Sciencemadness Discussion Board

KNO3 from feces

Random - 29-5-2010 at 13:54

Well, I was looking for the easiest ways to make kno3, and it come to this: feces. I am able to have daily cat and dog feces production, maybe even rabbit's feces. Which are the best, and please post a recipe if you have it. And I'm not kidding with this :)

Sedit - 29-5-2010 at 14:29

Sounds like a shitty way to get KNO3 if ya ask me:D sorry couldnt resist

Chainhit222 - 29-5-2010 at 14:31

Brainfevert (I believe) extracted KNO3 from soil that used to be in horse stables. He just washed it in water and did a recrystalization (maybe using a seed crystal of KNO3 would be good). I believe that rabbit shit would be the best for the job. Cow and bat works well too I think. I don't think you want to be dealing with cat shit.

Random - 29-5-2010 at 14:41

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Sounds like a shitty way to get KNO3 if ya ask me:D sorry couldnt resist


It actually is a very shitty one, but someone has to do it hehe :D

Random - 29-5-2010 at 14:45

Quote: Originally posted by Chainhit222  
Brainfevert (I believe) extracted KNO3 from soil that used to be in horse stables. He just washed it in water and did a recrystalization (maybe using a seed crystal of KNO3 would be good). I believe that rabbit shit would be the best for the job. Cow and bat works well too I think. I don't think you want to be dealing with cat shit.


Cat shit is really bad, I'll just try rabbit shit then (or maybe I even find bat's toilet place so I'll mine it there :) ). I would just wash it in water and evaporate it, hoping to get some kno3 crystals. After that maybe I could use one of these crystals as seed crystal for another purifying. Now I just have to ask my friend for rabbit dump :P

hissingnoise - 29-5-2010 at 15:27

Random, is it a question of having to do it this way or is this some kind of survivalist exercise?
Erm, I tend to go for the easy option - like just buying it. . .

not_important - 29-5-2010 at 16:47

The subject has been brought up a number of times before, and there are several existing threads on it. For example:

this year
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13271

2007
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11388

2006
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=74&...

2005
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3986


and another recent repeat was in regards to "Nitric Acid by Soil Electrolysis"
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10511


Please learn to do some simple investigation before starting new threads, it will save you time in the end


psychokinetic - 30-5-2010 at 01:30

Lesson 441:

Don't read sciencemadness during dinner.

Random - 30-5-2010 at 07:24

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Random, is it a question of having to do it this way or is this some kind of survivalist exercise?
Erm, I tend to go for the easy option - like just buying it. . .



It's some sort of caveman project :D

Random - 30-5-2010 at 07:26

Quote: Originally posted by not_important  
The subject has been brought up a number of times before, and there are several existing threads on it. For example:

this year
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13271

2007
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11388

2006
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=74&...

2005
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3986


and another recent repeat was in regards to "Nitric Acid by Soil Electrolysis"
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10511


Please learn to do some simple investigation before starting new threads, it will save you time in the end




Thanks for those threads, I thought this was a rare case of kno3 production so I didn't search. I will search in the future before making new threads, but sometimes there is a thread about that and I can't find it. :(

not_important - 30-5-2010 at 20:44

try searching using the 'advanced' search on Google, restricting the search to the www.sciencemadness.org domain. This not only lets you do fancier searches than the site's own search engine, but sometime the text on the search results page shows enough to dismiss or mark it as interesting.

As for an idea being a rare case, I suspect there's a rule related to Rule 34 that applies to ideas in science.

psychokinetic - 31-5-2010 at 01:41

We need more rule 34 in science. But not in this thread, please. o.o'

Ephoton - 31-5-2010 at 02:45

I always thought chicken shit was the go for this kind of thing.

12AX7 - 31-5-2010 at 04:43

Did someone say, Rule 34?

http://img.listal.com/image/400045/600full-kari-byron.jpg

Well, it's a start at least...

Tim

[Edited on 5-31-2010 by 12AX7]

did some one say rabbit here somewere

Ephoton - 31-5-2010 at 06:15

to crude get my ass kicked for that one :)

still I call rule 46 though.

make it furry.


[Edited on 31-5-2010 by Ephoton]

Chainhit222 - 31-5-2010 at 09:15

*waits for video of someone sodomizing a large flask & playing with a test tube*

Random - 1-6-2010 at 00:53

Quote: Originally posted by Chainhit222  
*waits for video of someone sodomizing a large flask & playing with a test tube*


*this reminds Random of two girls one cup video*

ScienceSquirrel - 1-6-2010 at 07:18

There are detailed instructions here;

http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/lecontesalt/leconte.html

The process is lengthy and disgusting with the tasting of the crude material as an assay method being particularly vile :)

I suspect that you could achieve a similar result more cleanly with a paddling pool or such like in an old shed.
You would make a large mound of earth and chalk mixed with dead leaves etc in the pool and water it with a weak solution of ammonium sulphate on a regular basis and turning it from time to time.
The pile would get quite warm and this is desirable to maintain a good speed of reaction and it would smell though not disgustingly bad. Really it would just be an overfed indoor compost heap.
Ammonium sulphate would convert in the heap to calcium nitrate and sulphate.
Alternatively you could use a large bucket, say five gallons, and keep it in the bottom of the airing cupboard, this would assume that you live alone!
Think warm, moist but not wet, plenty of oxygen; just like the man says! :(
After a year or so, leach the heap with gallons of hot water and boil down in an old Burco boiler or similar. Add potassium carbonate to form the saltpetre and filter off the precipitated chalk.
Concentrate and crystallise!

[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]

The WiZard is In - 1-6-2010 at 09:39

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  
There are detailed instructions here;

http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/lecontesalt/leconte.html

The process is lengthy and disgusting with the tasting of the crude material as an assay method being particularly vile :)

[snip]




Removed en bloc from rec.pyrotechnics

Tom Perigrin's KN03 Story

Many years ago, when I was a well muscled young man of my middle 20's,
I belonged to a Rennaisence Faire group called "Clan Collin". This
was a recreationist group that portryed a Scottish Mercenary Army of
the 16'th C. I played the part of the Artillary Officer.

Well, I decided that the Rennaisence Faire was too "prissy". Where was
the offal in the road? Where were the chamber pots? Where was the
raw sewage? So, I decided to re-enact a less salubrious part of 16'th
C life. I decided to extract saltpeter from manure and urine,
according to the procedure of Birringucchio (1540).

So, I got a half barrel, put it up on some bales of hay, drilled a
hole in the bottom of the side, and plugged it. Then I went out and
found some well dried horse dung, some oak ashes, and some lime. I
then put a 4-finger thick layer of manure in the barrel, followed by a
2-finger thick layer of ashes, and a 1-finger thick layer of lime. I
repeated that until the barrel was nearly full. Then, that evening,
after the Faire had closed, I had a few selected men of the clan pee in
the pot (this was pre-AIDS). This was allowed to set overnight, and
to begin it's ferment.
*flurp, blub, bubble*

The next Faire day (Sunday) opened to a hot and swealtering day, and
right in the middle of the first fork in the road there was a burley
Scotsman stirring a pot of rather foul smelling yellow-brown liquid.
This gig provided HUGE amusement to me and the Scots all through the
day. For example, there was the Sassenach (Southern English) Officer
who came to inspect what the Scots military was doing - I told him I
was making saltpeter, and before he could realize what was happening, I
had used my hand to scoop out a few unbroken lumps, and deposited them
in his hand. At first he didn't realize anything was "amiss". After
all, they were coated with ashes and lime and looked like light-weight
rocks. But as I described how "this be the most fullsome earth I could
find in the stables", and then as I lifted one up and broke it open and
said "Ach, but they no be broken up enough!", it dawned on him that he
had a handful of ... shit.

There we were, on stage, with several hundred people watching us. His
20'th C person was revolted! He had a handful of horse manure! But
his 16'th C character was "fascinated". So, he poked at it once or
twice, discussed the qualities of the English versus the Scottish
earths, and then dropped it back into the barrel. He leaned towards me
and used my sleeve to wipe off his hand (the least I could do), and
then said in a very quiet voice "Damn you!". All the while my
hangers-on were trying to prevent themselves from visably cracking
up...

But even more fun was the responses of the public! At first they would
be very interested. After all, here is a big burley guy stirring a pot
of something right in the middle of the fork in the road. This guy
WANTS to be noticed! They would come over and I would launch into my
spiel...
but after a while they began to twig. The terms "saltpeter", "earth",
"humours", "waters", and such were almost familar - and after a while
the color, the ODOR, and the words would all click, and they'd say "you
have a a bucket of SHIT? OH GROSS!". Only a few stayed after they
realized what was in the bucket...

But the MOST fun of the day was in the middle of the hotest part of the
afternoon. Two young women came over to flirt with me (In the
mid-70's I was a competetive bicycler and thus I had good legs under
the kilt, had long flowing hair and beard, and cut a good figure of a
man). These young women were drunk as skunks - it had been a HOT day,
and the ale went down easily.

So, here I am, with well mixed horse manure up to my elbows... flirting
with two lovelies with halter tops and shorts. And it seemed as if
they got into a flirting contest with each other (which I LOVED!).
First they chatted, but then one took her fingers and ran them up and
down the smooth silky looking liquid on my arm. Normally that would
have been a very very provocative gesture, but I had to tell her what
she did. At first she didn't understand... but finally she did -
"you mean that's horse shit?" "Aye, mixed with the waters of the men of
the company"

Suddenly, flirting was NO LONGER on her mind. She pulled back, and
looked as if she might leave, when her companion started laughing at
her distress. This was too much for her. She took her now dirty
fingers and wiped them on the shoulder of her friend. "Well how do
YOU like it?" Suddenly her freind was not so happy either! So she
reached down, and grabbed a handful of the mixture, and flung it at
first one, and hit her full on the halter top, right on her -- shall we
say -- most curvacious anatomy.

In the next 60 seconds things escalated even more. Suddenly liquid
manure and urine was flying in both directions, and screams and curses
were following. I stepped back against the tree behind me, and could
but watch in amazement as they flung handful after handful of foul
filth back and forth. Then they set into pushing and shoving, and
grappling, and ended up wrestling in the dust of the street. This dust
mixed with the handfuls of yellow muck to produce a most amazing cake
on each of them.

All this time the men and women of Clan Collin are howling with
laughter, and can hardly stand for the hilarity of it. I myself am
dumbfounded... I have never had two women fight over me before
(although, I think they were fighting not over me, but rather because
of their rivalry), and certainly I didn't look forward to embracing
the winner if it should come to that. But the fight came to an end,
they parted different ways without a backward glance to me, and I never
saw them again after that (But I did go home that night with the woman
who has been my wife now for one and twenty years, so that worked out
alright).

Finally, I filtered the liquids, and boiled them down, and recieved a
pound of crystals that were contaminated with earthly humors. This was
dissolved in a small amount of boiling water in an iron kettle, and
allowed to cool, and I did recieve three ounces less than a pound of
very light yellow crystals. This was then powdered, and mixed with
those things in those ways that one does (I cannot tell you more, for
that is a guild secret), and it did make a fine and goodly gunpowder.



djh
----
Act 1, Henry IV.:—

And that it was a great pity, so it was,
That villainous saltpetre should be digg'd
Out of the bowels of this harmless earth.

ScienceSquirrel - 1-6-2010 at 09:58

Sadly almost certainly a fictional story.
You could make a mix like that but it would not make any nitre.
The mixture needs to rot in warm, damp conditions with plenty of air until it is like a rich compost, maybe a year or two is needed.
The final extraction takes place when the mixture is like black earth without a smell of ammonia or manure.
The other depressing thing is that it has be be done on a big scale otherwise it just will not rot down.
Compost and manure has to be made on a large scale or it will not develop the right conditions to start to rot.
Look at the original paper and you will realise they are doing it on a tonnage scale.

[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]

Random - 1-6-2010 at 11:22

Interesting info, thanks for it. I also found that I can buy some black compost in the gardening store, maybe i could filter the water solution of it and see what I would get.. Which water soluble salts are in those black composts?

The WiZard is In - 1-6-2010 at 11:35

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  
Sadly almost certainly a fictional story.



Ahhh you dobe quick to criticize someone you know nothing
about! I would put Prof. (chemistry) TP at the top of the
people whose judgment I trust list.

Granted letting it sit and bubble for a longer time would
increase the output, however, given the time restraints
this experiment was conducted under....


This from one of his 1997 rec.pyrotechnics posts —

I did this once... not for the nitrate, but as a Rennaisence Faire gig.

Yes, "nitrate bearing earth" is horse manure, outhouse gunk, or similar
materials. So this procedure tells you how to extract KNO3 from shit.
If you don't fancy working with tubs of shit, don't do this.

When I did this I worked with 25 gallons of "earth". In the end I got
about 1.25 pounds of KNO3. It took me 2 days, and I probably used 1/8'th
of a cord of wood to boil down the liquid. At $120/cord, that means I
used $15 worth of wood to obtain that 1.25 pounds of KNO3.

The WiZard is In - 1-6-2010 at 11:43

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  
Sadly almost certainly a fictional story.
You could make a mix like that but it would not make any nitre.
The mixture needs to rot in warm, damp conditions with plenty of air until it is like a rich compost, maybe a year or two is needed.
The final extraction takes place when the mixture is like black earth without a smell of ammonia or manure.
The other depressing thing is that it has be be done on a big scale otherwise it just will not rot down.
Compost and manure has to be made on a large scale or it will not develop the right conditions to start to rot.
Look at the original paper and you will realise they are doing it on a tonnage scale.

[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]



SALTPETRE, NITRATE, OF POTASSA.
Wagner’s Chemical Technology 1872
(A translation of Rudlof Wagner’s “Handbuch der Chemischen” 8th Edition 1870)
Republished by Lindsay Publications
And Google.com/books


MODE OF OBTAINING SALTPETRE. The mode of making, these plantations may be
briefly described as follows:—Materials containing, much carbonate of lime—for
instance, marl, old building rubbish, ashes, road scrapings, stable refuse, or mud from
canals—is mixed with nitrogenous animal matter, all kinds of refuse, and frequently with
such vegetable substances as naturally contain nitrate of potassa, such as the leaves
and stems of the potato, the leaves of the beet, sunflower plants, nettles, &c. These
materials are arranged in heaps of a pyramidal shape to a height of 2 to 2 ½ metres,
care being taken to make the bottom impervious to water by a well puddled layer of
clay, the heap being in all directions exposed to the action of the atmosphere, the
circulation of which is promoted through the heap by of straw. The heap is protected
from rain by a roof, and at least once a week watered with lant (stale urine). The
formation of saltpetre of course requires a considerable length of time, but, when taught
by experience, the workmen suppose a heap “ripe”, the watering is discontinued, the
salt containing saltpetre soon after efflorescing over the surface of the heap to 6 to 10
centims. in thickness; this layer is scraped off, and the operation repeated from time to
time until the heap becomes decayed and has to be entirely removed. In Switzerland
saltpetre is artificially made by many of the farmers, simply by causing the urine of the
cattle, while in stable in the winter time, to be absorbed by a calcareous soil purposely
placed under the loose flooring of the stables, which are chiefly built on the slope of the
mountains, so that only the door is level with the earth outside, the rest of the building
hanging over the slope, and being supported by stout wooden poles; thus a space is
obtained, which, freely admitting air, is filled with marl or other suitable material. After
two or three years this material is removed, lixiviated with water, mixed with caustic lime
and wood ash, and boiled down. The liquor having been sufficiently evaporated, is
decanted from the sediment and left for crystallization; the quantity of saltpetre varying
from 50 to 200 lbs. for each stable.

Not knowing the size of each stable number of cattle, &c....
I would posit that 50 to 200 pounds of nitrate is little output for a [literal] shit load of input!

ScienceSquirrel - 1-6-2010 at 11:53

To get a respectable percentage of nitrate you have to water the heap with an ammoniacal liquor over a long period.
Gallons of piss over a long period on a suitable alkaline substrate is required.
Black compost is not going to yield much unless you extract 100kg amounts for a few grams yield.
Really you would be better mixing a fertiliser rich in potassium and nitrate, look at the analysis on the bag of the bag, with hot water and filtering it while hot.
Then concentrate and cool.
Have a look at some of the available material on the extraction of alkali and iodine from seaweed by drying and burning the kelp, lixiviating the ash and then concentrating and crystallising.
Or the extraction of oil from peat.
Both of them were large scale operations that stank and produced pollution on a big scale for the amount of product formed.
Unless you live on a big property with distant and uncaring neighbours with a hill billy attitude to filth and mess you can forget it*

* You can spot good neighbours for this by counting fingers, more than six on each hand is good, rotting 4x4's in the yard, car horns that play Dixie, etc :)
The fact that you are going to start a cave man black powder works in their backyard will probably go down well with them as they are probably hand loaders waiting for the world to end.

ScienceSquirrel - 1-6-2010 at 12:11

The mixture is just too raw, the stuff needs to rot for months until it is no longer raw turds and urine but black earth and the yield is way too high.
12 ounces is just too high for a final yield on that mass of crude starting material treated in that way.
His tale of the extraction of black earth is more credible, but note that he used 25 gallons of crude black earth which is an enormous mass , I would guess that it was at least 400 - 600lbs which is a lot more than the half barrel full in the first story for a similar yield.
and as for the scato -erotic diversion of the shit fight between the two young women, least said soonest mended.

The WiZard is In - 1-6-2010 at 12:13

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  
Sadly almost certainly a fictional story.
You could make a mix like that but it would not make any nitre.
The mixture needs to rot in warm, damp conditions with plenty of air until it is like a rich compost, maybe a year or two is needed.
The final extraction takes place when the mixture is like black earth without a smell of ammonia or manure.
The other depressing thing is that it has be be done on a big scale otherwise it just will not rot down.
Compost and manure has to be made on a large scale or it will not develop the right conditions to start to rot.
Look at the original paper and you will realise they are doing it on a tonnage scale.

[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]




----
I charge you with apostasy to "The art and science of amateur experimentalism."

You — based on book learning — criticize someone who actually did the experiment.


Where is my good friend Aurelain is now that I need him?

AURELIAN (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus), ca. 215-275

A single instance will serve to display the rigour, and even cruelty
of Aurelian. One of his soldiers had seduced the wife of his host.
The guilty wretch was fastened to two trees forcible drawn toward
each other, and his limbs were torn asunder by their sudden separation.
A few such examples impressed a salutary consternation.
The punishment of Aurelain were terrible; but he had seldom occasion
to punish more than once for the same offence.

Edward Gibbion, The History Of The Decline and Fall Of The Roman Empire.

Strong letter follows.

Snicker-snicker; tee-hee; chortle; guffaw.

ScienceSquirrel - 1-6-2010 at 12:24

I have a fair bit of experience in practical lab work and I run a 10 UK gallon ( 46 litre ) microbrewery as a hobby so I have some feel for what is likely and practical.

ScienceSquirrel - 1-6-2010 at 12:57

A practical method might be to set up an aquarium and a bottom filter under a bed of natural gravel taken from a pond or stream, preferably from near a sewage outflow to maximise our good bacteria!
This could be fed with a mixture of urine and garden lime, don't you just love this scrummy chemistry :).
The bacteria are tolerant of high levels of urea, ammonia salts and nitrate and starving them of any organic matter that would favour denitrification.
You are running a basic small sewage farm dealing with wee only.
I reckon this would produce a liquor containing a few grams of calcium nitrate per litre after a few weeks.
Treat the liquor with potassium carbonate and then filter and concentrate.

The WiZard is In - 1-6-2010 at 13:16

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  

Or the extraction of oil from peat.



You can get nitrate from peat.


Geoffrey Martin and William Barbour
Industrial Nitrogen Compounds and Explosives: A Practical Treatise on the
Manufacture of, Properties and Industrial Uses of Nitric Acid, Nitrates, Nitrites,
Ammonia, Ammonium Salts, Cyanides, Cyanamide, Etc. Etc.
D. Appleton and Company, New York MCMXV

Whether derived from rocks or from efflorescences in the soil near stables,
urinals, etc., the nitrate is invariably produced by the decay of nitrogenous
organic material, first into ammonia, and later, by oxidation, into nitrous and nitric
acids, which, in the presence of alkali, produce potassium nitrate.

At one time much potassium nitrate was produced in Europe by the Govern-
ments of the different countries for supplying themselves with the necessary
nitrate for making gunpowder, the operation being carried out in " saltpetre
plantations."

For this purpose nitrogenous organic matter of animal or vegetable origin was
allowed to putrefy by exposure to air in a dark place ; it was then mixed with lime,
mortar, and wood ashes (containing salts of potassium and sodium) and heaped
into low mounds. These were left exposed to the air, being moistened from time
to time by urine and the drainage from dung-heaps.

After a couple of years the outer surface of the saltpetre earth was removed' and
the nitrates extracted by lixiviation with water. To the solution potassium
carbonate was added, and on concentration and filtering from the precipitated
calcium and magnesium salts, the clear solution was evaporated for KNO3.

This industry, however' since the introduction of the cheap NaNO3, has almost
entirely ceased, the KNO3, being now made from the NaNO3 by the conversion
process described above. It is possible that, in a modified form, this old industry
may revive.

Thus Muntz and Laine (Compt. rend., 1905, 141, 861 ; 1906, 142, 430, 1239)
impregnated peat with sufficient lime to combine with the nitric acid formed, and
then inoculated it with nitrifying bacteria and passed through it a 0.75 per cent.
solution of ammonium sulphate (NH4)2SO4 at 30o C., thereby obtaining a 1 per
cent. solution of calcium nitrate, Ca(N03)2. The bacteria would oxidise quickly
only dilute solution of ammonium salts, but even 22 per cent. nitrate in the
solution did not interfere with the process. Consequently, by sending the
ammonium sulphate solution five times through the peat beds there was finally
obtained a solution containing 41.7 g. of Ca(N03)2 per litre.

Yield—6.5 kg. of Ca(N03)2 in twenty-four hours per cubic metre of peat. The old
saltpetre plantations yielded 5 kg. KNO3 in two years per cubic metre.



DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR BUREAU OF MINES
Bulletin 16

Charles A Davis
The uses of peat for fuel and other purposes.
1911

NITRATES.

Peat has also been proposed as a means for the intensive
production of nitrates on the following principle pointed out by
Muntz and Laine. A culture bed of peat, watered with a dilute
(0.75 per cent) solution of ammonium sulphate, then inoculated
with nitrifying organisms and kept at a temperature of 38° C.,
yields, after a time, nitrates to the amount of 0.82 per cent. By
repeating the application of ammonium sulphate five times, the
quantity of nitrates developed amounts to more than 4 per cent.
This may be washed from the bed and purified. The peat may then
be used for fuel or for distillation. Whether this process is adapted
to the commercial production of nitrates on a large scale is not yet
demonstrated, but in view of the rare occurrence and limited
supplies of these salts, so vitally important in agriculture, it
presents possibilities of great importance if the facts relative to
nitrogen fixation are as stated. The fact that all of the world's
supply of grain alcohol is obtained by the action of microorganisms
on sugar solutions, often of considerable dilution, points strongly
to the conclusion that no great difficulty would be met in applying
to commercial operations the principle stated by the authors
quoted. If, however, the only change effected is to convert to a
nitrate the nitrogen compound supplied to the peat from
ammonia, the value of the process is questionable.



Industrial and manufacturing chemistry: a practical treatise, Volume 1
By Geoffrey Martin
1912

Thus Muntz and Laine (Compt. rend., 1905, 141, 861 ; 1906, 142,
430, 1239) impregnated peat with sufficient lime to combine with
the nitric acid formed, and then inoculated it with nitrifying
bacteria and passed through it a 0.75 per cent. solution of
ammonium sulphate (NH4)2SO4, at 30° C., thereby obtaining a I
per cent. solution of calcium nitrate, Ca(NO2)2. The bacteria
would oxidise quickly only dlilute solution of ammonium salts, but
even 22 per cent. nitrate in the solution did not interfere with the
process. Consequently, by sending the ammonium sulphate
solution five times through the peat beds there was finally
obtained a solution containing 41.7 e. of Ca(NO2)2 per litre.


Yield.—6.5 kg. of Ca(NOs)2 in twenty-four hours per cubic metre
of peat. The old saltpetre plantations yielded 5 kg. KXO2 in two
years per cubic metre.


Trnasactions of THE INSTITUTION OF MINING ENGINEERS.
VOL. XXXI.-1905-1906.

PEAT-MOSSES AND THE INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION OF NITRATES.


1j Utilixalion de* TmirliHre* pour la Production inteturire des
Xilrate*. By A. Mxntz and E. Laink. Comple*-rendv
hefalomndaire* ilex Stances de I'Aratli'mie den Science*, 1906,
vol. cxlii., page* 1239-1244. The authors have made experiments
with peat from Holland, from Picardy, and from the borders of
Burgundy, varying in character from the spongy surface-peat to
the compact bottom-peat, by dividing the material into small
fragments, mixing it with an appropriate amount of calcium
carbonate, sprinkling it with living micro-organisms, and finally
adding ammonium sulphate. The material thus treated becomes
the seat of extraordinarily active nitrification, surpassing anything
of the kind that the authors had observed in the course of previous
experiments with other substances. The quantity of nitrate which
an acre of peat feet thick) would produce in a year, according to
their results, would exceed 19,425 tons. The phenomenon is
remarkable for the rapidity with which it takes place, this
nitrification of peat being comparable with tumultuous alcoholic
fermentation.

On the whole, the light and spongy, less decomposed varieties of
peat are more active in this respect, perhaps because air
circulates therein more freely, liquids are displaced more
methodically, and the vastly increased surface presented by the
filaments affords multiplied points of lodgment to micro-
organisms. It is shown, then, that with a comparatively simple
installation enormous quantities of ammoniacal salts can be
transformed within a very short time into nitrates. One drawback
which the authors at first found was the necessity of using a very
dilute solution of ammonium sulphate, in order not to hamper the
action of the nitrifying micro-organisms. This was subsequently
obviated by passing flic same liquid over a succession of
peat-surfaces, adding ammonium sulphate as it passed from each
to the next in succession. The liquid became gradually charged
with nitrate, the proportion of ammonia remaining always
insufficient to counteract the action of the nitrifying organisms. At
the fifth passage of the liquid, the amount, of contained nitrate
was more than five times what it was at the first, and even that
does not represent the utmost possible degree of enrichment.
Consequently, the authors consider that the use of peat solves the
problem of the industrial production of saltpetre, with economy
and rapidity, on a large scale.

Heat is an important factor in nitrification, and the authors found
that the most favourable temperature was about 86° Fahr. If the
nitrate-factory were set up in the immediate neighbourhood of a
peat-moss, obviously the peat itself would, under the
circumstances, be the cheapest and most readily available fuel.
Only one point remained to be settled, that was, whether a
sufficient quantity of ammoniacal salts could be extracted from the
peat itself to furnish the nitrifiable matter. In the dry distillation of
peat, a large proportion of the nitrogen evidently remains in the
coke; but, if peat be distilled in a current of superheated steam,
almost the whole of the contained nitrogen can be obtained in the
form of ammonia. The peat-mosses of France alone could, on this
hypothesis, yield millions of tons of nitrate, and vie in their output
with the great nitrate-deposits of Chile. Still greater is the yield to
be expected from the peat-mosses which cover so vast an extent
in many countries of Northern Europe, and therefore we can afford
to contemplate with equanimity, either the possible cessation of
nitrate-imports from South America, or the exhaustion of the
Chilian deposits. L. L. B.


densest - 1-6-2010 at 13:40

Thanks to The WIZard for the clue: Comp. Rend. Acad. Sci. Paris, 142, 1239-. 1244. MUNTZ, A., ET LAINE, E. 1906b Recherches sur la nitrification intensive.

A good pdf scan of this was posted "recently" - I've had no luck searching for it :mad:

Critical points that I remember: lots of surface area from the peat moss. Very good aeration. A good culture of nitrifying bacteria (which can be worked up from farmyard dirt). Continued moisture but not enough to cause loss of aeration.

Given the results reported in this article the traditional methods for producing nitrate from manure, etc., used conditions about as unsuitable as possible for good yield and quick results. The only property of a manure pile which would be useful is warmth in cold weather. Exclusion of air and lack of water movement are very bad for the process.

I suspect, but have only very indirect evidence, that a dilute slurry of excreta kept sufficiently aerobic would quickly lose its smell. This is how a composting toilet works, for instance.

Hmmmmmmm.... check the output of a Clivus Multrum for nitrate content. It makes good fertilizer.

Pig & cattle farms produce immense quantities of liquid waste which has to be disposed of somehow. It's very nutrient-rich so it would be a good feedstock for a process which (for instance) recovered phosphate and nitrate in usable form. Rich, I tell you, it'll make us rich!



[Edited on 1-6-2010 by densest]

[Edited on 1-6-2010 by densest]

The WiZard is In - 1-6-2010 at 13:59

Quote: Originally posted by densest  
Pig & cattle farms produce immense quantities of liquid waste which has to be disposed of somehow. It's very nutrient-rich so it would be a good feedstock for a process which (for instance) recovered phosphate and nitrate in usable form. Rich, I tell you, it'll make us rich!
[Edited on 1-6-2010 by densest]



Methane.

Where would the phosphate come from?

Bird guano from fish eating birds was the chief source
of phosphate, now radioactive Florida rock phosphate.
is used.

I recommend :—

George Evelyn Hutchinson's 554-page opus.
Survey of Contemporary Knowledge of Biogeochemistry
3. The Biogeochemistry of Vertebrate Excretion
Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History
Volume 96. New York : 1950

Some years back the AMNH was scanning all of their
Bulletins and putting them on line. I do not know if
this has been done-did yet.

IrC - 1-6-2010 at 15:07

The obvious is being overlooked. Putting ashes from a wood fire with the crap and circulating hot water through it for a while is how you make KNO3 starting with the materials he wishes to use. This method is as old as antiquity. Somewhat under 10 percent of wood ashes is potassium carbonate so you will need 10 times more wood ashes. IIRC you are also making calcium nitrate from it's carbonate as well so thought should be given to separation/purifying methods. Or I could be wrong about that it has been decades since I last looked into this method and I do not recall mention of separating calcium nitrate. Maybe the KNO3 reaction happens more rapidly you chemical guru's can chime in on that one.

Also the type of wood burned is important, some types of trees give much more than 10 percent potassium to the reaction.

To summarize:

Good shit,
Good wood ashes,
Good hot water.

I barely remember a pic where the guy used a PVC pipe standing up loaded in layers of the material and water slowly came down through it, being drained slowly from the bottom. This solution is filtered, and purified/crystallized KNO3 is produced from the resulting solution. He did complain a lot about it plugging up but I have no memory of his fix on that one. Maybe someone can find mention of this in one of those old anarchist cookbooks. I do remember this subject being covered in one.

Later you can add brimstone and more ashes not so completely burned and build Chinese fireworks. This all sounds so alchemical it makes one wonder how they lived before the internet.

"Where is my good friend Aurelain is now that I need him?"

I could be wrong but I think he is dead by now.


[Edited on 6-1-2010 by IrC]

ScienceSquirrel - 1-6-2010 at 15:12

That is all very well but it is old and nasty chemistry.
Running the liquid process on a realistic scale will require a large tank of maybe 30 litres in size containing a filter bed of peat or gravel and fitted with a pump.
It will have to be fed with fertiliser grade ammonium sulphate and calcium carbonate in the form of garden lime until a nitrate rich liquor is produced.
As an alternative to ammonium sulphate as a raw material piss is free but the sodium chloride would make the separation and crystallisation of the product harder.
Then treatment with potassium carbonate will make the final potassium nitrate solution to be concentrated and crystallised.
It will be a big and energy hungry plant but the raw materials are absolutely unrestricted everywhere and it would make potassium nitrate.
Go get it Wiz!

[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]

IrC - 1-6-2010 at 15:17

The guy I remember doing this used the most simple home built small scale setup and made useful amounts of KNO3 for his purposes. Do not know why you keep pushing the mega scale approach unless the guy is looking for tons of "good shit".

Was that a pun?

densest - 1-6-2010 at 15:48

Mega-scale is interesting because manure disposal is a big problem and a "drop-in" reactor with useful output (methane, nitrate fertilizer, etc.) could be very profitable and very good for the environment.

Phosphorous is mostly found in bird manure but can be a problem in any manure stream.

Methane output requires anaerobic conditions. I don't know how much urea is left at the end of that process.
The tests in the French paper used ammonium sulfate because that was a by-product of coke, coal gas, etc. The manure stream would require encouraging the right bacteria to convert proteins and urea to ammonia.

If one could get both out it would use the cellulose and the protein/urea - very efficient!
One might first settle out most of the solids and put the liquid onto the moss bed. The solids digested aerobically briefly by mixing in sawdust, grass clippings, etc, for air passages and the liquid drained to the moss bed, and the remainder put in a methane digester. There wouldn't be much left except water & salts.

As I said before, a Clivus Multrum composting toilet has a smell but far less of one than you'd expect. The keys are the right bacteria and aerobic conditions.

For a backyard scale operation, an aquarium water pump or two should be sufficient.

ScienceSquirrel - 1-6-2010 at 16:04

Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
The obvious is being overlooked. Putting ashes from a wood fire with the crap and circulating hot water through it for a while is how you make KNO3 starting with the materials he wishes to use. This method is as old as antiquity. Somewhat under 10 percent of wood ashes is potassium carbonate so you will need 10 times more wood ashes. IIRC you are also making calcium nitrate from it's carbonate as well so thought should be given to separation/purifying methods. Or I could be wrong about that it has been decades since I last looked into this method and I do not recall mention of separating calcium nitrate. Maybe the KNO3 reaction happens more rapidly you chemical guru's can chime in on that one.

Also the type of wood burned is important, some types of trees give much more than 10 percent potassium to the reaction.

To summarize:

Good shit,
Good wood ashes,
Good hot water.

I barely remember a pic where the guy used a PVC pipe standing up loaded in layers of the material and water slowly came down through it, being drained slowly from the bottom. This solution is filtered, and purified/crystallized KNO3 is produced from the resulting solution. He did complain a lot about it plugging up but I have no memory of his fix on that one. Maybe someone can find mention of this in one of those old anarchist cookbooks. I do remember this subject being covered in one.

Later you can add brimstone and more ashes not so completely burned and build Chinese fireworks. This all sounds so alchemical it makes one wonder how they lived before the internet.

"Where is my good friend Aurelain is now that I need him?"

I could be wrong but I think he is dead by now.


[Edited on 6-1-2010 by IrC]


You are going to try this? :)
Raw turds contain nitrogen as amine type material and not a lot of that, there is only trace amounts of nitrate present.
The reason the old documents refer to the use of so much fermented piss aka lant is that it contains ammonia which is oxidised in the heap or peat bed to form nitrate.
The raw materials contain very little nitrate, it is formed by the aerobic respiration of the correct bacteria.
We eat carbohydrates and turn out carbon dioxide, they eat ammonia and make nitrate.
The reason that calcarous earth or carbonate of lime is used is that it is a cheap mild base and it soaks up the sulphate as slightly soluble calcium sulphate if you use ammonium sulphate as the feed stock.
The reaction media must not be too acid or alkaline or it would block the reactions so a mild base to buffer the reaction media to a good soil type pH makes sense.



[Edited on 2-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]

digesteth, fermenteth, and ripeneth

The WiZard is In - 1-6-2010 at 16:29

digesteth, fermenteth, and ripeneth

The old method of obtaining saltpetre was to collect vegetable and animal refuse
containing nitrogen, the sweepings of slaughter- houses, weeds, etc., into heaps
and to mix this with limestone, old mortar, earth and ashes. These heaps were
sheltered from the rain, and kept moist from time to time with runnings from
stables and other urine.

As late as in the reign of James I (1624), we find in an indenture between the
King and Thomas Warricke, Peter Sparke, Michael Townshend and John Fells,
the statement that " for making of the saltpetre which hath been formerly and
now is made it has been found a matter of mere necessity to dig houses, cellars,
vaults, stables, dovehouses and such like places, wherewith divers of his
Majesty's subjects have found themselves grieved. " We are also informed that
the conveyance of the liquors, vessels, tubs, ashes, etc, from place to place in
carts had been a frequent source of nuisance and litigation.

The above persons purporting to have invented a new process for making
saltpetre undertake to make it " as good and perfect as any hath formerly been,
and shall be vented at cheaper and easier rates than formerly his Majesty or his
loving subjects have paid for-the same, which said saltpetre as His Majesty is
informed is to be or may be made of an artificial mixture or composition of chalk,
all sorts of limestone and lime, marl, divers minerals, and other nitrous mines
and other kind of ordinary earth, street dirt, or rubbish, stable dung, emptying of
vaults, the excrements of all living creatures, their bodies putrified, all vegetables
putrified or rotted, or the ashes, of them, and these or any of these mixed
together in proportion as they may be most conveniently had, and shall be found
most useful in such places where the said works shall be thought fit to be
erected, which said artificial mixture or composition of any or all the foresaid
ingredients is often times moistened with urine of men and beasts, petre, or
nitrous wells, and springs, and all other concrete juices and blood of all sorts as
can be gotten, and shall be fit and convenient for it, and divers times turned and
removed, by which means the mixture in time digesteth, fermenteth, and
ripeneth, from whence there is engendered the seed or mine of saltpetre which
afterwards is to be extracted with common water, urine, the water of petre or
nitrous wells, and springs, and then either breathed away in the sun or air, or
stoved with gentle heat or boiled with a stronger fire with his proper additament
of ashes, lime, and such like for separating the common salt and other mixtures
naturally growing in the liquor and afterwards refined into perfect saltpetre. "

The King then granted the patentees licence to exercise their invention for a term
of twenty-one years and to set up houses for preparing the artificial earth, etc.

On 26th December of the same year " was issued a proclamation, commanding
that no dovehouses or cellars be paved, except that part of the cellars where the
wine and beer is laid, in order that the growth of saltpetre might not be
obstructed." (Patent Roll, 22 James I, part 4, No. 9 dorso.)


The Rise and Progress of the British Explosives Industry
Published under the auspices of the:-
VIIth International Congress of Applied Chemistry
E A Brayley Hodgetts editor
Whittaker and Co. London 1909

placing their tubs by the bedside of the old and sick

The WiZard is In - 1-6-2010 at 16:35


1630, 14th February. Sir Francis Seymour to Secretary Coke. The saltpetre men
care not in whose houses they dig, threatening men that by their commission
they may dig in any man's house, in any room, and at any time, which will prove
a great grievance to the country. In the town where the writer lives they have
digged up some malting rooms, and threaten to dig more. They dig up the
entries and halls of divers men. If any oppose them they break up men's houses
and dig by force. They make men carry their saltpetre at a groat a mile, and take
their carriages in sowing time and harvest, with many other oppressions. Hopes
that these men may not be allowed to strain their commission. The saltpetre
man's name for Wilts is Hellyer. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxi, No. i.)

1630, 20th February. Petition of Hugh Grove, Deputy for making saltpetre to the
Lords of the Admiralty. Complains of Thomas Stallam and others of Thetford for
refusing to carry saltpetre liquors. Prays that they may be sent for by warrant. (S.
P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxi,,No. 35)

1630, 6th March. Gabriel Dowse and others to the Lords of the Admiralty. The
complaints of wrongs committed by Stevens the saltpetre man are so great that
they had not been able to reduce them into method. Pray a respite of their
certificate for a fortnight or three weeks. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxii, No. 40'

1630, 23rd March. Thos. Bond to Nicholas. Understands Lords of the Admiralty
have referred the collection of the proofs against the saltpetre men to two
knights. . . . saltpetre men make their vaunts that they will get their Iiberty and
carry themselves in the country as formerly. . . . If the saltpetre men go down
without redress of wrongs it will despair into the heart of the country.... (S. P.
Dom. Charles vol. clxiii, No. 40)

1630 30th April. Sir William Russell, Sir John Wolsterholme, and Sir Kenelm
Digby to the Lords of the Admiralty. Report on consideration of the complaints
and examinations sent in against Mr. Hilliard and Mr. Stephens, saltpetre men
and their servants. According to the proofs there is no part of their commission
which they have not extremely abused. As in digging in all places without
distinction, as in parlours, bedchambers, threshing and malting floors yea, God's
own house they have not forborne; so they respect not times, digging in the
breeding time in dovehouses, and working sometimes a month together,
whereby the flights of doves are destroyed; and without respect to harvest time
in barns and in malting houses, when green malt is upon the floor; and
bedchambers, placing their tubs by the bedside of the old and sick, even of
women in childbed, and persons on their death-beds. They have undermined
walls, and seldom fill up the places they have digged. In taking up, cart they
observe no seasons, and charge more carts than are needful, discharging some
again for bribes, and overload the carts they employ. They do not pay the prices
for carriage required by the commission. They take up coals not only where they
a sold but from those that have fetched them 20 or 30 miles by land for their own
winter's provision. They recommend that the offenders should be punished, and
that the commission be taken in, and a new one made out, with restrictions
designed to put an end to the abuses complained of (S. P. Dom. Charles 11 vol.
clxv, No. 38.)

1630, 26th June. Petition of Nicholas Stephens, Deputy saltpetre men to the
Lords of the Admiralty. The Lords having directed Attorney General to proceed
against him in the especially in the charge of digging in the Norton, he begs them
to consider the declaration annexed, to withdraw the order for proceeding in the
Star Chamber.

Annexing the declaration above alluded to. At a time great want of saltpetre he
removed only some waste and unnecessary part of the soil of the church of
Chipping Norton, as with the concurrence of the parishioners and ministers he
had done in the churches of Coventry, Warwick, and Oxford. Other digging was
done in his absence by his servant, whom he cast into Oxford gaol, and made
satisfaction to the parishioners. (S. Dom. Charles I, vol. clx, No. 46.)

1630, July. Petition of Thomas Hilliard, one of the saltpetre men, on behalf of
himself and his servants to the Lords of the Admiralty. By commission dated April
28, 5 Charles I, they were authorized to work for petre in the houses of any of
His Majesty's subjects, and within privileged places. About January last,
petitioner's workmen endeavoured to dig in the pigeon house of Thomas Bond,
who disobeyed the commission, and complained against petitioner, and in
February last procured him and his workmen to be sent for by warrant. They
have ever since remained prisoners. Pray to be dismissed. (S. P. Dom. Charles
I, vol. clxxi, No. 79.)

1631, 16th March. Thomas Thornhill to the Lords of the Admiralty. He complains
of endeavours made to prevent the search for saltpetre, by laying soap ashes on
the earth, paving cellars with stone, or filling them with gravel. (S. P. Dom
Charles I, vol. clxxxvi, No. 102.)

1631, April. Requests of Stephen Barrett, John Vincent, Thomas Hilliard, and five
others, the Deputies of the Lords of the Admiralty for making saltpetre, to the
same Lords. It being the pleasure of the Lords to renew or alter the Commission
under which the Deputies act, they set forth certain provisions which they desire
to have inserted in the new Commission for their defence. Among other things, if
forbidden to dig in bedrooms, they desire not to be debarred from digging in
other rooms in dwelling houses; also that owners of dove houses and stables
should be prohibited from adopting measures which, prevent the growth of
saltpetre; that owners of carriages may still be compellable to carry the saltpetre
at 4d. a mile; that the Deputies may take- wood ashes wherever found at a
certain reasonable price; with other provisions framed in the same spirit. (S. P.
Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxxxix, No. 89.)

1631, 14th June. Matthew Goad, Deputy Clerk of the Star Chamber, to the
judges of the same Court. Certificate that in the cause of John Morley and others
against Thos. Hilliard and others, it is confessed in the answers of the
defendants that some of them dug for saltpetre under the beds of persons who
were sick therein, that compositions were taken for discharge of carts
commanded to carry saltpetre, that Hilliard hired horses to draw his wife's coach
up and down the country at the King's price, and caused the country to carry
coals for the work of saltpetre, and sold the same again to his own advantage.
(S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cxciii, No. 83.)

1634, 14th March. A proclamation for the preservation of the mines of saltpetre.
No dovehouse or dovecot or cellar to be paved, and no stables pitched paved or
gravelled, where horse feet stand, but planked only. (Rymer's " Foedera," xix, p.
601.)

18th March. The Lords of the Admiralty to the Governor and Company of
Soapboilers. Give orders that the saltpetre men are to have the pre-emption of
wood ashes, on the ground that saltpetre is a commodity of such necessary use
for the King and Public that it ought to be preferred before the making of soap.
(S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxiii, No. i.)

1634, 15th November. Richard Bagnall, slatpeter man to Nicholas. Sends
enclosed list of names of those who have lately carried forth their earth in their
pigeon houses. If some course be not taken others will do the same, and it will
be impossible for the saltpetre men to supply their great proportions, besides
destroying the mine. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, Vol. cclxxvii, No. 52.)

Annexed list (52. i) above mentioned. It contains names of persons in cos.
Oxford and Warwick.

1634, 2nd December. Petition of John Giffard, saltpetre man to the Lords of the
Admiralty. His hindrances by refusal of people in Gloucester to carry coal from
the adjacent pits to his boiling-house in Thornburg; also because they carry off
the earth from their pigeon-houses to manure their lands. (S. P. Dom. Charles I,
Vol. cclxxviii, No. 4-)

1634, 26th November. The Lords of the Admiralty to Montjoy Earl of Newport.
His Majesty is resolved to take into his hands and disposition all the gunpowder
made of the saltpetre of the kingdom, for better furnishing his occasions and
those of his subjects. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxxvii, No. 96.)

1634, 2nd December. Petition of John Giffard, saltpetre man to the Lords of the
Admiralty. His hindrances by refusal of people in Gloucester to carry coal from
the adjacent pits to his boilinghouse in Thornburg; also because they carry off
the earth from their pigeon-houses to manure their lands. (S. P. Dom. Charles I,
vol. cclxxviii, No- 4.)

1635, 18th April. Admiralty order to enquire concerning complaints of Thomas
Thornhill that divers persons in Somerset, contrary to proclamations, have
carried forth the earth out of their dovehouses, and divers inn-keepers have
paved their stables, by which practices the mine of saltpetre is destroyed. (S. P.
Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxiv, f. 115-)

1637, 3rd June. Articles exhibited to the Commissioners for Saltpetre by
Christopher Wren, Dean of Windsor, and Rector of Knoyle Magna or Epicopi,
Wilts, against Thomas Thornhill, saltpetreman, for damage done by digging for
saltpetre in the pigeon-house of the said rectory. There have been two diggings
in this pigeon-house, one by Helyar, whom Thornhill then served, about eight
years ago, the other by Thornhill in March, 1636-7. On the first occasion, the
pigeon-house, built of massy stone walls 20 ft. high, was so shaken that the
Rector was forced to buttress tip the east side thereof. On the last occasion the
foundation was undermined, and the north wall fell in. The loss to the Rector had
been that of three breeds, whereof the least never yielded fewer than -o or 4o
dozen, and of the whole flight, which forsook the house, and the Rector stands
endangered to the law for dilapidations. Thornhill has refused all recompense,
telling the Dean that the King must bear him out. The Dean desires that Thornhill
may make full recompense according to the King's pleasure signified on behalf
of the Dean, who is registrar of the Garter, at the last chapter of the Order in
Whitehall on 18th April last. Underwritten:

8.1. Order of the Lords that Thornhill answer these articles by that day sennight.
Whitehall, 3rd June, 1637(S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. ccclxi, No. 8.)


The Rise and Progress of the British Explosives Industry
Published under the Congress of Applied Chemistry
by it Explosives Section
London: Whittaker and Co.
1909

ScienceSquirrel - 1-6-2010 at 16:50

Another recipe for making nitre from poo, piss, etc mixed with earth but with added blood, etc.
That should certainly draw in the flies or worse the FBI to see if you are playing at being Hannibal Lector in the 'burbs.
i like the use of urine as the extraction solvent.
Unless your neighbours are the Clampets they are really going to object to gallons of piss boiling in your outhouse and even they might object "Doggone it Elly May can you smell that there varmint boiling piss next door, ah tell you it sure don't smell like sour mash whisky!"

IrC - 1-6-2010 at 16:58

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  
"You are going to try this? :)"


No I'm not the one asking how to make it. I still have 10 LBs of KNO3 I have never decided on a use for.

Even if I had none I would find some cheap rather than deal with slushy smelly crapola.

The WiZard is In - 1-6-2010 at 17:03

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  

Unless your neighbours are the Clampets they are really going to object to gallons of piss boiling in your outhouse and even they might object "Doggone it Elly May can you smell that there varmint boiling piss next door, ah tell you it sure don't smell like sour mash whisky!"



Extracted from:

Eduard Farber
Bulletin 240: Contribution from the Museum of History and Technology
Paper 40 HISTORY OF PHOSPHORUS



The Element from Animals and Plants

It was a little late to search for the philosophers' stone in 1669, yet it was in
such a search that phosphorus was discovered. Wilhelm Homberg (1652-1715)
described it in the following mariner: Brand, "a man little known, of low birth, with
a bizarre and mysterious nature in all he did, found this luminous matter while
searching for something else. He was a glassmaker by profession, but he had
abandoned it in order to be free for the pursuit of the philosophical stone with
which he was engrossed. Having put it into his mind that the secret of the
philosophical stone consisted in the preparation of urine, this man worked in all
kinds of manners and for a very long time without finding anything. Finally, in the
year 1669, after a strong distillation of urine, he found in the recipient a luminant
matter that has since been called phosphorus. He showed it to some of his
friends, among them Mister Kunkel [sic]." 1


To obtain phosphorus, a good proportion of coal (regarded as a type of
phlogiston) was added to urine, previously thickened by evaporation and
preferably after putrefaction, and the mixture was heated to the highest
attainable temperature. It was obvious that phIogiston entered into the
composition of the distillation product. The question remained whether this
product was generated de nova. In his research of 1743 to 1746, Andreas
Sigismund Marggraf (1709-1782) provided the answer. He found the new sub-
stance in edible plant seeds, and he concluded that it enters the human system
through the plant food, to be excreted later in the urine. He did not convince all
the chemists with his reasoning. In 1789, Macquer wrote: "There are some who,
even at this time, hold that the phosphorical ('phosphorische') acid generates
itself in the animals and who consider this to be the animalistic acid." 7


entropy51 - 1-6-2010 at 17:31

Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  
Two young women came over to flirt with me (In the
mid-70's I was a competetive bicycler and thus I had good legs under
the kilt, had long flowing hair and beard, and cut a good figure of a
man). ....snip.... Suddenly her freind was not so happy either! So she
reached down, and grabbed a handful of the mixture, and flung it at
first one, and hit her full on the halter top, right on her -- shall we
say -- most curvacious anatomy.
Cows may come and cows may go, but the bullshit goes on forever.

At least now we now what scatalogical fantasies turn this fine figure of a Wizard on.

ScienceSquirrel - 2-6-2010 at 04:03

It was actually Hennig Brandt, note the t he was German :), that first isolated phosphorous by the reduction of sodium ammonium phosphate aka microcosmic salt or stercorite obtained from urine.
Just putting up huge lumps of stuff without any attempt at checking facts or critical analysis is not science and in some cases it is not even relevant or interesting.

The WiZard is In - 2-6-2010 at 04:51

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  
It was actually Hennig Brandt, note the t he was German :),



From my post -

"Wilhelm Homberg (1652-1715)
described it in the following mariner: Brand, "a man little known, of low birth, with
a bizarre and mysterious nature in all he did, found this luminous matter while
searching for something else.

ScienceSquirrel - 2-6-2010 at 05:08

Brandt is a common German surname, Brand is not and occurs as a 20th century Anglicisation.
I guess that somebody fed the original text through an OCR program and did not do all the corrections.
Note the use of mariner instead of manner as well, look up Hennig Brandt on the internet and you will find that it is the correct spelling of his name.
Quoting huge chunks of 300 year old stuff without any critical analysis at all is worse than SWIM-ing in my opinion.
Note that this is a SCIENCE forum, not a place for bibulous old farts to get their rocks off fantasising about young women having poo fights :)

[Edited on 2-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]

The WiZard is In - 2-6-2010 at 05:22

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  
It was actually Hennig Brandt, note the t he was German :),



From my post -

"Wilhelm Homberg (1652-1715)
described it in the following mariner: Brand, "a man little known, of low birth, with
a bizarre and mysterious nature in all he did, found this luminous matter while
searching for something else. "


For a most complete description of Brand's discovery and a lot
of other stuff, I recommend —

John Emsley
The 13th Element : The Sordid Tale of Murder, Fire, and Phosphorus
John Wiley & Sons
2000

It is an easy read.

ScienceSquirrel - 2-9-2010 at 11:30

Check out E Numbers: An Edible Adventure episode 2 on BBC2 on 2/9/2010
It deals with preservatives and they extract potassium nitrate from horse shit and ashes.
One big bucket yields a small amount.
They go on to use it to make their own bacon and gunpowder.
It's great!

It gets better, he extracts E number chemicals from his own 'body materials' and makes a cake with them.

Yum yum or yuck yuck?

[Edited on 2-9-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]

psychokinetic - 2-9-2010 at 22:23

I don't mind it coming from there, but I don't think I could eat it if I was a part of the process.... knowingly, anyway.

hissingnoise - 3-9-2010 at 11:23

Quote:
It deals with preservatives and they extract potassium nitrate from horse shit and ashes.
They go on to use it to make their own bacon and gunpowder.

The crude KNO3 looked quite yellow. . .
Recrystallisations would have helped!
Of course, he pissed on the horse-shit too, before leaching.
Hmmm, mixed showers - ughhh. . .

blogfast25 - 9-9-2010 at 09:08

I was watching that 'E numbers adventure yesterday'. Apart from the 'Supersize me!' style 'let's get stuffed on E numbers' part, it was really quite interesting. I'm guessing he got about 50 g of KNO3 from two bucket loads of matured horse dung, not too bad at all...

homemade KNO3

maliveline - 27-11-2014 at 10:48



I was reading that you can make potassium nitrate by taking manure and urinating on it and then adding water and sealing the container and letting it react for like 10 months. You then would drain liquid out of the bottom onto drying sheets and let the moisture evaporate.
Is this a viable method for synthesizing potassium nitrate? Has anyone here ever tried this? My issue is it seems pretty nasty but the best deal to get potassium nitrate around here is stump remover and at 5 bucks a pound its really not that great of a deal. Also how would you even go about figuring the correct ratio of urine manure and water lol.

Marvin - 27-11-2014 at 10:53

Not really. There are better methods that involve building towers of straw and earth but you will be able to find fertiliser grade potassium nitrate if you search.

phlogiston - 27-11-2014 at 11:14

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13904#...

IMO you'd be have to be quite desperate.
Just spend the time delivering newspapers and spend the money on stump remover. Be thankful can just be bought OTC.

j_sum1 - 27-11-2014 at 16:56

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13904#...

IMO you'd be have to be quite desperate.
Just spend the time delivering newspapers and spend the money on stump remover. Be thankful can just be bought OTC.
Yeah but if you are chasing 250 euros in a nitric acid comp then it might be worth it.

macckone - 27-11-2014 at 17:41

An easier method is making the nitric acid
By burning ammonia or even a electric arc
From atmospheric nitrogen.
Then react the nitric acid with potassium carbonate.

Bert - 27-11-2014 at 18:07
Quote:

I was reading that you can make potassium nitrate by taking manure and urinating on it and then adding water and sealing the container and letting it react for like 10 months.


The process is aerobic, a sealed jar will not allow the organisms required for the creation and then oxidation of ammonia to function

It's not a viable method for anyone who does not live on a farm/have a large enough area for a good sized compost pile without neighbors objecting... Even then, it would make your $5.00/lb. potassium nitrate seem like a good value.

I am going to merge this thread into THIS THREAD, see the information provided by The WiZard is In on use of peat for saltpetre production...

maliveline - 27-11-2014 at 20:38

ya sounds like a nightmare. i still say 5 bucks a pound is a joke though, and its probably gone up since last time i went to buy it.

Little_Ghost_again - 28-11-2014 at 10:14

Fish make it quickly, in my tanks they excrete ammonia, the filter turns this into nitrite then nitrate, what kind I have no idea but if it starts with ammonia then surely it end with ammonium nitrate?
Just a thought

Amos - 28-11-2014 at 18:32

Old resources that I've looked at for making homemade potassium nitrate state that the nitrates produced from fermenting human urine are largely calcium nitrate, allowing one to precipitate calcium carbonate by addition of potassium carbonate(from wood ashes) and crystallize out the KNO3.

Oh, and look, the french method says so too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate#French_method

nlegaux - 29-11-2014 at 09:30

Around here they used to mine bat guano for making gun powder :)

Bert - 29-11-2014 at 11:11

Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  
Fish make it quickly, in my tanks they excrete ammonia, the filter turns this into nitrite then nitrate, what kind I have no idea but if it starts with ammonia then surely it end with ammonium nitrate?
Just a thought


There was an ongoing thread regarding just this process on a pyrotechnic list a few years back. Organisms required for each stage of the conversion were identified, and some preliminary investigation was done on replacing the traditional manure pile with a large drum of water/waste byproducts with an aerator- I do not recall a final effective design emerging from this work. I do seem to recall that the organisms had a maximum level of ammonia they would tolerate which was fairly low, but a maximum tolerance for dissolved nitrate (final product) that was quite high-

This could be "fertile ground" for an amateur to explore...

Zephyr - 29-11-2014 at 21:24

I don't know if this has been covered already, but why bother with extraction from freces when it is mush easier and *slightly less gross to extract potassium nitrate from urine?

This was publish on request of the Chief of the Department of the Military in 1862, and can be easily and very cheaply be replicated on a small scale.
"SWISS METHOD.

The method practiced by the small farmers in Switzerland is very simple, requires little or no care, and is admirably adapted to the hilly portions of our State.

A stable with a board floor is built on the slope of a hill (a northern slope is best), with one end resting on the ground, while the other is elevated, several feet, thus allowing the air to circulate freely below. Beneath the stable a pit, two or three feet deep, and conforming to the slope of the hill, is dug and filled with porous sand, mixed with ashes or old mortar. The urine of the animals is absorbed by the porous sand, becomes nitrified, and is fit for leaching in about two years. The exhausted earth is returned to the pit, to undergo the same process again. This leached earth induces nitrification much more rapidly than fresh earth; so that after the first crop the earth may be leached regularly every year. A moderate-sized stable yields with every leaching about one thousand pounds of saltpetre."

http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/lecontesalt/leconte.html

chinchilla - 30-11-2014 at 15:17

Use a substrate comprising 25-35kg garden soil, peat moss and bone meal in no particular proportion. Innoculate the substrate with the macerated root of a legume. Spread it out on the garage floor in a disk approximately 80cm diameter and 10cm thick. Each day throughout the summer thoroughly disturb the pile and sift 30-40g wood ashes on it and sprinkle a solution of 4g urea dissolved in a few deciliters of water. At the end of the summer lixiviate the pile with approximately 30 liters of water. Concentrate the eluate to approximately 3 liters and isolate the salt peter with potassium carbonate. Obtain 700-900g potassium nitrate.

Bert - 30-11-2014 at 19:42

Quote: Originally posted by chinchilla  
Innoculate the substrate with the macerated root of a legume.


The organisms that fix atmospheric Nitrogen in legumes are not the organisms creating ammonia, nitrite and finally nitrate in compost.

chinchilla - 30-11-2014 at 22:23

I would submit to that, Bert. I figured the nitrosomonas and the nitrobacter would be close by the nodules. What i am not aware of is the bacteria that actually pull dinitrogen out of the air and fix it as ammonia.

chemrox - 1-12-2014 at 18:14

If it worked it would be quite and achievement in recycling and green chemistry. You'd have a cheap source of HNO3 but you might have to take a lot of shit! (This has surely become a scatological thread my friends).

chinchilla - 1-12-2014 at 19:35

I should not have made reference to the root of a lugume. It is the root of sweetclover that i use. This manufacture does work. I have conducted it for seven summers. The fascination lies in seeing earth, air and a bit of urea transformed into beautiful, white crystaline spars of potassium nitrate.