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KNO3 from feces
Well, I was looking for the easiest ways to make kno3, and it come to this: feces. I am able to have daily cat and dog feces production, maybe even
rabbit's feces. Which are the best, and please post a recipe if you have it. And I'm not kidding with this 
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Sedit
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Sounds like a shitty way to get KNO3 if ya ask me sorry couldnt resist
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Chainhit222
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Brainfevert (I believe) extracted KNO3 from soil that used to be in horse stables. He just washed it in water and did a recrystalization (maybe using
a seed crystal of KNO3 would be good). I believe that rabbit shit would be the best for the job. Cow and bat works well too I think. I don't think you
want to be dealing with cat shit.
The practice of storing bottles of milk or beer in laboratory refrigerators is to be strongly condemned encouraged
-Vogels Textbook of Practical Organic Chemistry
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Random
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It actually is a very shitty one, but someone has to do it hehe
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Random
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Quote: Originally posted by Chainhit222  | | Brainfevert (I believe) extracted KNO3 from soil that used to be in horse stables. He just washed it in water and did a recrystalization (maybe using
a seed crystal of KNO3 would be good). I believe that rabbit shit would be the best for the job. Cow and bat works well too I think. I don't think you
want to be dealing with cat shit. |
Cat shit is really bad, I'll just try rabbit shit then (or maybe I even find bat's toilet place so I'll mine it there ). I would just wash it in water and evaporate it, hoping to get some kno3 crystals.
After that maybe I could use one of these crystals as seed crystal for another purifying. Now I just have to ask my friend for rabbit dump 
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hissingnoise
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Random, is it a question of having to do it this way or is this some kind of survivalist exercise?
Erm, I tend to go for the easy option - like just buying it. . .
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not_important
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The subject has been brought up a number of times before, and there are several existing threads on it. For example:
this year
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13271
2007
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11388
2006
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=74&...
2005
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3986
and another recent repeat was in regards to "Nitric Acid by Soil Electrolysis"
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10511
Please learn to do some simple investigation before starting new threads, it will save you time in the end
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psychokinetic
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Lesson 441:
Don't read sciencemadness during dinner.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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Random
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| Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise | Random, is it a question of having to do it this way or is this some kind of survivalist exercise?
Erm, I tend to go for the easy option - like just buying it. . .
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It's some sort of caveman project
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Random
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Thanks for those threads, I thought this was a rare case of kno3 production so I didn't search. I will search in the future before making new threads,
but sometimes there is a thread about that and I can't find it. 
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not_important
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try searching using the 'advanced' search on Google, restricting the search to the www.sciencemadness.org domain. This not only lets you do fancier searches than the site's own search engine, but sometime the text on the search
results page shows enough to dismiss or mark it as interesting.
As for an idea being a rare case, I suspect there's a rule related to Rule 34 that applies to ideas in science.
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psychokinetic
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We need more rule 34 in science. But not in this thread, please. o.o'
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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Ephoton
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I always thought chicken shit was the go for this kind of thing.
e3500 console login: root
bash-2.05#
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12AX7
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Did someone say, Rule 34?
http://img.listal.com/image/400045/600full-kari-byron.jpg
Well, it's a start at least...
Tim
[Edited on 5-31-2010 by 12AX7]
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Ephoton
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did some one say rabbit here somewere
to crude get my ass kicked for that one
still I call rule 46 though.
make it furry.
[Edited on 31-5-2010 by Ephoton]
e3500 console login: root
bash-2.05#
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Chainhit222
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*waits for video of someone sodomizing a large flask & playing with a test tube*
The practice of storing bottles of milk or beer in laboratory refrigerators is to be strongly condemned encouraged
-Vogels Textbook of Practical Organic Chemistry
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Random
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*this reminds Random of two girls one cup video*
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ScienceSquirrel
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There are detailed instructions here;
http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/lecontesalt/leconte.html
The process is lengthy and disgusting with the tasting of the crude material as an assay method being particularly vile
I suspect that you could achieve a similar result more cleanly with a paddling pool or such like in an old shed.
You would make a large mound of earth and chalk mixed with dead leaves etc in the pool and water it with a weak solution of ammonium sulphate on a
regular basis and turning it from time to time.
The pile would get quite warm and this is desirable to maintain a good speed of reaction and it would smell though not disgustingly bad. Really it
would just be an overfed indoor compost heap.
Ammonium sulphate would convert in the heap to calcium nitrate and sulphate.
Alternatively you could use a large bucket, say five gallons, and keep it in the bottom of the airing cupboard, this would assume that you live alone!
Think warm, moist but not wet, plenty of oxygen; just like the man says!
After a year or so, leach the heap with gallons of hot water and boil down in an old Burco boiler or similar. Add potassium carbonate to form the
saltpetre and filter off the precipitated chalk.
Concentrate and crystallise!
[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]
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The WiZard is In
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Removed en bloc from rec.pyrotechnics
Tom Perigrin's KN03 Story
Many years ago, when I was a well muscled young man of my middle 20's,
I belonged to a Rennaisence Faire group called "Clan Collin". This
was a recreationist group that portryed a Scottish Mercenary Army of
the 16'th C. I played the part of the Artillary Officer.
Well, I decided that the Rennaisence Faire was too "prissy". Where was
the offal in the road? Where were the chamber pots? Where was the
raw sewage? So, I decided to re-enact a less salubrious part of 16'th
C life. I decided to extract saltpeter from manure and urine,
according to the procedure of Birringucchio (1540).
So, I got a half barrel, put it up on some bales of hay, drilled a
hole in the bottom of the side, and plugged it. Then I went out and
found some well dried horse dung, some oak ashes, and some lime. I
then put a 4-finger thick layer of manure in the barrel, followed by a
2-finger thick layer of ashes, and a 1-finger thick layer of lime. I
repeated that until the barrel was nearly full. Then, that evening,
after the Faire had closed, I had a few selected men of the clan pee in
the pot (this was pre-AIDS). This was allowed to set overnight, and
to begin it's ferment.
*flurp, blub, bubble*
The next Faire day (Sunday) opened to a hot and swealtering day, and
right in the middle of the first fork in the road there was a burley
Scotsman stirring a pot of rather foul smelling yellow-brown liquid.
This gig provided HUGE amusement to me and the Scots all through the
day. For example, there was the Sassenach (Southern English) Officer
who came to inspect what the Scots military was doing - I told him I
was making saltpeter, and before he could realize what was happening, I
had used my hand to scoop out a few unbroken lumps, and deposited them
in his hand. At first he didn't realize anything was "amiss". After
all, they were coated with ashes and lime and looked like light-weight
rocks. But as I described how "this be the most fullsome earth I could
find in the stables", and then as I lifted one up and broke it open and
said "Ach, but they no be broken up enough!", it dawned on him that he
had a handful of ... shit.
There we were, on stage, with several hundred people watching us. His
20'th C person was revolted! He had a handful of horse manure! But
his 16'th C character was "fascinated". So, he poked at it once or
twice, discussed the qualities of the English versus the Scottish
earths, and then dropped it back into the barrel. He leaned towards me
and used my sleeve to wipe off his hand (the least I could do), and
then said in a very quiet voice "Damn you!". All the while my
hangers-on were trying to prevent themselves from visably cracking
up...
But even more fun was the responses of the public! At first they would
be very interested. After all, here is a big burley guy stirring a pot
of something right in the middle of the fork in the road. This guy
WANTS to be noticed! They would come over and I would launch into my
spiel...
but after a while they began to twig. The terms "saltpeter", "earth",
"humours", "waters", and such were almost familar - and after a while
the color, the ODOR, and the words would all click, and they'd say "you
have a a bucket of SHIT? OH GROSS!". Only a few stayed after they
realized what was in the bucket...
But the MOST fun of the day was in the middle of the hotest part of the
afternoon. Two young women came over to flirt with me (In the
mid-70's I was a competetive bicycler and thus I had good legs under
the kilt, had long flowing hair and beard, and cut a good figure of a
man). These young women were drunk as skunks - it had been a HOT day,
and the ale went down easily.
So, here I am, with well mixed horse manure up to my elbows... flirting
with two lovelies with halter tops and shorts. And it seemed as if
they got into a flirting contest with each other (which I LOVED!).
First they chatted, but then one took her fingers and ran them up and
down the smooth silky looking liquid on my arm. Normally that would
have been a very very provocative gesture, but I had to tell her what
she did. At first she didn't understand... but finally she did -
"you mean that's horse shit?" "Aye, mixed with the waters of the men of
the company"
Suddenly, flirting was NO LONGER on her mind. She pulled back, and
looked as if she might leave, when her companion started laughing at
her distress. This was too much for her. She took her now dirty
fingers and wiped them on the shoulder of her friend. "Well how do
YOU like it?" Suddenly her freind was not so happy either! So she
reached down, and grabbed a handful of the mixture, and flung it at
first one, and hit her full on the halter top, right on her -- shall we
say -- most curvacious anatomy.
In the next 60 seconds things escalated even more. Suddenly liquid
manure and urine was flying in both directions, and screams and curses
were following. I stepped back against the tree behind me, and could
but watch in amazement as they flung handful after handful of foul
filth back and forth. Then they set into pushing and shoving, and
grappling, and ended up wrestling in the dust of the street. This dust
mixed with the handfuls of yellow muck to produce a most amazing cake
on each of them.
All this time the men and women of Clan Collin are howling with
laughter, and can hardly stand for the hilarity of it. I myself am
dumbfounded... I have never had two women fight over me before
(although, I think they were fighting not over me, but rather because
of their rivalry), and certainly I didn't look forward to embracing
the winner if it should come to that. But the fight came to an end,
they parted different ways without a backward glance to me, and I never
saw them again after that (But I did go home that night with the woman
who has been my wife now for one and twenty years, so that worked out
alright).
Finally, I filtered the liquids, and boiled them down, and recieved a
pound of crystals that were contaminated with earthly humors. This was
dissolved in a small amount of boiling water in an iron kettle, and
allowed to cool, and I did recieve three ounces less than a pound of
very light yellow crystals. This was then powdered, and mixed with
those things in those ways that one does (I cannot tell you more, for
that is a guild secret), and it did make a fine and goodly gunpowder.
djh
----
Act 1, Henry IV.:—
And that it was a great pity, so it was,
That villainous saltpetre should be digg'd
Out of the bowels of this harmless earth.
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ScienceSquirrel
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Sadly almost certainly a fictional story.
You could make a mix like that but it would not make any nitre.
The mixture needs to rot in warm, damp conditions with plenty of air until it is like a rich compost, maybe a year or two is needed.
The final extraction takes place when the mixture is like black earth without a smell of ammonia or manure.
The other depressing thing is that it has be be done on a big scale otherwise it just will not rot down.
Compost and manure has to be made on a large scale or it will not develop the right conditions to start to rot.
Look at the original paper and you will realise they are doing it on a tonnage scale.
[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]
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Random
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Interesting info, thanks for it. I also found that I can buy some black compost in the gardening store, maybe i could filter the water solution of it
and see what I would get.. Which water soluble salts are in those black composts?
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The WiZard is In
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Ahhh you dobe quick to criticize someone you know nothing
about! I would put Prof. (chemistry) TP at the top of the
people whose judgment I trust list.
Granted letting it sit and bubble for a longer time would
increase the output, however, given the time restraints
this experiment was conducted under....
This from one of his 1997 rec.pyrotechnics posts —
I did this once... not for the nitrate, but as a Rennaisence Faire gig.
Yes, "nitrate bearing earth" is horse manure, outhouse gunk, or similar
materials. So this procedure tells you how to extract KNO3 from shit.
If you don't fancy working with tubs of shit, don't do this.
When I did this I worked with 25 gallons of "earth". In the end I got
about 1.25 pounds of KNO3. It took me 2 days, and I probably used 1/8'th
of a cord of wood to boil down the liquid. At $120/cord, that means I
used $15 worth of wood to obtain that 1.25 pounds of KNO3.
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel | Sadly almost certainly a fictional story.
You could make a mix like that but it would not make any nitre.
The mixture needs to rot in warm, damp conditions with plenty of air until it is like a rich compost, maybe a year or two is needed.
The final extraction takes place when the mixture is like black earth without a smell of ammonia or manure.
The other depressing thing is that it has be be done on a big scale otherwise it just will not rot down.
Compost and manure has to be made on a large scale or it will not develop the right conditions to start to rot.
Look at the original paper and you will realise they are doing it on a tonnage scale.
[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel] |
SALTPETRE, NITRATE, OF POTASSA.
Wagner’s Chemical Technology 1872
(A translation of Rudlof Wagner’s “Handbuch der Chemischen” 8th Edition 1870)
Republished by Lindsay Publications
And Google.com/books
MODE OF OBTAINING SALTPETRE. The mode of making, these plantations may be
briefly described as follows:—Materials containing, much carbonate of lime—for
instance, marl, old building rubbish, ashes, road scrapings, stable refuse, or mud from
canals—is mixed with nitrogenous animal matter, all kinds of refuse, and frequently with
such vegetable substances as naturally contain nitrate of potassa, such as the leaves
and stems of the potato, the leaves of the beet, sunflower plants, nettles, &c. These
materials are arranged in heaps of a pyramidal shape to a height of 2 to 2 ½ metres,
care being taken to make the bottom impervious to water by a well puddled layer of
clay, the heap being in all directions exposed to the action of the atmosphere, the
circulation of which is promoted through the heap by of straw. The heap is protected
from rain by a roof, and at least once a week watered with lant (stale urine). The
formation of saltpetre of course requires a considerable length of time, but, when taught
by experience, the workmen suppose a heap “ripe”, the watering is discontinued, the
salt containing saltpetre soon after efflorescing over the surface of the heap to 6 to 10
centims. in thickness; this layer is scraped off, and the operation repeated from time to
time until the heap becomes decayed and has to be entirely removed. In Switzerland
saltpetre is artificially made by many of the farmers, simply by causing the urine of the
cattle, while in stable in the winter time, to be absorbed by a calcareous soil purposely
placed under the loose flooring of the stables, which are chiefly built on the slope of the
mountains, so that only the door is level with the earth outside, the rest of the building
hanging over the slope, and being supported by stout wooden poles; thus a space is
obtained, which, freely admitting air, is filled with marl or other suitable material. After
two or three years this material is removed, lixiviated with water, mixed with caustic lime
and wood ash, and boiled down. The liquor having been sufficiently evaporated, is
decanted from the sediment and left for crystallization; the quantity of saltpetre varying
from 50 to 200 lbs. for each stable.
Not knowing the size of each stable number of cattle, &c....
I would posit that 50 to 200 pounds of nitrate is little output for a [literal] shit load of input!
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ScienceSquirrel
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To get a respectable percentage of nitrate you have to water the heap with an ammoniacal liquor over a long period.
Gallons of piss over a long period on a suitable alkaline substrate is required.
Black compost is not going to yield much unless you extract 100kg amounts for a few grams yield.
Really you would be better mixing a fertiliser rich in potassium and nitrate, look at the analysis on the bag of the bag, with hot water and filtering
it while hot.
Then concentrate and cool.
Have a look at some of the available material on the extraction of alkali and iodine from seaweed by drying and burning the kelp, lixiviating the ash
and then concentrating and crystallising.
Or the extraction of oil from peat.
Both of them were large scale operations that stank and produced pollution on a big scale for the amount of product formed.
Unless you live on a big property with distant and uncaring neighbours with a hill billy attitude to filth and mess you can forget it*
* You can spot good neighbours for this by counting fingers, more than six on each hand is good, rotting 4x4's in the yard, car horns that play Dixie,
etc
The fact that you are going to start a cave man black powder works in their backyard will probably go down well with them as they are probably hand
loaders waiting for the world to end.
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ScienceSquirrel
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The mixture is just too raw, the stuff needs to rot for months until it is no longer raw turds and urine but black earth and the yield is way too
high.
12 ounces is just too high for a final yield on that mass of crude starting material treated in that way.
His tale of the extraction of black earth is more credible, but note that he used 25 gallons of crude black earth which is an enormous mass , I would
guess that it was at least 400 - 600lbs which is a lot more than the half barrel full in the first story for a similar yield.
and as for the scato -erotic diversion of the shit fight between the two young women, least said soonest mended.
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