Sciencemadness Discussion Board - potassium permanganate in Canada

potassium permanganate in Canada

mr.crow - 22-10-2009 at 20:44

Heres a question that has been bugging me. If you look at the restricted precursors in Canada, potassium permanganate is on the list!

Now a quick look at rhodium reveals that it is used to purify cocaine in South America. So its illegal to export a 50kg sack to Colombia, but what about buying or owning a small amount?

JohnWW - 23-10-2009 at 00:48

If Canada's red-coated Gestapo, the Royal Canadian Mounted Pigs, are going to classify KMnO4 as a "restricted precursor", they would have to also ban all Mn compounds, which is practically impossible! Mn is a fairly common metal, most often found in nature as pyrolusite, MnO2, found in black masses in certain areas of basaltic eruptions (there is a deposit near where I live, although too small to be economical to mine), and in metalliferous nodules deposited on deep ocean floors; the stuff is used widely as a support medium in "dry cell" batteries, from which it can be extracted. Mn is widely used to make manganese steel, known for its tensile properties; and MnSO4 is used as an analytical reagent e.g. in aqueous dissolved oxygen analysis.

Lower-valent Mn compounds can be fairly easily converted to permanganate by dissolution to give anionic species with excess KOH, which can then be electrolytically oxidized; or reacted with plumbate (IV) or bismuthate(V); or solid MnO2 can be fused with a mixture of KNO3 and KOH.

Besides, for purifications involving oxidation, there are several other reagents that can be made to substitute for permanganate, depending on the situation, particularly: OsO4 (rather too expensive), chromate or dichromate(VI), ferrate(VI), plumbate(IV), chlorate(V), perchlorate(VII), periodate(VII), perxenate(VIII) (rather too expensive), H2O2, O3, hypochlorite, Cl2, and persulfate. All these would also have to be banned, along with electrolytic cells. They might as well try to ban EVERYTHING, including even hematite, Fe2O3 (a mineral of very wide occurrence, especially in Australia), because it can be used to make ferrate(VI), the substitute that most closely resembles permanganate.

entropy51 - 23-10-2009 at 05:28

Quote:

They might as well try to ban EVERYTHING

John, is KMnO4 really banned in Canada or elsewhere? I am skeptical of that. Why don't you see what the Canadian law really says about KMnO4 instead of getting your knickers in a twist over every perceived persecution by the devil bureacrats.

KMnO4 is also Listed in the United States, but they sell it in one, two, or six pound containers in the local hardware stores. Completely OTC, no questions asked, no ID required. That is hardly banned.

12AX7 - 23-10-2009 at 08:41

John, it looks like you took your dollarsign meds today, but neglected the Gestapo meds.

Sedit - 23-10-2009 at 13:20

Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW

If Canada's red-coated Gestapo, the Royal Canadian Mounted Pigs, are going to classify KMnO4 as a "restricted precursor", they would have to also ban all Mn compounds, which is practically impossible! Mn is a fairly common metal, most often found in nature as pyrolusite, MnO2, found in black masses in certain areas of basaltic eruptions (there is a deposit near where I live, although too small to be economical to mine), and in metalliferous nodules deposited on deep ocean floors; the stuff is used widely as a support medium in "dry cell" batteries, from which it can be extracted. Mn is widely used to make manganese steel, known for its tensile properties; and MnSO4 is used as an analytical reagent e.g. in aqueous dissolved oxygen analysis.

Lower-valent Mn compounds can be fairly easily converted to permanganate by dissolution to give anionic species with excess KOH, which can then be electrolytically oxidized; or reacted with plumbate (IV) or bismuthate(V); or solid MnO2 can be fused with a mixture of KNO3 and KOH.

Besides, for purifications involving oxidation, there are several other reagents that can be made to substitute for permanganate, depending on the situation, particularly: OsO4 (rather too expensive), chromate or dichromate(VI), ferrate(VI), plumbate(IV), chlorate(V), perchlorate(VII), periodate(VII), perxenate(VIII) (rather too expensive), H2O2, O3, hypochlorite, Cl2, and persulfate. All these would also have to be banned, along with electrolytic cells. They might as well try to ban EVERYTHING, including even hematite, Fe2O3 (a mineral of very wide occurrence, especially in Australia), because it can be used to make ferrate(VI), the substitute that most closely resembles permanganate.

You must understand John that to them its not about stopping people from synthesizing controled compounds but to make it uneconomical to do so. If they block KMnO4 then it makes it hard to synthesis something controlled when you have to $ynthesis it all yourself

Magpie - 23-10-2009 at 13:41

Quote:

If Canada's red-coated Gestapo, the Royal Canadian Mounted Pigs, are going to classify KMnO4 as a "restricted precursor",

John, this comment really got my mind racing and I just had to come up with an appropriate graphic. Credits to my #2 son.

JohnWW - 24-10-2009 at 00:39

Hmm ... That Pig is is wearing jackboots, as I would expect; but not a swastika armband, the death's head insignia on his cap, or SS shoulder-flashes.

[Edited on 25-10-09 by JohnWW]

gsd - 24-10-2009 at 06:20

Quote: Originally posted by 12AX7

John, it looks like you took your dollarsign meds today, but neglected the Gestapo meds.

LOL
BTW The $ sign it seems is reserved for U$ of A

John is at his sarcastic and acidic best (always hits the "pH zero") while dealing with the original $ country.

gsd

Magpie - 24-10-2009 at 07:15

Quote:

John is at his sarcastic and acidic best (always hits the "pH zero") while dealing with the original $ country.

Yes, but he can also hit pH14 when giving caustic commentary and $ardonic $ocial $atire.

gsd - 24-10-2009 at 07:19

LOL

$ardonic $ocial AND $OCIALIST $atire

gsd

aonomus - 24-10-2009 at 08:58

But pH extends down well into the negatives for superacids like fluoroantimonic acid.... so by comparison, pH zero is weak

I do agree that the idea is to prevent any large scale synthesis by making it hard to get reagents in bulk. We *could* synthesize it on our own for alot of things, but never as pure and cheaply as an industrial process. I'm surprised electrolytic cells haven't been banned for fear of producing metallic sodium, or KI banned since you can use H2O2 to produce I2...

On the flip side, I'm happy that certain compounds like hydrazines are restricted in Canada (I spoke with my professor who said he had to deal with the RCMP alot since he uses hydrazines in his research), because its darn energetic....

UnintentionalChaos - 24-10-2009 at 09:14

Quote: Originally posted by aonomus

But pH extends down well into the negatives for superacids like fluoroantimonic acid.... so by comparison, pH zero is weak

Any strong acid at >1M will be a negative pH. Fluoroantimonic acid reacts explosively with water, so how, pray tell, can you even talk about pH? Perhaps you'e thinking of Hammet acidity function. The strong acids are already there, though.

aonomus - 24-10-2009 at 09:22

I hate it when I post 2 minutes after waking up....

Quote: Originally posted by UnintentionalChaos

I've noticed something else too, its even hard to get glycerine for lubricating glass tubes through stoppers. The pharmacists only carry these microscopic, fragrence/scented bottles... Perhaps its chemophobia at its finest?

Wouldn't it be better though to restrict the starting materials, instead of the reagents? KMnO4 can be used for many oxidations, but say, pseudoephedrine found anywhere near glassware only would have 1 use....

Edit: accidentally hit post instead of preview

[Edited on 24-10-2009 by aonomus]

entropy51 - 24-10-2009 at 11:00

Quote: Originally posted by aonomus

IWouldn't it be better though to restrict the starting materials, instead of the reagents? KMnO4 can be used for many oxidations, but say, pseudoephedrine found anywhere near glassware only would have 1 use....

Maybe you haven't heard, but pseudoephedrine, phenylacetone, phenylacetic acid, benzyl cyanide, benzyl chloride, etc etc are restricted. I'm pretty sure those are starting materials. And what part of "KMnO4 can be purchased in bulk, no questions asked" is giving you trouble? This whole thread is based on the false premise that KMnO4 is hard to obtain.

mr.crow - 24-10-2009 at 11:26

I don't think its a false premise. My question is related to Canada because it is on the list of other naughty things.

This is odd for Canada, our list is way shorter and iodine is perfectly legal. We even have an Ebay store in BC selling some really suspicious but perfectly legal chemicals.

I know in the States you can get large amounts of permanganate at the store for water filters. My theory is KMnO4 is restricted only for international trade and not local use.

So my real question is if I decide to get say 500g will that be against the law?

entropy51 - 24-10-2009 at 11:54

Quote: Originally posted by mr.crow

So my real question is if I decide to get say 500g will that be against the law?

What does the Canadian law say? As I pointed out, KMnO4 is on the naughty list in the US, but is not illegal to sell or possess. I appears that the law itself is here I see "50 kg" next to KMnO4. Does that mean that only larger sales are reported? Could be. I would read the law carefully.

A key question that you have not addressed is "do they have KMnO4 on the shelves of retail stores for sale to the public?"

Very often sales have to be reported and export is controlled but possession is only illegal if used to make naughty things and then the person is charged with use of listed chemicals in the manufacture of ..... which increases the sentence if convicted.

[Edited on 24-10-2009 by entropy51]

[Edited on 24-10-2009 by entropy51]

[Edited on 24-10-2009 by entropy51]

entropy51 - 24-10-2009 at 12:52

If KMnO4 is banned or restricted in Canada, hardware store didn't get the memo.

What a lot of boxer bunching over nothing.

Magpie - 24-10-2009 at 15:59

from aonomous:

Quote:

Small 4oz bottles of glycerine seem to be readily available, although outrageously expensive, in US pharmacies - USP grade, I suppose. One store did have it behind the counter, however. When I asked the pharmacist why, he got a little defensive and said it was just because there wasn't enough demand for it to be located in regular shelf space.

Will someone please tell me how to get the little name marker on quotes. Thanks.

[Edited on 25-10-2009 by Magpie]

aonomus - 24-10-2009 at 22:45

@ Magpie: click the 'quote' button on someones post to see the formatting

I was at a super walmart today, and they only had a 1oz bottle, scented. There used to be bottles the size of IPA bottles next to each other, but perhaps demand has dropped (maybe due to new in-ear thermometers that no longer need... assistance?).

I'll have to check a non-big box hardware store, maybe further out from the city before I find any chemicals... alot of water treatment stuff isn't available in areas with good treated water. If KMnO4 possession isn't outright illegal if not used to make certain compounds, then I should think about picking up some just in case it does get restricted...

entropy51 - 25-10-2009 at 09:48

Quote: Originally posted by aonomus

I'll have to check a non-big box hardware store, maybe further out from the city before I find any chemicals... alot of water treatment stuff isn't available in areas with good treated water.

Where I live KMnO4 is found in Home Depot, which is one of the bigger boxes. Some Sears also carry it.

I find it a little odd that it's so readily available, because this is a large metropolitan area and the water is of course treated. Maybe some think it needs further treatment...

Most pharmacists would order glycerol for you, but would of course double the price.

Chemologist - 25-10-2009 at 11:55

Out of the 30+ hardware stores in my area only one that I know of still carries KMnO4 and I doubt it is actually still there (this was a year ago when I last bought some). It is a Home Depot.

Mark my words, soon it will be very difficult to acquire this compound through conventional means and difficult/risky to get it on the internet. KMnO4 isn't unique in this respect though.

I can only assume that, if this green/safe craze continues for much longer you will need a license to by any chemical that isn't "green". Just remember, it's for our own good and "nature" never produces anything harmful.

About US
I think the only way governments (State/Fed) will lay off is if they are forced to when the U.S. becomes insolvent (or bankrupt and nobody will loan us more money or accept our worthless currency for payment). I wonder which territory we will sell (or be forced to give up) first?

Canada, on the other hand--ugh... Is it just me or does Canada always try to emulate what the U.S. is doing? I wonder if they'll commit financial suicide right after us?

[Edited on 25-10-2009 by Chemologist]

JohnWW - 25-10-2009 at 13:54

In that case, you will have to look at methods of producing the best substitute for permanganate as an oxidant in synthetic organic chemistry, which is most likely ferrate(VI), of which probably Na2FeO4 would be the best to produce and store, if it cannot be bought. It could be done electrolytically. I have obtained it in solution, with a characteristic intense magenta color, slightly more reddish than permanganate, simply by reacting a Fe(III) compound with (alkaline) hypochorite bleach, but it is supposed to be very difficult to crystallize it from such a solution. There is a thread on it somewhere here.

aonomus - 25-10-2009 at 14:49

I don't know what the forum rules are on political commentary, but since its applicable, I'll try to keep my thoughts short. The Canadian government is sadly trying to emulate what the US is doing, but people aren't as aware, because it isn't as bad yet. I don't think Canada will ever get as bad as the US in terms of financial crisis, because at the very least, we still have natural resources and a upstream industry, whereas the US has taken this entire shift away from any real production, resource gathering, and is only a service industry based country.

And I don't think the state and federal governments *will* ever lay off. In this day and age, with a slowly growing overuse of police power, people will start to catch on and figure out that there is more job security and power to be a cop, or in general work for government. More and more people will end up working for the government and it becomes even more dangerous to be an amateur scientist. Or maybe I'm just nutty and too afraid?

As for the chemicals, the green craze is all subjective anyway. Companies have to pay for cleanup fees, insurance fees, etc, while in some cases, homeowners and residential areas end up being exempt due to small waste production. Yes, the occasional hazardous substance may go down the drain in suburbs, etc, but you really can't police it, either people don't care, or don't know better. And people simply won't accept people barging in and inventorying everything. From the business perspective, it seems more reasonable since there are fire safety inspections,

Really, from the storeowners perspective, its also a liability issue, I remember having to look for muriatic acid once, and no stores had any, and I had to go across Toronto to find a pool store that had its last bottle there. The manager said that its just a hazard and liability. He'd have to train his staff for what to do if it spilled, have proper storage for the stock, etc. Home depot had the same reasoning, and it didn't want to get sued into oblivion when (not if) someone got hurt.

undead_alchemist - 25-10-2009 at 17:41

From what I know, the Health Canada list for KMnO4 you can buy up to 50Kg with an EUD filled out. Many of the items on the Health Canada list A, have limited Quantity exemptions.

Many chemicals that my work sells, we need EUDs on file before they can be sold.

psychokinetic - 26-10-2009 at 11:51

Glycerin is being restricted? That's believable but hard to imagine when it's for sale in bulk foods stores here!

Question time though, I was wondering if any other New Zealandites knew our status on KMnO4 - I've had a look around, even asked our local cop-shop and they had no idea.

aonomus - 26-10-2009 at 14:37

No I don't think glycerin is being restricted, I think people just aren't buying it as much when they can go to the shelf and either get the cheapest thing, or buy what is shown on TV...

MagicJigPipe - 29-10-2009 at 20:51

A good percentage of people seem to associate glycerin with nitroglycerin. Not surprising. But what is surprising is when they see a bottle of it in a lab--they get scared and ask questions like, "is that gonna blow up?" and "do you know what you're doing?"--but when it's in the medicine cabinet it's no big deal.

The power of context.

When I worked at a 1-hour eyeglass place we used gallons of it as a heating bath liquid. There didn't seem to be any concern. The only reason there should be concern over glycerin is ignorance.

Sedit - 29-10-2009 at 21:07

Quote:

"is that gonna blow up?" and "do you know what you're doing?"--

Next time Scream NO!!! And throw it as hard as you can at the wall just to watch there ignorant legs tremble as they see a "high explosive" fly across the room and slam into the wall full force. If your really bord scream BOOM! as loud as you can as it hits the wall

MagicJigPipe - 19-2-2010 at 17:02

I didn't read that until just now. I laughed for at least a few minutes. Thanks for that.

Vogelzang - 20-2-2010 at 06:03

The mounties always get their man.

proofenough-500.jpg - 114kB

JohnWW - 20-2-2010 at 07:28

Oh, you mean the Royal Canadian Mounted Pigs, Canada's red-coated Gestapo.

chief - 20-2-2010 at 11:05

What's the problem with "expensive" glycerine ? Just cook soap out of some oil with NaOH; glycerine will be the other product ...

bbartlog - 20-2-2010 at 18:27

I've made soap with lye. Unless you go to extra trouble to separate it, the glycerin stays in the soap. Possibly if you were very careful to keep water to a minimum (rather than adding an aqueous solution of NaOH, which is the standard recipe), the separation would occur by itself as you would avoid forming an emulsion. Maybe you were thinking of biodiesel production, which proceeds this way. Regardless, whatever you ended up with would not exactly be reagent grade. I admit I'm a little mystified by the high price of glycerine, since every so often I hear it mentioned as a waste product of biodiesel that is simply piling up in 55-gallon drums; but I don't think it's a particularly easy product to purify, which might be the problem.

Centrifuge

MadHatter - 20-2-2010 at 21:03

Anybody ? Magpie knows what I'm talking about. BTW, what does this have to do
with KMNO4 unless the plan is to mix the two for a fiery reaction ?

quicksilver - 11-3-2010 at 09:29

No, these items are not restricted (non List 1 chemicals) -what happens is that the individual chains received government notices of abuse or letters with a VERY subtle inference that the DHS or whatever would "like their help" in curtailing some serious issues", etc bla, bla, bla.... Canada is VERY much like the USA in these matters.

In the USA some VERY large chains pulled Ammonium Nitrate and sulfuric acid, when the "became aware of the 'problem". Additionally many companies have sourced different products. There is in fact an extreme surplus of sulfuric acid due primarily to anodizing aluminum (that's often why you see the black crud in bottles). But when they get letters; they get paranoid and switch suppliers to sodium hydroxide (or whatever). How do I know this happens? A friend showed me a letter (around the time of the "Be Aware for America" campaign).

If I didn't think it would be inappropriate; I would reprint one. Those who remember the "Don't make M80's" letter that members of PGII and a whole list of people got (who bought chemicals from a pryro supplier) and it's impact.....scares the crap out of you. Since that time I have always wondered what gives the CPSC the RIGHT to use Justice Dept stationary for "impact".

There are some folks here who got "The Letter". Approx 25% (a guess) got out of the hobby altogether. BAM! "I'm selling off all my pyro stuff".

This is a not-so-subtle use of power. Because whether it's a company or an individual, a letter has a lot of impact!
This bring to mind the whole of the "surrender mentality".

The thing that can be really infuriating is the idea of surrendering one's rights. Typically in the USA it's the 4th Amendment, the right to privacy.
The typical conception is "I'VE GOT NOTHING TO HIDE SO LET THEM SEARCH ALL THEY WANT". This was how some of the most egregious breaks with the Constitution have occurred in BOTH Canada & The USA. One of the most basic points is that it doesn't matter if you have something to hide or not. You have a right to privacy and security in your belongings. We have let so sublime little things make us shrink from contesting our Rights that we ended up with the Patriot Act (I) and Canada ended up with (Heaven's knows what laws!). many noted Constitutional scholars have seen what the 1st rendition of The Patriot Act brought about & it's not healthy for those who treasure freedom.

If you are one of those people who say "I have nothing to hide, so let them search my house and my person all they want" I have something for you to read and ponder.

Attachment: I_Have_Nothing_to_Hide-id998565.pdf (296kB)
This file has been downloaded 1011 times

[Edited on 11-3-2010 by quicksilver]

KNO3me - 5-4-2010 at 19:18

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

No, these items are not restricted (non List 1 chemicals) -what happens is that the individual chains received government notices of abuse or letters with a VERY subtle inference that the DHS or whatever would "like their help" in curtailing some serious issues", etc bla, bla, bla.... Canada is VERY much like the USA in these matters.

In the USA some VERY large chains pulled Ammonium Nitrate and sulfuric acid, when the "became aware of the 'problem". Additionally many companies have sourced different products. There is in fact an extreme surplus of sulfuric acid due primarily to anodizing aluminum (that's often why you see the black crud in bottles). But when they get letters; they get paranoid and switch suppliers to sodium hydroxide (or whatever). How do I know this happens? A friend showed me a letter (around the time of the "Be Aware for America" campaign).

If I didn't think it would be inappropriate; I would reprint one. Those who remember the "Don't make M80's" letter that members of PGII and a whole list of people got (who bought chemicals from a pryro supplier) and it's impact.....scares the crap out of you. Since that time I have always wondered what gives the CPSC the RIGHT to use Justice Dept stationary for "impact".

There are some folks here who got "The Letter". Approx 25% (a guess) got out of the hobby altogether. BAM! "I'm selling off all my pyro stuff".

This is a not-so-subtle use of power. Because whether it's a company or an individual, a letter has a lot of impact!
This bring to mind the whole of the "surrender mentality".

The thing that can be really infuriating is the idea of surrendering one's rights. Typically in the USA it's the 4th Amendment, the right to privacy.
The typical conception is "I'VE GOT NOTHING TO HIDE SO LET THEM SEARCH ALL THEY WANT". This was how some of the most egregious breaks with the Constitution have occurred in BOTH Canada & The USA. One of the most basic points is that it doesn't matter if you have something to hide or not. You have a right to privacy and security in your belongings. We have let so sublime little things make us shrink from contesting our Rights that we ended up with the Patriot Act (I) and Canada ended up with (Heaven's knows what laws!). many noted Constitutional scholars have seen what the 1st rendition of The Patriot Act brought about & it's not healthy for those who treasure freedom.

If you are one of those people who say "I have nothing to hide, so let them search my house and my person all they want" I have something for you to read and ponder.

[Edited on 11-3-2010 by quicksilver]

So is this another one of those things where the government feels that it has to protect its people from themselves?

quicksilver - 6-4-2010 at 06:50

Indeed.
Just my opinion - but that issue draws into it's orbit the whole of restrictions on chemicals, firearms, swords, powerful radios, & certain other objects.
One of the most common symptoms of paranoia (in this regard) is illustrated HERE, on this Board. You will read all sorts of "Non mea culpa" posts; such as disclaimers that the author does not have any chemicals any more, does not light materials on fire, or has stopped experimenting years ago, etc. That's just plain sad: that a person would feel they are being "watched" or whatever to the point that "big brother" is monitoring a science bulletin board and a discussion over trivial levels of fulminate or whatever. I have done it myself.
I am not saying that during certain periods that Carnivore or whatever may scan the internet for co-incidental dialog but I really think the Fed has lots more important things to do than keep track over how many "Cold-Packs" someone buys.
......The local Fire Marshall may be a different matter - but that office is not some three letter agency with offices in Ft. Meade monitoring every key pressed on a sophomore's laptop......

KNO3me - 14-4-2010 at 17:11

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

One of the most common symptoms of paranoia (in this regard) is illustrated HERE, on this Board. You will read all sorts of "Non mea culpa" posts; such as disclaimers that the author does not have any chemicals any more, does not light materials on fire, or has stopped experimenting years ago, etc. That's just plain sad: that a person would feel they are being "watched" or whatever to the point that "big brother" is monitoring a science bulletin board and a discussion over trivial levels of fulminate or whatever. I have done it myself.

I feel the same way. Sometimes I can seem a bit paranoid when I buy certain things off the internet. Just last year I bought 5 books on explosives and I think Amazon may be reporting people that buy the kind of material that I buy. (We do live in the post 9-11 era and lately there have been attempts for a repeat.) I try to be careful about what and how I order my chemicals off the net because I don’t want a knock on my door. I love explosives, it’s my hobby and I want to make a career out of it by joining E.O.D. in the U.S.A.F.

Also, it’s stupid to restrict chemicals from the public. If someone needs a certain chemical that the government outlaws or puts a restriction on then HOTDOG! that person is going to find a way to obtain what he or she needs.

When God closes a door, He opens a window.

quicksilver - 17-4-2010 at 09:14

What we are discussing has very far reaching implications.
We are talking essentially about a "backdoor muzzling" of common discussions. Remember when people would use the acronym "SWIM"?
I'm fairly sure that except for threats against the President and certain provisions for illustrating unknown facts in an on-going felony investigation, that speech is still protected by the Constitution in so far as this hobby is concerned.
Little Johnny says he made an oxycubain: so what? Little Johnny posts a picture of crystals or powder, so what? Who is to say that little Johnny didn't just copy all his chemistry from a fucking book next to his computer and photograph all his yield with a cellphone and Mom's kitchen table???
But yet enormous amounts of contributors won't dare say a word of their hobby (even if they really DON'T do anything really prosecutable) because of the "headhunter" mentality of cops or prosecutors with arrest / conviction statistics on their mind.

What's more I applaud the gentleman (KNO3me ) for wanting to make a career out of Military disposal operations. If still not in the service, does he not have a right to educate himself as to Fuze mechanisms and chemical interaction without fear of someone twisting the subject to it's lowest & most destructive agenda? Would not the same be said for a Lock Smith, machinist, or an electronics engineer for that matter?
That is the jist of my point; the twisting and misreading of postings & dialog. We are muzzled from a fear-based agenda, developed from the very method of communication we use.
Everyone knows that the printed word cannot communicate the same way that the spoken word can.....That is why we use little "smiles" and things, so that our meaning is made clearer. It's just too easy to take a written Email (for instance) & believe the writer is meaning something entirely different than interned.

[Edited on 17-4-2010 by quicksilver]

KNO3me - 18-4-2010 at 00:31

Actually I’ve never heard of the acronym SWIM before.
Does it mean “System Wide Information Management”?

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

I'm fairly sure that except for threats against the President and certain provisions for illustrating unknown facts in an on-going felony investigation, that speech is still protected by the Constitution in so far as this hobby is concerned.

I suppose you’re right, since NAMBLA can get away with publishing a manual called "Rape and Escape" and some man named David L. Riegel can also publish a book called “Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers”. Tonight I found out that you can find Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers on Amazon. Although I am protected by the constitution, I am still going to be very cautious how conduct my hobby.

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

What's more I applaud the gentleman (KNO3me ) for wanting to make a career out of Military disposal operations. If still not in the service, does he not have a right to educate himself as to Fuze mechanisms and chemical interaction without fear of someone twisting the subject to it's lowest & most destructive agenda? Would not the same be said for a Lock Smith, machinist, or an electronics engineer for that matter?

First, I’d like to say thank you.

And secondly, I’m an 18yr old kid soon to be 19 this month working on making it into the Air Force. Right now I’m in community college till June so I can complete 15 units. I don’t want to attend community college but the Air Force won’t accept my diploma because I’m coming from a tier 2 high school.

Yes, everyone should have the right to explore science of all kinds except the manufacture of narcotics. I would understand if one is interested in how narcotics are produced but to manufacture and sell, I’m strongly against. Drugs tear lives apart.

I’m taking ECONMT (electrical construction maintenance) and with my little knowledge someone could cause a great deal of destruction with electricity. I understand your point and it’s any excellent one but sadly many people fail to critically think about these things.

Sandmeyer - 18-4-2010 at 19:59

Quote: Originally posted by KNO3me

Actually I’ve never heard of the acronym SWIM before.
Does it mean “System Wide Information Management”?

No, no, no... Well, SWIM is an extremely powerful, broad-spectrum agent, if you want to make people cry you just toss in a post containing SWIM in a thread, you wait a bit and then *BOOM*.

Many others are effective as well, "red phosphorus" or "nitromethane" for example will work on some more vulnerable victims.

KNO3me - 21-4-2010 at 13:58

Oh, I see what you mean.

Quote: Originally posted by Sandmeyer

Many others are effective as well, "red phosphorus" or "nitromethane" for example will work on some more vulnerable victims.

I know what they are but what are you saying?

FluoroPunch - 13-4-2019 at 19:13

Hey, I know this is probably a decade late but...buying KMnO4 in Canada is fine. I got 500g off eBay no problem, great stuff.