't have kept it offline for 5 months, much less 5 years. The other theories I have heard are more conspiracy-oriented and like other conspiracies they may be hard to confirm or debunk until many more years have passed.

Rogue Science and the Hive were the first sites I saw where people competently discussed and practiced chemistry without institutional support. More than competently, I should say -- the Hive had a lot of great chemistry that wasn't really production-oriented. Rogue Science to a lesser extent, but it was still miles beyond what I'd come to expect from reading the occasional mad bomber post in sci.chem on Usenet or old BBS "text philes."

I started Sciencemadness because I wanted to discuss a broader range of chemistry topics, didn't care for a particular Rogue Science moderator (who last I saw was extradited from Canada for murder, not as surprising as it may sound), and didn't want to discuss improvised weapons. I have no ill will toward anyone who wants to leave here and construct a new forum that more closely matches their own ideals.

Sauron - 7-7-2009 at 22:54

The Hive was a private forum and membership was by invitation only, wasn't it? There is a whole thread on this forum about the demise of The Hive and if I look in there I will see who it was with the PM and explanation I repeated above. He never did so in the thread. He claimed to have been a Bee but I cannot say for sure, nor do I recall what handle he used on The Hive or whether he ever gave it here.

That other forums survived the flames about Iraq is hardly an argument. Something brought down The Hive, so it will do till a better explanation comes along. As you say, what has kept it down all these years is even more obscure.

Nicodem - 7-7-2009 at 23:33

You obviously know almost nothing about The Hive and even what you know is only some second hand misinformation. The forum was public and anyone could register, this including absolutely anybody, from kewls, tweakers, chemists to law enforcement officers. The forum was much more heavily moderated than ScienceMadness and no argument among the membership could have ever had any influence on its existence. Destructively oriented members would be banned from posting. For example, members like you would not be treated as liberally as you are treated here. I also think you starting your own forum is an excellent idea.
Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  
I reserve the right to repond ro lies. Let all know that the liar solo is the one who is causing my departure. It was his flaming that caused Nicodem to act, and polverone sided with his mod. All three share reponsibility but solo most of all. Doubtless he is pleased with himself.

Don't create lies about it. It was yourself that caused your pretended departure or whatever this can be called. I only informed you that your incitations to flame wars and constant humiliating of other members will not be tolerated any more. No action whatsoever has been taken, yet. Solo has nothing to do with it. It was purely your decision to involve your political views and pathology in your discourse instead to stick to science. Needless to say, you knew very well that we have a moratorium on political discussions - and for two years you have been unjustly allowed to express your ideological opinions for too many times, constantly expressing symptoms of greed for power and perversely humiliating and insulting our members. Obviously you must have noticed that the atmosphere you created here makes it very unpleasant to discuss amateur chemistry. As a consequence some of the best members left and some refrain from posting as much as they used to. You are intelligent enough to understand that every abuse has its limits.

If you want to be king of Mordor, create your own kingdom and the orcs will follow.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 00:02

Nicodem, you dissemble. You prevaricate. You fucking LIE. You characterise my antagonism toward drug cooks as political and ideological when you know full well they are not. Or then you would have to admit that your own bias in favor of ullucut drugs is just as "ideological" and "political" - or else just as not. You can't say one without the other withour being the nakedest of hypocrits - not that that has ever stopped you before.

The one who told me The Hive was member by invitation was your pal Orgie (Organikum) so take it up with him.

Many ANTI-DRUG members have left and more refrain from posting not because of me obviously but because you seek to create a haven for cooks. As long as they meet certain minimal standards of competence. I say a competent drug cook is a lot more dangerous than a hopeless wannabe cook. You know drug cookery is not AMATEUR ANYTHING it is FOR MONEY yet you seek to coddle and cradle it here. You so do despite the fact that it is KILLING amateur chemistry the very thing this forum is supposed to support.

Shame on you, Nicodem, you are the worst thing that has happened to this forum and making you a mod the worst move polverone ever made.

I expect you will censor me or close this thread before long, look at the thread views, it's a bully pulpit as TR would say. Show everyone what you are made ofm Nicodem. Josef Giebbels would have been proud of you, Orwell would have named you Minister of Truth.

Just remember, the next timr you crap on a good member got no good trason, or for petty animus or your own bias. a thousand people who read this thread will be watching and they will remember my words and they will see you for what you are.

[Edited on 8-7-2009 by Sauron]

watson.fawkes - 8-7-2009 at 04:52

Quote: Originally posted by crazyboy  
You sure do a lot of posting for someone leaving for the second time...
I have to say, this whole exchange reminds me of that old Bugs Bunny cartoon: "Shut up shuttin' up!".

hissingnoise - 8-7-2009 at 05:25

It's interesting, it's informing and at times it sounds like schoolgirls squabbling. . .
Sauron, you seem bent on elevating trivia; what's gotten into you?---this is close to ordinary pettiness!

Polverone - 8-7-2009 at 09:36

A reminder: I imposed a policy of discouraging lazy or ignorant drug seekers and pyro enthusiasts who just want spoon-feeding before Nicodem was a moderator. There's a softer policy in place of discouraging laziness in general, but it's especially important to discourage laziness when it comes to topics related to drugs and energetic materials, since thrill-seekers far outnumber (e.g.) lazy young chemists who are seeking an easy route to fruity esters or giant crystals. We can tolerate a few of the latter, given their rarity, but this forum would quickly become unmanageable if it were known as a place that coddles lazy psychonauts or pyromaniacs.

It is my own policy, and one that I am unlikely to change, that anyone who wants to discuss chemistry can do so here as long as they use the language of chemistry, show that they aren't just looking to be spoonfed synthetic "recipes," and don't explicitly or implicitly drag legalities into technical discussions. That is why members can discuss the synthesis of TNT, ephedrine, and VX alike. This liberal discussion policy almost certainly would not fly in Germany, probably not in Australia either, but fortunately the United States still has reasonably robust speech protections and both I and the server that runs Sciencemadness are located there.

I realize that not everybody is comfortable with this policy. I have received many suggestions over the years that I should ban discussion that could enable the production of propellants, explosives, poisons, or psychoactive drugs. I have tried to mitigate the worst tendencies of those discussions while preserving the freedom to discuss the chemistry. If a topic is fit to discuss in peer reviewed literature I think it is also fit to discuss here, provided that you communicate like a scientist and not a clandestine entrepreneur or mad bomber.

12AX7 - 8-7-2009 at 10:56

Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
Quote: Originally posted by crazyboy  
You sure do a lot of posting for someone leaving for the second time...
I have to say, this whole exchange reminds me of that old Bugs Bunny cartoon: "Shut up shuttin' up!".


Or Everybody Loves Raymond, "The Goodbye Tour".

chloric1 - 8-7-2009 at 12:03

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  
You run SM as a benign dictator (sole proprietor) amd if someone reaches an impasse with you, there is nothing left for it but to decamp. Is this not what has happened here?


Sauron, you are really sinking to a new low. I distinctly remember when Polverone had to intervene in heated topics. As I recall it was about the time of your debut at sciencemadness.

I looked past your atagonist disposition simply based on your generousity in sharing references and expertise in phosphorus and organic chemistry. But now, you are just bitter and onery. Even if you are the sole chem prodigy of Thailand, you, my friend, are unapproachable and unreasonable. Your consististant history of flaming clearly displays your arrogance and your complete disregard for your fellow man.

In closing, I wish you luck in your endeavors.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 14:05

Dope cooks have np regard for their fellow man. They are happy to poison them.

I rejoice in the unveiling of my enemies. In most cases, no surprise.

Polverone, you have merely restated your diffident and self-defeating policies. Worse, you set the fox to guard the henhouse. The pattern of Nicodem's selective enforcement is clear.

I have come to realize that polverone's mom-policies are by design. He wants to appear to be ant-cook without really purging this community of the dope cooks. The notion that cooks who can talk the talk and cite references are acceptable, is absurd and reprehensible. Polverone is therefore part of the problem, not part of the solution.

This issue will not disappear with me. It will be back, and ultimately it will scatter this forum to the winds. Amateur chemists are an endangered species because of the cooks. Already home labs are presumed to be drug labs and chemical availability to amateurs is dwingling. All because of the blind avarice of the cooks. You don't like the message? Sure, kill the messenger. The message will remain. You can't kill the truth.

St. Nicodemus, what a joke. I'll take a Tolkein character over an apocryphal book of the Bible anytime. As another member said in the Worst Books thread: myths of tribal nomads. In the case of Nicodemus ben Gurion, a fake book penned in the Middle Ages a millenium after his death. Got the Holy Grail, Nickie? Or did you pluck the name out of the Talmud?

[Edited on 8-7-2009 by Sauron]

solo - 8-7-2009 at 14:54

........................does you battery ever run out and i don't mean your energizer but your insults and unkind remarks for those that assisted you one time or another, now that you realize that not everyone shares your philosophy and as you should realize, that's a personal thing, but you choose to try to infect others with your ideas and myopic view of personal rights....why not just leave and leave what remains of your good deeds speak for themselves ......no, you can't fix it, work on you karma before it comes back at you and devours you, as you've been seeding very bad vibes and blaming others for you lack of self control.........solo

entropy51 - 8-7-2009 at 15:03

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  


Already home labs are presumed to be drug labs and chemical availability to amateurs is dwingling. All because of the blind avarice of the cooks. You don't like the message? Sure, kill the messenger. The message will remain. You can't kill the truth.

[Edited on 8-7-2009 by Sauron]


And therein resides more than a little truth. It is the elephant in the room on this forum.

Rosco Bodine expressed it rather well back in 2004:

Damn , is this place turning into a dope cookers convention ?

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=pri...

[Edited on 8-7-2009 by entropy51]

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 15:14

Solo

Until you arrived in this thread to spread lies I was content to remain silent, so you have no one else to blame.

What's with the karma and vibes crap, you are sounding like some old beaner hippie, or a bad imitation of Cheech. Sure, it's your personal right to be a criminal. Just look at all the wonderful things this has done for Mexico. Soon your country will sink below Burma in prestige. Personal freedom, my ass.

Entropy

You know thw answer to your question, it is therefore rhetorical is it not?

Many say this privately. Thanks fopr doing so publicly.

[Edited on 8-7-2009 by Sauron]

benzylchloride1 - 8-7-2009 at 15:14

Drug cooks are destroying amateur chemistry. I have been accused of being a drug cook by a professor that I once took a class from. I merely asked this professor if I could obtain some empty 4L solvent bottles for my HPLC system. He told me that I was going to be thrown in jail because amateur chemistry in his opinion is totally illegal. This professor made his students sign an agreement that they would not buy glassware for personal experiments. Posts on organic chemicals that are not in any way drug related are neglected in the organic chemistry forum. Topics such as amphetamine and ketamine synthesis turn many people off to this forum. Most people cannot buy phosphorous, iodine, and other useful chemicals because a few low life tweekers use these chemicals to make some thing to get a high off of. Discussion that is directly drug related, such as amphetamine synthesis should be barred from this board. There are other forums on the web for this discussion. I am not saying that we should ban talk on so called precursors like benzaldehyde and other list 1 chemicals, as these chemicals are useful for many non durg related synthesises. As Sauron stated, we are losing members because of the large amount of discussion about drugs.

Sedit - 8-7-2009 at 15:18

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  

Damn , is this place turning into a dope cookers convention ?

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=pri...

[Edited on 8-7-2009 by entropy51]


Here in lies the problem with amature chemistry and the causes do not lie in the hands of drug cooks but in the hands of people that believe a chemical has one use and one use only... to make drugs, Why because some use it to make drugs that must be what its for. Now no one should have this chemical because if they do they must be making drugs right.

Im sorry but I feel that people with this mind set are far more detrimental to our hobby then drug cooks ever could be. This mindset is whats spreading the propaganda that constantly has our hobby under scrutiny. If we can not get rid of this mindset in our own community how do we expect non chemist to understand this?

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 15:32

sedit

To the extent that your putative mind set exists at all, it arose because of the cooks and certainly could not have existed before there were drug cooks. So cooks remain the cause.

I dispute your theory on its face.

benzylchloride

Bravissimo!

In 1919 Michael Collins, only a week out of an English jail after the 1916 Easter Rising, tols a crown of Irish supporters:

The RIC want to shut me up, jail me, conscript me, kill me, who knows? If they shut me up, who will take my place>"

Every hand in the crowd was raised.

Collins went on to be architect of the old IRA and commander of the Free State Army till his assassination 4 years later by followers of Eamon de Valera.

Soon Polverone or Nicodem, two sides of the same coin, will shut me up.

WHO WILL TAKE MY PLACE?

[Edited on 8-7-2009 by Sauron]

entropy51 - 8-7-2009 at 15:33

Quote: Originally posted by benzylchloride1  
Posts on organic chemicals that are not in any way drug related are neglected in the organic chemistry forum. Topics such as amphetamine and ketamine synthesis turn many people off to this forum. Most people cannot buy phosphorous, iodine, and other useful chemicals because a few low life tweekers use these chemicals to make some thing to get a high off of. Discussion that is directly drug related, such as amphetamine synthesis should be barred from this board. There are other forums on the web for this discussion. I am not saying that we should ban talk on so called precursors like benzaldehyde and other list 1 chemicals, as these chemicals are useful for many non durg related synthesises. As Sauron stated, we are losing members because of the large amount of discussion about drugs.


Someone once said "Professional chemists discuss illegal drugs about as often as kindergarten teachers discuss child pornography - never."

Forum members as old as Sauron and myself can remember the days when the local pharmacist would sell us any chemical we needed. We could even order from the major lab suppliers. We can also remember the 1970's and 80's when the rise of drug abuse paralleled the disappearance of reagents and glassware. It came long before the war on terror. That is no coincidence.

[Edited on 8-7-2009 by entropy51]

Sedit - 8-7-2009 at 15:40

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  
To the extent that your putative mind set exists at all, it arose because of the cooks and certainly could not have existed before there were drug cooks. So cooks remain the cause.

I dispute your theory on its face.


This in its essence is true but understand that if it was not 'cooks' it would be bombs and if not bombs it would be nerve gas. No matter, paranoia will run rampant with the powers that be because people have always feared powers that they don't understand. If something in anyway shape or form can be made into something dangerous and lawmakers them self do not understand it then it must be made illegal.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 15:56

Sedit

The suppression of amateur chemistry/home labs is about 95% drugs driven, 3% explosives and the baseline noise CW.

You must have missed what I said upthread about an ideal forum that bans all three topics.

entropy51 - 8-7-2009 at 15:57

Sedit said "This in its essence is true but understand that if it was not 'cooks' it would be bombs and if not bombs it would be nerve gas."

But my good friend Sedit, it IS cooks! That's how we got here. That's why we have to go skulking around the hardware stores reading labels and trying to find simple chemicals OTC. You're too young to remember, but time was I just gave the pharmacist a list and he ordered it. Apparently some European members can still do that. Why? Because they don't have the drug problem that the US does.

Sedit - 8-7-2009 at 16:10

Possibly but I still place blame more on the DEA more then the cooks. You have not seen ammonia nitrate baned by the DOD because its been used to bomb places such as the first WTC bombings and such because there not firing off the guns half cocked like other agencys may be. If drugs where ever leglized do you feel that they would lift the restrictions on the chemicals because I don't. That would cut into the profit and paychecks they make from cooks just as it does now.

Either way these are forms of opinions that are like religion and no amount of discussion would change your mind nor mind for that matter so its more then likely best to just leave it along and let folks keep the individual opinions on the matter.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 16:15

Who says the EU does not have a drug problem?

They just respond to it differently.

Remember the 600 simultaneous raids in 4 nations last year or was it early this year? One of our members was raided. In Germany.

Polverone - 8-7-2009 at 16:24

Quote: Originally posted by benzylchloride1  
Drug cooks are destroying amateur chemistry. I have been accused of being a drug cook by a professor that I once took a class from. I merely asked this professor if I could obtain some empty 4L solvent bottles for my HPLC system. He told me that I was going to be thrown in jail because amateur chemistry in his opinion is totally illegal. This professor made his students sign an agreement that they would not buy glassware for personal experiments. Posts on organic chemicals that are not in any way drug related are neglected in the organic chemistry forum. Topics such as amphetamine and ketamine synthesis turn many people off to this forum. Most people cannot buy phosphorous, iodine, and other useful chemicals because a few low life tweekers use these chemicals to make some thing to get a high off of. Discussion that is directly drug related, such as amphetamine synthesis should be barred from this board. There are other forums on the web for this discussion. I am not saying that we should ban talk on so called precursors like benzaldehyde and other list 1 chemicals, as these chemicals are useful for many non durg related synthesises. As Sauron stated, we are losing members because of the large amount of discussion about drugs.


We already have rules against "cooking" threads, SWIM-talk and associated slang, the preparation of common street drugs, and hinting that you will use some chemical or other for illicit purposes later. The rules have evolved over time so there are some older threads still open that explicitly mention drugs that are controlled in most of the world. If people bump those and continue to discuss drug production, report them. The threads will be cleaned up and/or closed as appropriate. I will not censor discussion of other chemistry that could somehow be useful to drug discussion (as this describes a huge swath of topics).

I should go a step further and say that while I won't permit street drug production discussion, neither will I permit constant attacks on members whose interests include or are suspected to include drug chemistry. Posts should be reported if they break the rules. If no rules are broken but you suspect a member's intentions, you're under no obligation to help them but you are obligated to remain civil.



If you do leave for a new forum with stricter rules I hope you print out and laminate your new member registration. That way if you are ever under suspicion by professors, police, or chemical vendors you can show them the copy and they will understand that you should be treated as a curious human being, presumed innocent. This will make your life easier and free up resources that should be devoted to all those other people who need a babysitter until they've died of old age.

If only I had conducted a thorough hunt for lawbreakers here back in 2003, I would be able to find a vendor who would sell me red phosphorus today :( They might initially say "we won't sell phosphorus to individuals, because thousands of tweakers would leave the matchbook industry in the lurch during a recession." I could respond "No, I run a forum of chemists with very strict rules against street drugs and allied chemistry. You're not even allowed to discuss peptide coupling without signing a loyalty oath denouncing tryptamines." Then they'd see the light and ship me 5 kilos as soon as the check cleared.

[Edited on 7-9-2009 by Polverone]

chemoleo - 8-7-2009 at 16:26

We discuss the preparation of phosphorus, nitroglycerin, copper sulfate, mercury, ricin, chlorate, nitrostyrenes, sodium metal, and cyanide like any other topic.
The point is, this is chemistry. If we restrict one, because of its potential abuse, what is to follow?
A knife, a gun, hell a simple rock, when placed hard on someone's head, can be deadly. None are banned, at least in the US.
Here, a platform is provided for the discussion of chemistry.
The abuse potential is there, undoubtedly. But discussing it doesn't make it a crime. Like a gun (rocket, bioweapon, etc) doesn't kill, but the person.

Personally, I find it fascinating how ricin works. Or a nuclear or thermonuclear weapon. Or the Influenza virus. Or, the formation of copper sulfate crystals from a saturated solution. Or even LSD. Doesn't mean my interest incriminates me, and I suspect many people think along similar lines here. It doesn't mean that we are all set out to commit genocide through WMDs, intoxicate our neighbourhood with drugs we produced, or drown people in copper sulfate solution.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 16:39

No, sedit, I would rather infect others (as solo put it) with the truth.

I am almost 60 and I have lived through the changes in society, I gather you are a lot younger. I remember a time before DEA and why DEA was created. The DEA was not created to fight drug cooks, those are by and large local problems, few are important enough to warrant federal attention. The DEA initially was focused on Mexican brown heroin. They Bobby Vesco taught some guys in Medellin a thing or two and the cocaine problem emerged, it was some years before DEA retooled to fight that. Meth as a major problem is still more recent.

And the DOD has nothing to do with regulating explosives.

AN is a major fertilizer, and an important blasting agent in miningm quarrying and civil engineering, it is not going to be banned. It IS regulated. DOJ ATFE.

entropy51 - 8-7-2009 at 16:47

Polverone,

I appreciate your attitude toward free speech. I really do. I was marching in protests against war and in favor of free speech before your parents started dating.

But things crossed a line around here a long time ago, see my quote from Rosco Bodine (from 5 years ago) above.

Discussion is one thing, but just a few days ago someone was offering to sell 1/2 kilo of 2,5-dimethoxybenzaldehyde in this thread https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=12...

I suspect that you know as well as I do that this material is a precursor to a Schedule I controlled substance and has few other uses. It's qualitatively different from benzaldehyde and formamide. He wasn't discussing a potential synthesis of an interesting compound, but was selling the crap. Why wasn't that thread shut down? It sure wasn't theoretical discussions of mechanisms, was it?

Frankly, I'm having trouble deciding if this is a historically large case of mass denial, or a very cunning sting operation. How better to ferret out the cooks than to hold an open forum on the internet where discussions of drug syntheses are openly allowed? We'll even supply you the latest references!

As I said abovethread, professional chemists might discuss the Leuckart reaction, but it's never in the context of amination of phenylpropanone.

I say this respectfully, since I very much appreciate this forum, but will you get a clue young man?

Polverone - 8-7-2009 at 16:55

I just remembered something pretty funny. A couple of years ago Sauron posted in this thread about the tremendous expense and effort he was going to in order to prepare bremelanotide. At the time it was being discussed as a potential wonder drug for increasing human libido. If the drug had panned out as its commercial developers hoped it no doubt would have become the most profitable recreational drug discovered in the last century, leaving methamphetamine and viagra alike in the dust.

So I guess the object lesson is that it's intellectually stimulating and perfectly respectable to manufacture recreational drugs as long as they aren't widely known or already scheduled. Better to advance the state of the art than to play with yesterday's toys -- can't say I disagree with that. But it is a little unfair to jump on the people who can't afford $40,000 worth of peptide gear and are stuck with toys made from benzyl cyanide and other dinosaurs.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 16:59

chemoleo, the CW problem is pretty self limiting because anyone who makes such agents DIES. Comprende?

The Aum in Japam s[ent $11 Million on their lab, still has accidents, and in the end managed to kill 12 people. They could have paid 12 people a million each to suicide and sabed all the bother.

We discarded ricin as a weapom after WWII. The KGB umbrella gun was used on 5 people and killed only 2 of them, Georgi Markov being the famous victim.

Epics of failure.

Banning such topics on ONE forum does not preclude discussion on another forum, but it would make life a lot easier for all concerned on that one forum. No kewls, no idiotd, no mad bombers. No BlueTooth, no ItalianXPchemist, no TheMadMen.

Admin would still be able to allow things like tetrazoles at his sole discretion. I could give lots of examples but polverone isn't having any so why bother? SM is a lost cause. Time to seek greener pastures.

DJF90 - 8-7-2009 at 17:00

There are threads here that are borderline. There are threads that are just plain wrong. The titles of these two say it all:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1102
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=6531

I feel that even in my short time so far at sciencemadness there has been a noticable increase in the number of drug-orientated threads created. And I feel helpless because I've seen so many idiots on here that are RUINING our right to experiment, causing DEFAMATION of our hobby, and getting useful chemicals BANNED for us. Not only that, but sources that may have sold to individuals previously now may not - or may do so in a very restricted fashion. I hate the idea of our hobby being made any harder, but the passive attitute towards some members/threads/topics here is doing just that.

Polverone - 8-7-2009 at 17:08

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Polverone,

I appreciate your attitude toward free speech. I really do. I was marching in protests against war and in favor of free speech before your parents started dating.

But things crossed a line around here a long time ago, see my quote from Rosco Bodine (from 5 years ago) above.

Discussion is one thing, but just a few days ago someone was offering to sell 1/2 kilo of 2,5-dimethoxybenzaldehyde in this thread https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=12...

I suspect that you know as well as I do that this material is a precursor to a Schedule I controlled substance and has few other uses. It's qualitatively different from benzaldehyde and formamide. He wasn't discussing a potential synthesis of an interesting compound, but was selling the crap. Why wasn't that thread shut down? It sure wasn't theoretical discussions of mechanisms, was it?

I think you will find proportionally much less drug discussion in this forum during the last year than in 2004, even though some people have the erroneous impression that SM is in some sort of drug-hazed delcine. That is because the rules have changed in 5 years and a lot of things that were allowed before have been stopped.

As for the dimethoxybenzaldehyde sale, it was left open because it doesn't violate any of the rules. We have two rules about sales here: nothing that is illegal to buy or sell in the US can be offered for sale, and "buyer beware." The benzaldehyde does have one obvious drug application, but it's not an immediate drug precursor nor even on the DEA's List I. I try to set rules and then enforce them as consistently as I can. I realize I fall short of the ideal. But shutting the 2,5 DMB sale thread when it violated no established rules seemed unfair to me. "I can't personally think of a nondrug use" doesn't seem like a fair way to judge chemicals' status, especially when (as in this case) actual law enforcement agencies apparently regard it as of less concern than iodine crystals or methylamine.

Edit: I just searched Google Scholar for "2,5 dimethoxybenzaldehyde" and excluded any result containing the word "drug" or "2-CB." There were still hundreds of hits. I knew my passing familiarity with this compound wasn't the alpha and omega of its uses.

[Edited on 7-9-2009 by Polverone]

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 17:17

Polverone

1. Bremelanotide is not illegal

2. I am not interested in selling it. Am MD friend asked me to make it.

3. I spent more than $50,000 om Waters HPLC gear analytical and prep. The main set is a PrepLC5000 quad pump and controller 150 ml/min for 10 ml samples. Rheodyne injector. Mo;;emium32 software control via IEEE-488 bus. I have 486 and 490E UV detectors, 2 of former and 5 of latter.
I bought the PrepLC from HiTechTrader in NJ and most of the rest from a couple of dealers in Michigan or off LabX. Also a 715 autosampler, a pair of fraction collectors, 4 Model 600E analytical quad pumps. A few simple isocratic pumps, etc, Lots of manuals. Amd yes all for AMATEUR EXPERIMENTALISM and no fucking drug cookery. Though at the moment I wish I has my $50 thou back. I chose Waters partly because it is 220V 50 Hz capablee.

What does making an unregulated peptide have to do eith drug cookery? You might as well argue that aspirin is the moral equivalent of heroin. (Both Bayet anyway.)

And I have yet to make any, the cash cow is out of milk now.

Now have I used my HPLS for anything else. I did show it to SSgtHazMat who is back in USA from 2 years in Iraq. Ask him.

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

Polverone - 8-7-2009 at 17:17

Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
There are threads here that are borderline. There are threads that are just plain wrong. The titles of these two say it all:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1102
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=6531

I feel that even in my short time so far at sciencemadness there has been a noticable increase in the number of drug-orientated threads created. And I feel helpless because I've seen so many idiots on here that are RUINING our right to experiment, causing DEFAMATION of our hobby, and getting useful chemicals BANNED for us. Not only that, but sources that may have sold to individuals previously now may not - or may do so in a very restricted fashion. I hate the idea of our hobby being made any harder, but the passive attitute towards some members/threads/topics here is doing just that.


An increase in new drug oriented threads since you joined? Maybe you didn't read them carefully but the threads you linked were both started more than a year before you joined. Both threads have been active in the past year but nothing posted recently in either seems very production-oriented except perhaps one message by Sandmeyer.

Please do use the report button if you think a post has crossed a line. The moderators who receive your report may not always agree. I guarantee that we do not read every post in every thread, so we rely on people actually reporting objectionable messages.

DJF90 - 8-7-2009 at 17:19

We all know that the DEA is misguided. I'm suprised they havent banned stuffed animals seeing as they have "potential use" to smuggle drugs from one place to another. We however have our own intuition. What other uses - besides the synthesis of the aforementioned compound - can 2,5-dimethoxybenzaldehyde have to an amateur chemist, in your own personal opinion? I'm interested should you come up with anything, but I fear that is not the case.

EDIT: Polverone - I did not intend that the threads mentioned in my previous post were created since I joined - merely that I think the title instantly should cause the closure of these threads. If the content is acceptable then the threads should at least be renamed to something more "scientific"

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by DJF90]

entropy51 - 8-7-2009 at 17:29

Polverone said " Maybe you didn't read them carefully but the threads you linked were both started more than a year before you joined. Both threads have been active in the past year but nothing posted recently in either seems very production-oriented except perhaps one message by Sandmeyer."

The thread titles contain "amphetamines" and "ketamine".

I don't think a Google of either of those terms should home in on an amateur chemistry forum. Unless said forum is really a sting.

"I can't personally think of a nondrug use" doesn't seem like a fair way to judge chemicals' status". Still having trouble with this clue concept, are we?

Magpie - 8-7-2009 at 17:42

Polverone's liberal policies are one of the characteristics of this forum that foster its diversity and openness. I don't really want to see more rules and regulations.

I think there is a better way to handle posts that you believe are detrimental to the forum: ridicule and taunting. That way you are giving the poster a chance to defend his post. We should use this technique more often, myself included.

I have made methylamine HCl, benzaldehyde, Ac2O, and probably other common drug precursors. I made these all for the purpose of performing experiments in my 1962 organic lab manual - written before the war on drugs.

So if you think someone is up to illegal activity then challenge him, taunt him, and/or ridicule him. He might just convince you that he's doing something legitimate. If not, he'll probably leave.

Don't get me wrong - I hate drug cookery.

entropy51 - 8-7-2009 at 17:55

Magpie, I think I have that same manual. "Unitized Experiments" by Brewster et al, isnt it? I think you've cited it here; it's one of my favorite books, but it's seen better days. I had it before I knew how to be careful with H2SO4; the clothes I wore in those days fared no better.

MeNH2, benzaldehyde, Ac2O aren't the issue for me. It's phenylpropanone and phenyl-2-bromopropane, etc., the direct precursors. And the routes to go from precursor to finished "product". You will find those here, thinly disguised or not at all disguised.

I'd agree with you that if the cooks were taunted and ridiculed, but my feeling is that they are more likely to be welcomed and supplied with the latest references. And they don't leave.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 17:56

Maggie, I would mever advise the compounds you mentioned from prep discussion, they are all multiuse in the extreme. I am not proposing that we fall on our swords.

Ridicule and ranting I have been doing in such cases for 2.5 years, see what it has gotten me. Micodem says I insult and humiliate members. I say, some deserved it. Some insulted me first. Nicodem does not allow for such distinctions. He has hiw own agenda.

Sedit - 8-7-2009 at 18:00

I could care less.

I learn just as much talking about drug synthesis as I do explosive synthesis and ester synthesis. I feel no need to limit myself in discussion because of a governments attempts to implant the idea that these are devil substances. To each his own I feel. Most opinions based on drug cooks comes from propaganda anyway so why should I change my stance on anything base on 50-90% of lies? Drugs have been a part of society since the beginning of time yet the second we attempt these legislations these the money and power that normaly went back to the society was put into the hands of the ruthless and greedy and im not just talking about those supplying the drugs but those fighting against them as well.

Im with Polerone on this one. If somefolks feel the will to discuss this or even make them for that matter that is there choice and no one twist anyones arm to help them. They are performing operations illegal by current law and will pay dearly in time.

If they made and discussed a brand new psycoactive substance completely different the current drugs would this still be considered drug cooking or experimenting?

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 18:19

As usual, sedit, you miss the point. Banning discussion of illegal drugs, explosives and CW agents has nothing whatsoever to do with any government anything, It is in the interest of the FORUM and eliminates almost all of the major types of undesirables. The impacr on anyone's ability to learn chemistry is NIL.

You need not study mustard gas to learn su;fur chemistry.

You need not learn how to make NG or PETN to learn nitration.

I first read Davis' book more than 40 years ago and there is VERY little in there that teached how to do anything BUT make explosives. In fact it is quite out of date. The dye chemistry books in forum library will teach you a LOT more practical chemistry, including nitration, than Davis.

Learn medicinal chemistry NOT drug cookery.

Read all you want about those topics, I's give you the books, just don't post about the,

Polverone - 8-7-2009 at 18:20

Quote: Originally posted by Sauron  
Polverone

1. Bremelanotide is not illegal

2. I am not interested in selling it. Am MD friend asked me to make it.

3. I spent more than $50,000 om Waters HPLS gear analytical and prep.

What does making an unregulated peptide have to do eith drug cookery? You might as well argue that aspirin is the moral equivalent of heroin. (Both Bayet anyway.)

And I have yet to make any, the cash cow is out of milk now.

Now have I used my HPLS for anything else. I did show it to SSgtHazMat who is back in USA from 2 years in Iraq. Ask him.


You were/are trying to make a recreational drug for human consumption, albeit not for profit and not in violation of extant laws. Even now there are discussions on other forums about producing novel unscheduled recreational drugs for human consumption. Shall I encourage discussion of brand new recreational compounds here up until the DEA emergency schedules them, then slam the door shut once they're formally outlawed?

I was joking a bit in my previous post because I find you bewildering and contradictory in your statements and behavior toward legalities and drug chemistry. You invest tremendous resources in producing a recreational drug for personal sharing and intellectual challenge, while thinking every other amateur making recreational drugs must be at it for profit. You don't seem particularly concerned about respecting inconvenient laws, as you have posted many times about circumventing the Thailand MOD's chemical restrictions. You have even written:
Quote:

You would likely be surprised at my personal viewpoint regarding the overall solution to the drug problem.

But first let me redict to one point: drugs are not expensive because of enforcement.

For many years we have been ratcheting UP enforcement, without so much as a pause. We are in the fourth or fifth decade of the "war on drugs" and we are coming up on the centennial of the Harrison Act.

Yet just as remorselessly every year the drug supply gets bigger and the price goes DOWN not up.

Clearly this is a failure. Just as clearly the price is related only to the supply and enforcement/interdiction is immaterial.

So faced with the totality of failure the futility of continuing on present course is obvious. It is obvious to conservative replublicans as well; William F Buckley now advocates decriminalization. His concerns and mine are erosion of civil liberties and the rise of a police state, the absurd costs of incarceration, the fact that 90% of our prison inmates are in for drug crimes, etc.

I doubt that he would go as far as I would. I would as the govt, contract out manuf of all "abuse" drugs to the pharm industry on usual lowest bidder basis, and make such drugs available at pharmacies on demand without prescription.


You don't seem to be a Puritan, or a great respector of law for law's sake, and you even planned to manufacture your own recreational drug to satisfy some curiosity and/or do a favor for your doctor friend. So I don't understand if I am reading Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde when you talk about your personal drug production plans and opposition to prohibition and then denounce drug chemists as the killers of amateur chemistry. For sure a genuine human aphrodesiac would be more habit-forming than something like LSD, so your attitudes don't even seem based on habituation risk. Your above remarks about the futility of prohibition show that you know it is a enterprise now running on its own schedule, practically immune to criticism or meaningful policy reform.

A purge/prohibition of possible drug topics isn't going to fix the legal and social distrust we face any more than changing the forum's logo to a pink ribbon is going to cure breast cancer. It would be an insignificant symbolic gesture in support of a legal and social order that I do not even personally approve, and from your previous remarks I don't see how you approve or support it either. I would rather benefit from the mutual overlap of interests when an amateur -- any amateur -- writes about a new way to produce phosphorus or grignard reagents that's well suited to the home lab. If I run them off because I suspect that knowledge will be used to produce drugs, I lose out on learning opportunities and don't gain any new concessions from vendors, governments, or the general public that can compensate for the loss.

I realize that I do lose out on learning from members who are uncomfortable with drug discussion and may be driven elsewhere if I don't purge discussion even more than I have already done. I can't please everyone. If a new robust home chemistry forum starts, one more strictly concerned with propriety and legality, it may be to everyone's benefit if we all self segregate according to our views (apart from the inconvenience of following multiple forums).

Edit: I should add that we haven't had a post about producing phenyl-2-propanone in any but the vaguest terms in a year.

There was recently a thread about phenyl-2-bromopropane that Sauron actually contributed in. So even the people leading the hue and cry against drug chemistry apparently can't reach consensus on what should be banned. My suspicion is that following this path you eventually end up with a forum as bland and little-used as Citizen Chemist on chemicalforums.com (which to its credit has plenty of good discussion in the other subforums).

[Edited on 7-9-2009 by Polverone]

Rosco Bodine - 8-7-2009 at 18:32

@entropy351 The reason for my remark posing that question I asked 5 years ago is because at the time
there was a flurry of discussion posts which seemed to have a recognizable signature interest and at that time
the Hive was a better resource for such discussion, so
I was hoping those having such interests would take the hint.
@Sedit I have been around awhile, and you really don't know what is my mentality or motives or interests, so
you shouldn't even begin to try to profile me or to psychoanalyze me, for posing a rhetorical question as I did during a time when there was a noticeable trend
to posts which was looking like Hive activity more than
the usual SM fare. Now sure riiiiiight was it ignorant
supposition and bias for me to suppose that the topic
of that thread, when there are so many better ways
of getting benzaldehyde, was more probably a topic
that was a Hive import to SM, or more probably a chemical salvage request for a freight quantity of somebody having an expiration dated railroad car full of old almond oil on which they desired to cut their loss.
You tell me, with a straight face.

entropy51 - 8-7-2009 at 18:33

Polverone,

You seem to be confusing drug development and dope cookery.

Or maybe confusing "investigational drug" and "recreational drug", or even "illicit drug", or "illegal drug".

You are quite good at defending your policies, but this dog won't hunt.:P

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 18:52

You use the phrase "recreational drug" over and over. The usual meaning of recreational ILLEGAL drug isn't it?

Your argument turns on equating an investigational pharmaceutical pm final throes of FDA approval with designer street drugs that you say are not yet illegal. Actually that depends on the specific structure and jurisdiction, so it is not a given. I see a HUGE difference between such and bremelanotide which after all is not a stimulant, not a hallucinogen, not an opiate or barbiturate or even analgesic. It is a minor analog of a human hormone that controls skin pignebtation (MSHa) produced in the human pituitary, it's not even a crude cGMP inhibitor like Viagra. It acts directly on the human libido. Quite unique.

And I spent that $50K so the stuff will be PURE, as pure as what comes out of Palatine. Else I will not take it and neither will the doc.

Does any drug cook you ever heard of do that?

No, sorry, your argument is false. Calling PT-141 a recreational drug is inaccurate and I think uou know it. Equating it to designer street drugs is absurd and again you know it. The FDA is not about to approve those. Amd you know it as well. You are desperate and you are being disingenuous.

Rosco Bodine - 8-7-2009 at 19:00

When young pups venture into the dark forest where the big dogs eat, sometimes they get their tails nipped,
or maybe get their ass chewed thoroughly.....
live, laugh, learn :D

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 19:09

Polverone

As to the phenyl-2-bromopropane thread, that is chemrox's thread. Chemrox is a former student of Zvi Rappaport at UC Berkeley, a lontime Catholic monk and a former professional medicinal chemist now a geologist in your own state. We have had lengthy discussions and I am quite satisfoed that he is far from being any sort of meth cook. Were this not the case I would not be his friend and would never have posted in that thread. Why don't you ask him what he is about? He respects you. He will tell you the truth.

Therer are often dual use, multi use exceptions. Some require sound judgement and knowledge of the chemist concerned. If it had been almost abtone else I wouls guess drug cook, too.

Polverone - 8-7-2009 at 19:36

I meant recreational drug in a strict sense, not colloquially. A drug that enhances sexual experiences is going to be widely used for fun, whether or not it's formally approved only for those with sexual dysfunction. See how much Viagra is sold outside of approved medical channels. Your actions say you're not opposed to Better Living Through Chemistry, your words say you don't support drug prohibition, you have to know that changing how amateur chemists talk online won't change laws for the better... It doesn't add up to any sort of coherent picture for me.

Sauron - 8-7-2009 at 20:44

I expect that bremelanoride will be knocked off just like sild and now tamiflu, in placebo, counterfeit and analog forms, mainly by the Indians and Chinese. I also know that there is no way to get in on that even if I wanted to - which I do NOT. I turned down a proposal to make bulk sild a few years ago for $2000/Kg because I didn't want to work that hard (they wanted quite a few Kg a month) to make someone else rich. Besides, Pfizer's process emgineer in Cork at that time on their sild line was a friend and I did not want to put him in an awkward spot.

I also passed on a project to make triacetyluridine, importing bulk uridine from China and acetylating with Ac2O catalyzed by DMAP. Then cleanup with size exclusion chromatography. I would have had to make my own Ac2O as it os a no-no here due to the H biz aceoss the borthern borders. And the Thai FDA (called Aw Yaw gere) may have been bloodsuckers. So I said no.

TAU is not recreational, a friend in the US patent office (examiner) tipped me off this was going to be avery hot anticancer drug, As far as I know he was wrong. I am glas I stayed away.

I am no puritan abd I am a scofflaw, the Thais are a nation of such. Ask the DEA. During the Japamese occupation the Japs said Thailand was a country of 40 million thieves. When the first OSS team parachuted in to aid the resistance, the Thais who met them killed them for the gold bullion they had. The next team went in with guns ready and a bad attitude.

But I am retired and have no interest in hinky business deals. I live quietly and have enough money.

I can't be blamed if you are puzzled. Mr Psychologist Nicodem also finds me opaque. Perhaps it was not rational to spend that money on HPLC - for sure Mrs Sauron would absolutely agree. But maybe I will find some use, or sell it off on labX' Or consign to a dealer.



[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sauron]

benzylchloride1 - 8-7-2009 at 21:01

Medicinal chemistry is a fascinating field. We need to have more discussion on synthesis of medicines that fix problems such as pennicillin instead of a new way of making something like methamphetamine. The synthesis of oseltamivir (Tamiflu) is an interesting one; starting with shikimic acid which has 5 stereocenters and converting it to finished product is a feat of asymmetric synthesis. Ths synthesis of amphetamines has little to offer to the amateur beside a way of getting high or making a buck. The Wang Hendrickson synthesis was fascinating to me because of the ring formation involved. I am reluctant to post in the methylamine hydrochloride thread because I would be aiding the drug cooks. I recently synthesized methylamine hydrochloride to use it to produce a nitrosomethylaminoketone that is used to produce diazomethane.
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