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A Grave Risk of Death

Polverone - 10-12-2010 at 12:17

It is unfortunately a familiar story: harmless man has unusual hobby, neighbors and police shudder with fear. If your neighbors see your vacuum chamber, expect them to call the police. If you have nitric acid plus a few products from Home Depot, expect those police to say you exposed neighbors to "a grave risk of death."

Perhaps it is different outside the United States, but in the USA you do not want strangers to discover your hobby even if you are doing nothing with drugs and explosives and otherwise behave responsibly. Neighbors and police want to show their alarm was justified and will leap to the next-most-horrifying idea: you could have done something dangerous and/or illegal with those unfamiliar items. Why hide if you've done nothing wrong? Because you are surrounded by people who are unskilled and unaware of it, and who can confiscate your property then make you prove your innocence in court.

entropy51 - 10-12-2010 at 12:34

The frightening part is that this was over a couple of hardware store chemicals and a vacuum chamber.

Can you imagine the reaction of the police to what some of us have in our basements?

Apparently they charged him with reckless endangerment, a felony, as well as second-degree obstructing governmental administration, whatever that is. I'm amazed they didn't pile on drug charges, fire code violations, and attempting to separate uranium isotopes without an NRC license.

vulture - 10-12-2010 at 12:43

Quote:

but in the USA you do not want strangers to discover your hobby even if you are doing nothing with drugs and explosives and otherwise behave responsibly.

Sounds like TIPS (or whatever it was called) in action, despite it not being law. Neighbours spying on neighbours, colleagues on colleagues, guilty till proven innocent etc...remind you of anything? Kind of ironic blowing billions during the cold war to keep the commies at bay and now finding their totalitarian tactics have taken over the population and LE. If only the Russians had known it took just two airplanes and two towers.

hissingnoise - 10-12-2010 at 12:48

Quote:

(Sanchez's younger brother, Keenan Sanchez, was badly burned in a Dec. 19, 2009, chemical fire that consumed the family home at 151 Adams Place in Delmar. Police said the younger Sanchez, then 15, may have been handling chemicals in the basement. A police investigation into the fire remains at a standstill because the teen and his mother refuse to speak to them about it.)

It always seems heavy-handed . . .
This though, kinda qualifies as extenuating circumstances

vulture - 10-12-2010 at 14:01

No it doesn't. It's called guilt by association and it's a well known propaganda tactic.

If that's extenuating circumstances, than you should arrest any known smoker who stores and uses cigarettes inside a house. How many house fires have been started by smoking?

[Edited on 10-12-2010 by vulture]

aonomus - 10-12-2010 at 16:00

Citizens, report your neighbors for suspicious activity! Promise of rewards!

We reward ignorance and obedience, and crush those with intelligence and critical thinking abilities!

Seriously though, that man needs to challenge the claims of:

1. Reckless endangerment: dear gov't, demonstrate how on earth some hardware store solvents and a few acids could POSSIBLY be dangerous to other people simply by being in the same county?
2. Obstruction of government administration: demonstrate how he 'obstructed', simply by excercising his rights I would assume?
3. Resisting arrest: arrest over what grounds? Simply covering your face while being beaten by cops when not resisting (ie: compliance) is resistance to arrest apparently. I'm confused now.

not_important - 10-12-2010 at 16:16

Ah, aonomus, did y ou live through the 1950s and `60s? The Civil Rights movement in the U.S. saw plenty of beatings administered by LEAs, as did the anit-war crowd, while the FBI and CIA certainly did plenty of snooping. Assaulting an officer might consist of not running away, while resisting arrest was running away.

IrC - 10-12-2010 at 16:40

Since this all began over a vacuum chamber, can someone please explain where the hell probable cause to search the place originated?

I must say I am on both Vultures and Polverone's side here, this is beyond madness. Can anyone say 1930's Germany? They will get my vacuum setup (and propane torch) when they pry them from my cold dead fingers.

From what I see it appears the only possible way they can claim anything at all was the combo of H2SO4, HNO3, and anything which could be nitrated into an explosive. If this is the case we need to stop buying certain items and start making them. HNO3 and the arc method comes to mind. Make only what you are going to need and never store large amounts.

"Ah, aonomus, did you live through the 1950s and `60s?"

I was there and I remember all. In Kansas City you could only buy $5 worth of gas, only in the tank (no cans), and if caught after the 8 PM curfew they beat you with billy clubs and hauled you off. I saw it dozens of times and I hid out after dark meaning I could have seen it hundreds of times as I am sure it was even worse than I saw. Not to mention Kansas City was nothing compared to Chicago and elsewhere. IIRC 1968 or so.

I also remember the Philly police going after a man, wife, and children holed up in a brick building of a home just a very few years later over a drug warrant. The police dropped a bomb from a helicopter directly above the place, which was so large 60 homes around burned to ashes. Look it up, less than a decade after the riots. They were immune from suits by the 61 homeowners and I do not think the city even paid for the destruction of innocent families homes and possessions. Do not remember if anyone in the surrounding ash heap was harmed but no doubt some newspaper or other could be looked up for specifics. Keywords Philadelphia and weapons of mass destruction used on innocent citizens.

Can we spell Fahrenheit 451? Yes but alas, nothing to write it on.

Looks like a continuing pattern here. Every single time LEO hears of anyone in their own home conducting research they end up on the news with their lives seriously harmed. Maybe it's just me but it looks like the smart choice is to 'go to ground' with our science?

[Edited on 12-11-2010 by IrC]

Rosco Bodine - 10-12-2010 at 17:24

Thought crime prevention will always require vigilance by the thought police.
Any potential threat presented by wrong thinking also necessitates and justifies intervention by any means necessary in the interest of public safety. Accepting this is only right thinking and respect for authority.

bbartlog - 10-12-2010 at 18:25

Quote:

I also remember the Philly police going after a man, wife, and children holed up in a brick building of a home just a very few years later over a drug warrant.

Your memory is a little off. This was the MOVE incident; wikipedia has a reasonable summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE .
No drugs or drug warrants involved, more likely police taking the opportunity to pursue a lethal vendetta against an organization they blamed for the death of one of their own. Why they were permitted to use military weapons I don't know. Killed eleven people including five children.

Sedit - 10-12-2010 at 19:05

From my understanding they where not permitted, they claimed that they ment to use a percussion bomb to scare the people out yet they dropped an incinerary bomb instead.... but don't play with paint thinner folks ya might mess up and hurt someone....

IrC - 10-12-2010 at 19:26

Nothing wrong with my memory about the details reported at the time other than I did not think it was that many years later. Likely you are right I connected the first incident with the bombing in time frame. I was reading newspapers and watching nightly news during this incident but you would think my memory about 85 would be clearer than 78. I did hear and read the story as I stated it (only it was 7 years later than I remember), one would have to conclude news outlets were as poorly run then as today. I did not follow the news about it closely in the months following the incident. Your link is interesting since the story there sounds more credible than the evening news story I remember watching. No doubt they rushed to get the story out competing with deadlines of other services the day it occurred, and filled in their own theories as to the drug connection. The paper the following day repeated the same story which leads me to believe it probably took a few days before Philly officials put out the details. I am sure the more complete details in Wiki results from the advantage of having more information filled in all these years later.

Glad you posted that since I never saw all these details during the time this was a news story. Very interesting. Does not change the point I was making namely they have all through our history had few reservations about using excessive force against citizens. Other than in terms of numbers I do not see much difference between the humanity of Pol Pot and our LEO.

I should add then again give them a few more years, by then they may catch up in the numbers subjected to their 'humanity'.

"The police lobbed tear gas canisters at the building and the fire department battered the roof of the house with two water cannons. The police fired 10,000 rounds at the house in two hours. A police helicopter then dropped a four-pound bomb made of C-4 plastic explosive and Tovex, a dynamite substitute, onto the roof of the house without any prior warning. The resulting explosion caused the house to catch fire, igniting a massive blaze which eventually destroyed 65 houses"

"Eleven people, including John Africa, five other adults and five children, died in the resulting fire.[4] The firefighters were stopped from putting out the fire based on allegations that firefighters were being shot at, a claim that was contested by the lone adult survivor Ramona Africa, who says that the firefighters had earlier battered the house with two deluge pumps when there was no fire.[12] Ramona Africa and one child, Birdie Africa, were the only survivors" Waco anyone.

"No one from the city government was charged criminally."

Off topic other than it relates to the over reaction and excessive force which seems to be the only way they are able to deal with any situation including each and every time we hear a story about a legitimate home chemist having their life destroyed merely for their love of science and the need for materials to conduct experimentation. United Nuclear could attest to this.

"they claimed that they meant to use a percussion bomb to scare the people out yet they dropped an incendiary bomb instead"

Think about this. Nothing but a lie to cover the true depth of violence these people love to use. Anyone who believes they do not know which bombs they are dropping probably has already purchased the bridge.

[Edited on 12-11-2010 by IrC]

Magpie - 10-12-2010 at 19:58

So what would be the appropriate action for LE to take in regard to Robert Bruce Thompson? He openly advertises a rather extensive home lab. Should he be similarly charged with a felony? If not, why not?

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/07/robert_bruce_thomps...

[Edited on 11-12-2010 by Magpie]

IrC - 10-12-2010 at 20:41

"So what would be the appropriate action for LE to take in regard to Robert Bruce Thompson?"

If you are asking me this question then my answer is this guy and the guy in Polverones post should both be left the hell alone. What crime did he commit against anyone? Has to leave school to pay legal bills? What do they care they have billions in tax money provided by their citizen victims to pay for their unending assaults upon us. The more money they force us to lose the easier it is for them to prove us guilty and don't tell anyone but the 'crime' was invented by them. Injustice is being done. We have every right to science it is what built this country. All of these type actions are illegal acts committed upon law abiding citizens professionally conducting home research. I believe LEO has been and will always commit more crimes, especially of a constitutional nature, than all the criminals combined.

Citizens are becoming sub human to all LEO and governmental agencies on a rapidly multiplying basis. By this I mean as time progresses they see us as increasingly less human in their eyes. To respond with jack booted thugs with guns to a report of an honest citizen pursuing a legitimate dream strikes me as nothing less than the greatest cowardliness in human history.

Forgot to mention. Nice video. Strangely 64 was the year I got also my first big set, the $40 one he pointed out in the video. That exact one. Yes being around 11 black powder was my first experiment. Damned un-American to do any other experiments first. Black powder it must be. I miss it and I miss going to the hobby store for tubing, stoppers, all manner of glass and chems. All sitting so pretty on shelves for damn good prices. My next was a Kewl one, electrolysis to make nitrogen tri chloride, at 11! And with little knowledge other than going to the Linda Hall Science library every monday night, of course where I read and copied the bigger boomer experiment. From the same place I learned of the tri iodide fun and at 13 cleared a table of a grand worth of lab equipment at my school. Yes, in the 7th grade back then you had chemistry with a set of chemicals hard to find in higher learning places today.

It appears to me the safer they make us the more dangerous the world becomes.

[Edited on 12-11-2010 by IrC]

cyanureeves - 10-12-2010 at 21:53

snitchin to divert attention.drug dealers do that somtimes.I bet the u.s. government loves u.f.o. theorists too.Barney fifes and young officers shooting for sargent could be a nightmare for small town hobbyists. It just has to be all tax consuming though.careless,selfish people ruining other people's lives.

madscientist - 11-12-2010 at 05:17

Quote:

They will get my vacuum setup (and propane torch) when they pry them from my cold dead fingers.

Then if they want you, that's exactly what will happen.

Rosco Bodine - 11-12-2010 at 06:23

We are told:

Right thinking accepts that truth is whatever those in authority say it is.
Right thinking is choosing to believe what those in authority tell you to
believe, since you know you cannot instead rely upon your own reasoning
nor can you trust your lying eyes .....that would be wrong thinking .
Wrong thinkers are sheeple in need of correction and reeducation ......
so that once again they can be comfortable with the bliss of "knowing"
that "truth" is whatever those in authority say it is.

None should ever question this. Trust the judgement and expertise of more knowledgeable people, for it is to them it is rightly given authority over
all sheeple.

Reality Check:

There is and ever was only one good shepherd, and there is every year
a birthday celebration that happens about two weeks from today on the 25th of December. The truth shall set you free.

Merry Christmas

[Edited on 11-12-2010 by Rosco Bodine]

hissingnoise - 11-12-2010 at 07:16

That's it! Hook, line, sinker, rod and angler . . .
Phew!

Rosco Bodine - 11-12-2010 at 07:44

That was Jonah .....and the whale wouldn't you know it ...got indigestion!

IrC - 11-12-2010 at 09:24

"Then if they want you, that's exactly what will happen."

Probably so. Yet my life is of value to me so the cost will be great. You see I am from the old school where the saying "better dead than red" is not mere words, it's a way of life. Does not matter if the red comes from across the ocean or across the street.

Are we all supposed to give up home experimenting just to be safe from an unconstitutional assault upon our just way of life. By "just way of life" I mean we (U.S) are a nation of laws. Myself I believe in obeying those I see the need for and agree with. Example we do not make and stockpile explosives or destructive devices (or other mayhem in general) so gardeners can blow their feet off. We do not create situations which put our loved ones or neighbors in harms way. These laws were needed no doubt right after LEO got tired of scraping people off walls. We do not conduct experiments in such 'occupied structures' settings, which could result in harm to any. We live trying to always keep common sense at our side. For officials in the first story to tell everyone this guy put them all in grave danger" is a lie, propaganda, resulting from cowardly hysterical completely unjustified fear.

In the first post the guy in the story did none of these things. I will say however we learned never to let our younger siblings mess with stuff in our house painting us a target. Only common sense.

[Edited on 12-11-2010 by IrC]

hissingnoise - 11-12-2010 at 11:43

Quote:

You see I am from the old school where the saying "better dead than red" is not mere words, it's a way of life.

Oh, the fun of McCarthyism - it's just what's needed now!
Tea party too liberal for you, IrC?
WTF!

psychokinetic - 11-12-2010 at 12:59

Hmm, I wonder if I should call the cops about my neighbour's liquid state gas-petroleum protein/carbohydrate incendiary device. It's massive. 6 burners, side plate, even a grilled plate. It's almost as big as my car. This is beyond acceptable.

/What? What do you mean it's a BBQ? I don't care what you call it, it's dangerous!

IrC - 11-12-2010 at 13:43

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

Quote:

You see I am from the old school where the saying "better dead than red" is not mere words, it's a way of life.

Oh, the fun of McCarthyism - it's just what's needed now!
Tea party too liberal for you, IrC?
WTF!

You really do need to get your head out of this attack mentality. How is free debate possible if every time an opinion is expressed you must rush in and judge, always coming up with your worst case scenario of how you perceive the mindset of another. Coming up with some names and buzzwords and using them in a personal attack. America was founded as a free republic and I will fight to keep it this way. If you are unhappy with a free republic get out and move somewhere you feel more comfortable.

Your attitude makes this board a much lesser place to be.

Might I suggest Albania.

Polverone - 11-12-2010 at 14:00

Hissingnoise, IrC's comment may reveal a political perspective that you disagree with. But I hope that any member of this site would agree with the sentiment against persecution of our hobby by suspicious, overzealous government and fellow citizens, whether you perceive a leftist or rightist character to that zeal. There is no reason to pick a fight about the issues that divide us in this thread when a slightly more charitable reading would find common ground.

quicksilver - 11-12-2010 at 14:51

There are not enough facts here.
Neighbor calls police? - WHY?
Police ask to come in and this guy lets them and starts talking his way into court.
Prosecutor wants the case? Bulls*t! This will be plea bargained down to Heaven Knows What (possession of vacuum in occupied dwelling).

(Likely scenario

1.) Neighbor has a problem with this guy or (more likely) neighbor thinks the guy IS a druggy & MUST do his civic duty. Remember one very pertinent fact - that was a 500 pound vacuum chamber: that was not a flask and a can of paint thinner.

2.) Police have never SEEN device before but HAVE seen films where household chemicals have becomes smoke-able mescaline laced with tropical frog poison.

3.) The individual himself is foolish because he lives in a damn apartment building where thin walls make for masturbatory echos.

I am in total agreement that this is tragically foolish. However I also see where this can snowball. Large-scale professional lab equipment is an oddity in an apartment.
We live in a world with IDIOTS who think that living in fear is living in knowledge.
People; PLEASE - realize that the average individual gets entertainment out of watching a television. What's more, they watch shows like "Dancing With The Stars"! Some of the most dangerous people are the gullible and the stupid.

psychokinetic - 11-12-2010 at 16:58

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

household chemicals have becomes smoke-able mescaline laced with tropical frog poison.

... What is this I don't even.

IrC - 11-12-2010 at 19:18

Polverone I am unsure if my take on this thread is the same as yours so I will try to explain. Correct me if I am wrong but I see this as the most freedom robbing dangerous precedent yet. How can a vacuum system be probable cause, whether the size of Nasa's or my little attempt below. Pic 3 is the top pump and 4 is the 70 micron bottom pump.

They claimed he put neighbors in grave danger. Yet the man had nitrated nothing, nor was this his goal. There is zero evidence for the 'grave danger' hysteria, and I see zero probable cause over the vacuum system. If no probable cause then how can a man 'resist arrest' in his own home. I guess what bothers me is this is the first story I have seen which like the handwriting on the walls spells doom for our endeavors.

I should add (off topic) but those needle valves, copper and flare fittings are the way to go. Look at the 25+ " Hg on the gauges. In 2005 I pumped it down, lock valves and shut off pumps. Just took it out of storage last night to take these pics. The vacuum you see is where it was after over 4 years of storage and non use.

Now I will go play with it before I also get raided and they take my toys away.

[Edited on 12-12-2010 by IrC]

psychokinetic - 11-12-2010 at 22:11

Just because you use logic, IrC, does not mean they will use it.

"Don't like it, so it must be dangerous"

MagicJigPipe - 12-12-2010 at 02:29

Quote:

Only an idiot would mix chemicals together.

Can we make this the new site slogan?

hissingnoise - 12-12-2010 at 02:58

Quote: Originally posted by IrC

You really do need to get your head out of this attack mentality.

Well, "attack mentality" seems a bit strong, but you're right; I should resist posting such pointed comments . . .

vulture - 12-12-2010 at 06:18

The only way to stop the witch hunt is to get scientifically educated people into LE, politics and lobbying organisations.

People making and enforcing the law don't have scientific backgrounds. Usually their worst crime is ignorance and trying to protect their job. Their studies and life choices are specifically geared to careers in the area of the law. They have no other skills than being a politician or enforcing the law. So they must make sure they are needed.

quicksilver - 12-12-2010 at 06:32

Quote: Originally posted by vulture

The only way to stop the witch hunt is to get scientifically educated people into LE, politics and lobbying organisations.

That's pretty tough for a number of reasons. The mind-set doesn't invite that. A fellow who gravitates to a "black & white" mentality often does not have a mind that enjoys the scientific principal or for that matter; not having an emotional investment in being "correct" (or not "incorrect")
There ARE sci-educated persons in LE but generally they are not "sworn officers" and therefore not part of the "club" or promotion-list "in-crowd".

unionised - 12-12-2010 at 06:36

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic

Just because you use logic, IrC, does not mean they will use it.

"Don't like it, so it must be dangerous"

I think it's a matter of "I don't understand it, so it must be dangerous."

quicksilver - 12-12-2010 at 06:43

Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

household chemicals have becomes smoke-able mescaline laced with tropical frog poison.

... What is this I don't even.

It was an attempt to show the DEPTH of scientific inaccuracy.

kmno4 - 12-12-2010 at 07:50

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone

It is unfortunately a familiar story: harmless man has unusual hobby, neighbors and police shudder with fear. If your neighbors see your vacuum chamber, expect them to call the police. If you have nitric acid plus a few products from Home Depot, expect those police to say you exposed neighbors to "a grave risk of death."

Perhaps it is different outside the United States, but in the USA you do not want strangers to discover your hobby even if you are doing nothing with drugs and explosives and otherwise behave responsibly (...)

Really, it is not different outside US

I know cases when neighbors were right and a hobbyst living next to them was making bad use from "nitric+glycol".
I know cases where a hobbyst blown up his unit in a flat.
I personally know people living with 500 kg of KClO3 under bed, in their home.
I know case when a hobbyst came from "good chemistry" via "pyro" to "drugs" and at some moment he dissapeared from all forums (but this story does not end yet in this point).
I know people having fun with detonations "things" filled with nails, in a forest and watching trees later......
etc... etc....
Chemistry is very specific hobby where it is extremely easy to make bad use from good things.
There is no any certainty that Polverone makes only "innocent" things instead of, let us say MDMA.
Similary, kmno4 can make PETN for local "mafia".
For me it can be stupid but for neighbors and police it can be possible.

Have you heard about Josef Fritzl and his "hobby" ?
He also did not want others to discover it

vulture - 12-12-2010 at 07:56

Are you making a case for guilty till proven innocent?

aonomus - 12-12-2010 at 10:43

The problem is that in many cases, the ignorance of the legal system gets covered up by 'staying the course', continuing to press charges against individuals which evidence shows innocence, just so they don't look bad and lose cases.

If someone is suspected of something, investigate.
-> if they are guilty of something, continue investigation and charge with the appropriate crimes
-> If they are not guilty...
--> the right thing to do would be to drop the case
--> the wrong thing to do would be to imagine conspiracy with the intent of either making an example out of someone, thinking 'you know better', etc.

IrC - 12-12-2010 at 14:38

Quote: Originally posted by vulture

Are you making a case for guilty till proven innocent?

I believe that now in this brave new 21st century LEO and all government officials, combined with all media and most of the public, function in no other way but "guilty". After all they have unlimited money to find a way to prove you guilty. Truth no longer matters. This all stemming from their out of control hysterical fear and terror, a state they must exist in at all costs. Never will they learn that to live in this much fear is to not live at all. So in the end they are protecting nothing.

If the board did not limit me in file size I would attach an mp3 of King Crimson's '21st century schizoid man'.

I can at least add the lyrics.

Lyrics to 21st Century Schizoid Man :
(Fripp/Sinfield/McDonald/Lake/Giles)

Cat's foot iron claw
Neuro-surgeons scream for more
At paranoia's poison door.
Twenty first century schizoid man.

Blood rack barbed wire
Politicians' funeral pyre
Innocents raped with napalm fire
Twenty first century schizoid man.

Death seed blind man's greed
Poets' starving children bleed
Nothing he's got he really needs
Twenty first century schizoid man

Look around at all the things going on in the world today and compare this to the lyrics. Amazing they wrote this in 1969 isn't it?

[Edited on 12-13-2010 by IrC]

froot - 13-12-2010 at 07:13

Love thy neighbour! Well, at least get friendly with the bastards before you decide to open the closet and pull out your uniqueness! This way you'll be more approachable while it will be more difficult for them to call the cops. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, that is so frikken true on so many levels that you can call it a survival skill. Keep a spot for the gullible and stupid right there next to those enemies.

hissingnoise - 13-12-2010 at 13:05

Quote:

Love thy neighbour!

Yeah! Bring her upstairs to see your lithographs . . .

paulr1234 - 30-12-2010 at 09:44

I have mixed feelings about this and both agree and disagree with both hissingnoise and vulture earlier in the thread.

Reading this story, it feels like this unfortunate guy is probably getting caught up in some residual (local Police department) resentment of his brother's case, almost exactly a year ago.

I mean, let's reflect... his brother is doing some amateur experimenting, manages to burn his entire house down, seriously injures himself and then royally pisses-off the local PD and FD by (will be viewed as) colluding with his mother and not cooperating.

I think that if I was the local police, I'd jump to the wrong conclusions as well. It's wrong but people tend to assume that 'bad' runs in families.

As a comedian I like once joked... "Ya know, every street has that ONE family, trouble is... on my street it was MY family!"

I don't much care about what the cops think but I do tend to care about the job that firefighters have to do.

That said, there's also the obstruction and resisting arrest charges. Sounds like he probably badly played his initial responses when the cops first showed-up, or maybe the police had already made the connections with his brother before arriving, and were determined to nail him from the get go.

It really underlines the advice that some of the more assertive members will often recommend here, being that when faced with a situation like this, it will sometimes be better to simply demand their warrant, your lawyer and your rights and not budge an inch.

Trouble with that is that a). In practice, it requires balls that many of us don't have, b). You are guaranteed to then be completely on the wrong side of the cops from there on (kiss goodbye to getting away with a friendly chat about your home science experiments) and c). There's not much of a guarantee that they won't kick your door down anyway, warrant or no. I mean, If they can do it to retrieve a prototype iPhone from a journalist/blogger with seemingly no consequences, then they will have free reign to do it in a situation where they could be protecting public safety, dealing with a dangerous terrorist, drug cook etc. etc.

I expect I'll get hammered for this view but oh well...

madscientist - 30-12-2010 at 22:51

If the cops are banging on your door demanding entrance, you're clearly considered suspicious and any apparent friendliness will be the good cop bad cop routine.

If they don't have a warrant and they're demanding entrance, there's a good chance they're doing so because they can't get a warrant. Stand your ground. Don't even open the door - talk to them through it, or ignore their presence outright. (Answering is not required by law!) If they don't have a warrant, and they smash their way in leaving evidence of illegal entry (this is why you keep the door locked!), the case will be tossed.

starch - 31-12-2010 at 21:37

were i am a local LEO got caught with a lab makein and selling N-methyl-1-phenylpropan-2-amine

here is the best part, No jail, next to No monetry punishment

and the judge went so light because of his outstanding record with the police grrrrrrrrrrr

and people get time just for glass in some places n thy never ever made a drug

ill see if i can find the paper and scan the whole story there's bit more to it

this dude was part of local drug squad hmmmmm should have been harsher for that fact alone

and damn it caused local community to lash out

sux so bad :mad:

[Edited on 1-1-2011 by starch]

DDTea - 31-12-2010 at 23:43

Quote: Originally posted by vulture

The only way to stop the witch hunt is to get scientifically educated people into LE, politics and lobbying organisations.

People making and enforcing the law don't have scientific backgrounds. Usually their worst crime is ignorance and trying to protect their job. Their studies and life choices are specifically geared to careers in the area of the law. They have no other skills than being a politician or enforcing the law. So they must make sure they are needed.

In the United States, we do have scientists (typically analytical chemists with undergraduate diplomas) in law enforcement. They work for agencies such as Dept. of Homeland Security; the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms; and the Drug Enforcement Administration. They serve as professional witnesses in court cases when called upon. However, they NEVER testify for the defense--only for the prosecution.

Unfortunately true...

albqbrian - 12-6-2011 at 20:48

"Then if they want you, that's exactly what will happen.

Be careful people! You may not be making drugs, explosives or chemical weapons but that doesn't mean much to the police! It's still suspicious to them as they're usually completely ignorant, and the DA will always want another scalp to nail to the wall. "

Unfortunately you are 100% correct. There are now so many LE agencies just dying for an excuse to get all kitted up and perform a dynamic entry on some poor schmuck who gave them the slightest pretext. They won't bother with little details like investigating, contacting the subject, trying a normal arrest. Oh no; off goes your door.

The LE world, both state and Federal, in the US is completely out of control. Most Americans are completely ignorant on how bad it's gotten. Think of our being molested by the TSA before we can fly. Did you know basically ANY Federal employee can carry a loaded, concealed weapon on your plane? With no proven training. It's true. And we're not just talking the FBI here. All of those freaking three letter tax wasting places: DOJ, EPA, IRS, HHS, all of them. One of my high school friends works for the Bureau of Prisons as a clerk. He always carries when he travels. He just shows his ID to the TSA goons and they waive him through. Incredible!

And everybody has a SWAT team armed with automatic weapons that none of us taxpaying "bosses" of theirs can possess. Now do any of them have a legitimate need for this? No. So they go looking for any reason to "take the gloves off" Just a couple of days ago one of these teams from the Dept. of Educ!!! crashed into a home and hauled off a guy because of his estranged wife's STUDENT LOAN!!! In another recent case the local police did the same thing to guy who they though had some child porn on his computer. His crime, he didn't secure his wireless router. And a neighbor, who had child porn on his computer; used this poor moron's network. Did nice Officer Friendly check this out before they blew the guy's door in? Of course not. They want to use all those soldier toys and are always looking for an excuse.

And it's even more depressing for me. When I told my wife about the child porn thing, her reply was: "Good, some kid could've been in danger." And this is from a very conservative Republican, MS Engineering, as logical as you can get woman. But the cops know how to play to those fears: child porn, kids in danger. Not that I'm defending the scum, but they are overwhelming peaceful. Certainly in a ratio where the balance of our freedom from having our door blown in by an overzealous SWAT team for no good reason vastly outweighs the infintesimal chance that such an LE action will actually "save" some one.

It's so bad I'm not sure anything short of full insurrection by the populace can stop it. It's just irresistible to all these Feds. If any of them don't have SWAT teams, I'm sure the post Bin Laden euphoria will see them deciding: "hey we need one, where do I sign up?"

Ugh, I'd best stop. This topic always raises my BP to dangerous levels.

entropy51 - 13-6-2011 at 08:05

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Got any for this one?

Quote:

Just a couple of days ago one of these teams from the Dept. of Educ!!! crashed into a home and hauled off a guy because of his estranged wife's STUDENT LOAN

azo - 13-6-2011 at 14:30

all i can say is fuck the lot of them they are nothing but dirty filthy scum.

Well..

albqbrian - 13-6-2011 at 19:43

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2731760/posts

Now to be fair a Ed Dept. spokesman said later:

"Yesterday, the Depart of Education's office of inspector general executed a search warrant at Stockton California residence with the presence of local law enforcement authorities.

While it was reported in local media that the search was related to a defaulted student loan, that is incorrect. This is related to a criminal investigation. The Inspector General's Office does not execute search warrants for late loan payments.

Because this is an ongoing criminal investigation, we can't comment on the specifics of the case. We can say that the OIG's office conducts about 30-35 search warrants a year on issues such as bribery, fraud, and embezzlement of federal student aid funds."

So if they're telling the truth, then they only do the SWAT kind of thing for fraud or embezzlement related to student loans. Frankly I'm still appalled. Can you think of ANY reason relating to Dept of Educ and citizen interaction that would warrant this behavior? Why not a simple knock on the door? A simple TRY to 1st arrest someone. That's the real problem. LE, at all levels, is constantly moving away from basic arrest. SWAT teams and such such only be used in the rarest of circumstances; which is how they were designed.

For instance, how often has the Army's Delta Force or Seal Team 6 (or DevGrp as it's currently known) been used for their founding mission of hostage rescue? Maybe once? Now they're superb soldiers so other uses were found, but those were in combat. How about the FBI's vaunted Hostage Rescue Team. They've never rescued a hostage. Though one of their snipers who can supposedly put bullets into a half inch circle at 200 yds put one into the head of an unarmed nursing mother. At 200 yds.

They have no legitimate mission so they keep looking for one. And the criteria gets broader and broader. I just read an article in a gun magazine where they covered our Immigration and Custom's Dept SWAT teams. They have ten or so. Do they really need that many? Of course not. But who says no to them?

OK I' ranting I'll stop.

IndependentBoffin - 16-6-2011 at 15:32

Anyone else find it interesting how so many people are so risk averse as to try to live like they were immortal, and always die anyway?

Live like you're dying. Take sensible risks but most importantly, live free.

There are two things which enslave a man: fear and desire (the idols of wealth, power, sex, drugs, booze, etc.)

The WiZard is In - 16-6-2011 at 16:03

Quote: Originally posted by IndependentBoffin

Anyone else find it interesting how so many people are so risk averse as to try to live like they were immortal, and always die anyway?

Live like you're dying. Take sensible risks but most importantly, live free.

There are two things which enslave a man: fear and desire (the idols of wealth, power, sex, drugs, booze, etc.)

Road Rage
Rattled
The latest battle over license plates
The Economist 11xii10

But for whom does a license plate speak? In a sense, it clearly speaks for
the government. It communicates that a particular car has been registered
by a particular state. But the law also recognizes that the humans in charge
of the car have some say, too. The Supreme Court recognized as much in a
1977 decision, Wooley v Maynard, which held that New Hampshire could
not require plates bearing the state motto "Life Free or Die". Alternatives
had to be introduced (presumably to cater for those who preferred a life
of servitude).

I wonder were I put my copy of Venus in Furs?

quicksilver - 18-6-2011 at 06:06

Who is ultimately responsible for the generalized spread of information ? Whose job is it to formulate the lesson planning and dissemination of public information? Where does the responsibility rest for the general public's rudimentary education?

We (the public) get information from a variety of sources: media marketing, political campaigns, entertainment, etc. But from a child's early years, exposed to the world around him, are those whose JOB is it to ensure to the best of their ability, that the child has an education. Parents begin the process, they also contribute to it. But there is a vocational field who embraces that responsibility of education & although they must compete with other input, the essence of clear logical thinking, science & reason is theirs.
It's not the media. It's not the sheriff, it's not the advertizing executive. And after some years, it no longer the sole responsibility of the parent for they can only instill [what they can] during their time with their children.

[Edited on 18-6-2011 by quicksilver]

franklyn - 6-3-2012 at 11:05

" Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law "
- Aleister Crowley

Trust a lawyer to split hairs. The distinction being claimed is that
" The Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process ".
The determination of just how much constitutionally entitled legal
process , if any , you are due , will be made extra legally.
Put another way , don't confuse your " rights " with the law.

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2012/03/eric-holder-targeted-kil...

.

franklyn - 9-3-2012 at 10:47

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-10-09/fbi-director...

quicksilver - 9-3-2012 at 15:46

While I certainly don't want to make any specific political commentary, I would address the basic element of the JOB of an Attorney General. This position (to the best of my understanding) is one of the Chief Law Enforcement ADMINISTRATOR in the USA. This position is not designed to MAKE policy. And the problems through out many administrations has been when that boundary has been crossed. Laws are made through the Bills introduced by the House & Senate. They may then be addressed or tested by the Supreme Court. However when law enforcement takes matters of interpretation into it's hands, it appears it is over-stepping it's bounds. An administrator should not make Policy. Although when an agenda of specific thrust is the focus of administrative procedure, it can be construed as doing just that.
This issue has been seen on both sides of the political landscape.

entropy51 - 9-3-2012 at 18:50

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

This position is not designed to MAKE policy. And the problems through out many administrations has been when that boundary has been crossed. Laws are made through the Bills introduced by the House & Senate. They may then be addressed or tested by the Supreme Court. However when law enforcement takes matters of interpretation into it's hands, it appears it is over-stepping it's bounds. An administrator should not make Policy.

That is not how it works.

The directors of the Executive Branch agencies are well versed in the limits of their authority.

If you read some of the laws passed by Congress, you will see that they require the Executive Branch agencies to write the policies and regulations necessary to implement the higher level language of the laws.

For example, the drug control statutes state that the director of the DEA shall, not may or should but shall, establish schedules of controlled substances. The laws allow the head of the Executive Branch agencies to delegate these responsibilities to their staff, whose work is reviewed and approved at the agency director level.

This is not a bad thing either, because the Executive Branch agencies are where you find the scientific and legal expertise that many members of congress lack, since their previous job was selling real estate or used cars prior to being elected to congress.

quicksilver - 10-3-2012 at 08:50

You're right; that's not how it works but that is how it was designed to function. The AG is not supposed to MAKE policy (on a Federal level). Congress passes laws. Problems have arisen due to the AG being a creature of the Administration rather than being elected by the People (as in many States).

"In the federal government of the United States, the Attorney General is a member of the Cabinet and as head of the Department of Justice is the top law enforcement officer and lawyer for the government. The attorney general may need to be distinguished from the Solicitor General, a high Justice Department official with the responsibility of representing the government before the Supreme Court. In cases of exceptional importance, however, the Attorney General may choose to represent the government himself or herself to the Supreme Court. (The SC is then the arbitrator of the law as being Constitutional or not). The Executive Branch has made many mistakes & if no checks and balances existed we would not have a Republic (even though I grant that it doesn't always work that way!). We have not had a truly legal war since WWII.

The individual U.S. states and territories, as well as the Federal capital of Washington, D.C. also have attorneys general with similar responsibilities. The majority of state Attorneys General are chosen by popular election, as opposed to the U.S. Attorney General who is a presidential appointee."

See: "U.S. President Richard Nixon's firing of Watergate Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox, following Cox's request for tapes of his Oval Office conversations. Nixon initially ordered U.S. Attorney General Elliot Richardson, to fire Cox. Richardson resigned rather than carry out the order. Deputy Attorney General William Ruckelshaus considered the order "fundamentally wrong" and also resigned, making Bork the acting attorney general. When Nixon reiterated his order, Bork complied and fired Cox. He remained acting attorney general until the appointment of William B. Saxbe on December 17, 1973."

I'm being very careful not to make this any sort of political discussion and in so saying I would point out that problems of this sort had been seen on both sides. Thus even though I would not argue that Congressmen & women can be stupid, they ARE our elected officials charged with introducing & passing law.

killswitch - 19-3-2012 at 20:38

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

So what would be the appropriate action for LE to take in regard to Robert Bruce Thompson? He openly advertises a rather extensive home lab. Should he be similarly charged with a felony? If not, why not?

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/07/robert_bruce_thomps...

[Edited on 11-12-2010 by Magpie]

Because he's too old and boring-looking to scare LEOs. If you're old and want to get the attention of the police, you need to be a sarcastic asshole first, like the old dude selling iodine who responded to regulatory requirements to demonstrate adequate security for his material by sending the feds a picture of his dog. An old guy making YouTube videos on how to test for lead paint? Not worth it.

I wonder if this is why Nurdrage uses voice masking. It's nothing but a frequency shift, though, so it's not a very good disguise.

We could all do with a paradigm shift

franklyn - 27-7-2014 at 07:40

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIdiEV1P2bc

neptunium - 29-7-2014 at 18:13

"masturbatory echoes" !!!!!!

HA! good one!

where to start?

my hero Albert E
instein once said " i fear the day when technology will surpass human relations, the world will have a generation of idiots"

the TV based sutto science hows and the fear of the meth cook and the terrorist have a direct impact on the home scientific community because internet, iphones, TV and self centered world have taken over the self reliance, family orriented pshylosophy of this great country.
this incident would NOT have happened 20 or 30 (and beyond ) years ago.
why?
because 9/11 ... ok (plenty to debate here)
Also , because we are slowly but surely loosing touch with one another .
As Quicksilver pointed out, if the neighbors knew the next door fool, and talk to him sometimes, maybe they would have quickly figured out his harmlessness, or maybe they would have befriended him, or even participate in his demnstration....who knows?
the point is, by cutting relationship bridges between eachother and juxtaposing technology, we are loosing human contact and common sense!
For those of us old enough to remember the time when computers were presented to us as a mean to facilitate and expedite the boring job, it turns out that it has accomplish the exact opposite of what it set out to do.a complete reversal of the human interaction.
we text and email rather than meet and talk. we watch and broadcast rather than listen and exchange.
we rely on the idiot box and idiot web to tell us about the news ,weather, fashion, cooking, directions, movie reviews, tips, real estates, dating, and so much more ......
have we forgotten the days when we could get by just fine without any of this ?
have we effectively became idiots?

as A. Einstein predicted long ago....

[Edited on 30-7-2014 by neptunium]

Texium - 30-7-2014 at 08:02

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium

"masturbatory echoes" !!!!!!

HA! good one!

where to start?

my hero Albert E
instein once said " i fear the day when technology will surpass human relations, the world will have a generation of idiots"

the TV based sutto science hows and the fear of the meth cook and the terrorist have a direct impact on the home scientific community because internet, iphones, TV and self centered world have taken over the self reliance, family orriented pshylosophy of this great country.
this incident would NOT have happened 20 or 30 (and beyond ) years ago.
why?
because 9/11 ... ok (plenty to debate here)
Also , because we are slowly but surely loosing touch with one another .
As Quicksilver pointed out, if the neighbors knew the next door fool, and talk to him sometimes, maybe they would have quickly figured out his harmlessness, or maybe they would have befriended him, or even participate in his demnstration....who knows?
the point is, by cutting relationship bridges between eachother and juxtaposing technology, we are loosing human contact and common sense!
For those of us old enough to remember the time when computers were presented to us as a mean to facilitate and expedite the boring job, it turns out that it has accomplish the exact opposite of what it set out to do.a complete reversal of the human interaction.
we text and email rather than meet and talk. we watch and broadcast rather than listen and exchange.
we rely on the idiot box and idiot web to tell us about the news ,weather, fashion, cooking, directions, movie reviews, tips, real estates, dating, and so much more ......
have we forgotten the days when we could get by just fine without any of this ?
have we effectively became idiots?

as A. Einstein predicted long ago....

[Edited on 30-7-2014 by neptunium]

A good post, but ironic by nature, as it is on an internet forum.
I do strongly agree with the sentiment though. I find that on these long summer days where I'm sitting at home by myself I feel an emptiness that is the need of direct social interaction with people, and also just to actually do something. Not much to do but go to the computer though when it's 100°F outside and you still don't have your driver's license...
The amount of chemistry I can do is limited by the summer heat too, since I have no air-conditioned area that I can use.

Praxichys - 9-8-2014 at 07:06

You guys are missing the point.

Quote:

Sanchez's younger brother, Keenan Sanchez, was badly burned in a Dec. 19, 2009, chemical fire that consumed the family home at 151 Adams Place in Delmar. Police said the younger Sanchez, then 15, may have been handling chemicals in the basement. A police investigation into the fire remains at a standstill because the teen and his mother refuse to speak to them about it.

Who is to say it doesn't happen again? I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in an apartment next to this guy.

Sure, I have one heck of a lab. But I live on 0.6 acres, and my house (which nobody else lives in, by the way) is at least 75 feet from the neighbors in any direction.

Don't have potentially dangerous hobbies if it affects other people. Storing solvents in your house? No problem. Storing them in an apartment complex? The liability is insane. When I see YouTube videos of 15 year old kids making chlorine on their apartment balcony... again, I sure as heck wouldn't want to live by them!

Long story short - if you're going to have a hobby other than watching TV, get a place to do it where you won't affect other people, unless you want the cops blasting down your door. Out here in MI, nobody gives a flying s**t what you do as long as it's not making you illegal profit or putting anyone else in potential (even percieved!) danger.

I'm not afraid. I even have conversations about the lab with the UPS delivery guy because I get some lab equipment delivered once or twice a week. Everyone I know at work knows what I do. Hiding implies illegitimacy.

Brain&Force - 10-8-2014 at 09:14

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

I'm not afraid. I even have conversations about the lab with the UPS delivery guy...Everyone I know at work knows what I do. Hiding implies illegitimacy.

That's the primary reason I talk to people about my hobby. The "horror stories" on this forum about labs getting seized aren't the norm. If anything, most people are understanding about amateur chemistry, especially my peers (even though the first question from many is "Can you make meth?").

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

...because I get some lab equipment delivered once or twice a week.

You...wouldn't mind sending me some of that glassware, would you?

arkoma - 10-8-2014 at 09:33

I'm very open about what I do also, as some of y'all already know. I do everything in the back yard, and I am in a fairly dense residential area ATM. I use a VERY small amount of flammable solvents* and keep a fire extinguisher handy, and no open flames. Generally, there is not even a trace of (solvent) smell. The worst danger of 95% of what I do is a burn from live steam and the back yard smelling like a spice cabinet............

"People" are so stupid, though, too. Anyone can make meth---not even difficult. Glad I "outgrew" it.

*IPA, acetone, methanol, and ethyl acetate

subsecret - 10-8-2014 at 22:22

Let me tell you a thing: Juries (at least in the US) are composed of people who do not have large amounts of education - the people that are chosen tend not to pick the facts apart (if you have served jury duty, please do not be offended). It would be great if juries were made only of discerning people, but this is not the case. It's more convenient for jurors to believe what you tell them - making it even harder to prove your point in court if people are afraid. These days, it seems to be pretty easy to convince people that someone is a TERRORIST KILL YOUR GRANDMOTHER type, especially if they have a few of those little glass cups with lines on the sides.

I live in a somewhat populated area, but luckily, our house is surrounded by woods. None of the neighbors know about my hobby. My friends are quite understanding that I'm not a "terrorist," and I've even given a presentation on the hobby, reinforcing the idea that there's a difference between the two. I have received the "can you cook meth" question several times, though. Also, when the school counselor was discussing college enrollment, we shared our fields of interest/hobbies. When I said that home chemistry was my hobby, this is what she said: "That scares me." It didn't really sink in at the time, but had I wrapped my head around the response faster, I'd have been sure to rebut that.

Let's step back into the Cold War - and its McCarthyism. Just as many people were accused of being COMMUNISTS, we struggle with accusations of "drug cook" and "terrorist." Education of the people is the key to winning the war against ignorance.

Oh, let me tell you a funny story. So, at my local craft store, I found some "apothecary" bottles with ground glass stoppers - basically wide-mouth reagent bottles (though the ground glass portions are of crappy quality). I bought a few of them, and while I was paying, the cashier said: "Some guy was buying a bunch of these the other day, and I asked him if he had a laboratory or something." She never mentioned his response to the question, but I just laughed along.

arkoma - 11-8-2014 at 00:38

I use a 250ml Pyrex beaker as a coffee cup. Seriously. I carry it in to Circle K and refill it. It also makes a handy wine/beer glass. I REFUSE to be intimidated by idiocy, dumb fucks, or my gov't. But then again, I am 51, raised my kids, and already been to the penitentiary. I also have my ass covered with a bound notebook and no I₂ or Red phos on the premises.

I also VOTE, and you that think "my vote doesn't matter" remember when that jackass from Texas won by several hundred votes in south Florida? (Bush 43)

NeonPulse - 13-8-2014 at 18:11

Geez... america is sure set on "protecting" its citizens. yeah right. looks like they will be banning all these chemicals because hey, if you have them you must be a deranged lunatic who is bent on destruction! man they go overboard. its reasons like this that if you go buy some chems from the local hardware store you MUST have illegal/dangerous uses for them. It's no wonder people are fearful there... the mass media portrays guys like this as crazed nutjobs. it wont be long before you will need to produce ID and sign off on a EUA to buy a bottle of acetone or drain cleaner. same in australia i think. lab glassware is set to be subject to many restrictions here in the near future.

Heres an example of the same thing in australia just today!!
http://www.9news.com.au/National/2014/08/14/14/24/LIVE-STREA...

another case of "if mixed it is explosive" likely referring to the infamous acetone peroxide.

[Edited on 14-8-2014 by NeonPulse]

Loptr - 14-8-2014 at 06:21

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse

Geez... america is sure set on "protecting" its citizens. yeah right. looks like they will be banning all these chemicals because hey, if you have them you must be a deranged lunatic who is bent on destruction! man they go overboard. its reasons like this that if you go buy some chems from the local hardware store you MUST have illegal/dangerous uses for them. It's no wonder people are fearful there... the mass media portrays guys like this as crazed nutjobs. it wont be long before you will need to produce ID and sign off on a EUA to buy a bottle of acetone or drain cleaner. same in australia i think. lab glassware is set to be subject to many restrictions here in the near future.

Heres an example of the same thing in australia just today!!
http://www.9news.com.au/National/2014/08/14/14/24/LIVE-STREA...

another case of "if mixed it is explosive" likely referring to the infamous acetone peroxide.

[Edited on 14-8-2014 by NeonPulse]

Wait. The article says "Explosives found in home", but then goes on to say they found chemicals, that are stable, but can create a bomb when mixed.

Why must the chemicals be destroyed?

Texium - 14-8-2014 at 07:35

That's just screwed up. I bet most people have acetone and peroxide in the cabinet under their sink. I'd really hope that the police had more "probable cause" than that that they are just not talking about to avoid alarming people...

arkoma - 14-8-2014 at 09:45

Yup, my sister does--nail polish remover and peroxide.

I also DETEST the "civilian" use of the word "lockdown". Lockdown is what happens to you in the penitentiary after a riot. Not at a school, not in a neighborhood.

woelen - 15-8-2014 at 01:40

Things can be worse than that. I understood that in Germany, acetone may not be sold to the general public anymore at concentrations above 35% by weight. In some special situations, with registration of the buyer's ID, acetone may be sold in concentrations up to 50%. Possession of acetone at concentrations above 50% requires a special license, issued by the government.

In the Netherlands there also are many votes for that kind of regulation. The following things are discussed now and should become available only when you have a license:
- sulphuric acid above 50%
- urea
- acetone
- metal grit and powders, finer than 0.2 mm particle diameter
- nitric acid in any concentration
The Netherlands wants even stricter control than the upcoming EU regulations of Sept. 2014. On the other hand, if I look online right now, then there still are numerous sellers, who sell urea, nitric acid (53%), acetone and sulphuric acid. Locally I also can buy urea and acetone at many places. So, things look contradictory. Probably enforcing all these kinds of restrictions is a big problem for the government, especially in these economically hard times where law enforcement people are fired, due to lack of money.

Ammonium nitrate and calcium ammonium nitrate already are restricted. They cannot be obtained anymore by the general public.

It is sad to see how in just 5 years (from appr. 2009 to now) the situation can alter so drastically. In 2009 I still could buy KAS fertilizer (ammonium nitrate with a small amount of dolomite mixed in) in packs of 25 kg and 5 kg without any paperwork or registration. If the regulations indeed come into effect in September and are enforced then it will be nearly impossible to obtain anything reactive, corrosive or oxidizing stuff. All of this is for one reason: fear of terrorism.

Texium - 15-8-2014 at 15:47

At least they don't seem to be going for your glassware too. You'll have to see if it seems like they actually enforce these new regulations. The similar Texas laws that prevent obtaining a laundry list of chemicals and glassware without a license seem to only be enforced when the authorities pretty much already know (or at least have good reason to believe) that the suspect has committed other crimes. It's like how you said that it's still possible to buy the restricted items. It's the same here, and for the most part horror story situations don't happen. I'm thinking that they probably won't enforce these new laws very strictly.

NeonPulse - 18-8-2014 at 02:48

so heres an updated link for the post i posted the other day about the chemicals found in QLD. the cops did well to get this guy as he could have caused a great deal of grief for our happy land down under. http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/08/18/19/48/bomb-plot-...
all i can say is holy shit! and its a good thing this dude was discovered. if it wasn't for a snooping real estate agent who knows what could have happened.
20l and 20kg of chemicals kinda goes a bit past the hobby stage i think but the media is notorious for exaggerating things though. I'm interested to see how this story goes and if any new legislation get passed because of it.

And as for the picric acid, this little old lady with a jar of potentially deadly explosives walking into a police station. the look on the officers faces would have been priceless! Pretty sure there would a few other similar cases popping up in the near future. they seem to happen every so often.

[Edited on 18-8-2014 by NeonPulse]

Texium - 18-8-2014 at 08:49

Well in that case my earlier worries are resolved. They definitely had reason to lock his house down if he'd already blown up a car before.

prof_genius - 18-8-2014 at 11:01

I am now becoming seriously worried about the upcoming regulations, and I will have to start stocking up on reagents.

jock88 - 18-8-2014 at 14:16

so heres an updated link for the post i posted the other day ..............

What is DMDT? as mentioned in the articale

roXefeller - 18-8-2014 at 19:52

Quote: Originally posted by prof_genius

I am now becoming seriously worried about the upcoming regulations, and I will have to start stocking up on reagents.

Upon a visit from the police, as you try to explain that you are just a hobbyist....
Police: Why exactly sir do you have 50kg of ___ and 20L of ___?
prof_genius: Well, uh, I was worried about authoritarian restrictions on the purchase of x, y, and z. I wanted to have them before you clamp down on us.
Police to radio: We have a libertarian with an agenda, and a stockpile of WMD. We'll be bringing him in with excessive force...

Might want to keep those items hidden away from the lab. You might give a nice dime tour of the lab to a curious officer following up on a call, but if you keep more than 100g of his list of naughty chemicals, he might not buy your hobbyist story.

prof_genius - 19-8-2014 at 00:59

I would have to start a small resale company, that would also give me reseller pricing from some companies.

Refinery - 20-8-2014 at 11:15

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

Things can be worse than that. I understood that in Germany, acetone may not be sold to the general public anymore at concentrations above 35% by weight. In some special situations, with registration of the buyer's ID, acetone may be sold in concentrations up to 50%. Possession of acetone at concentrations above 50% requires a special license, issued by the government.

In the Netherlands there also are many votes for that kind of regulation. The following things are discussed now and should become available only when you have a license:
- sulphuric acid above 50%
- urea
- acetone
- metal grit and powders, finer than 0.2 mm particle diameter
- nitric acid in any concentration
The Netherlands wants even stricter control than the upcoming EU regulations of Sept. 2014. On the other hand, if I look online right now, then there still are numerous sellers, who sell urea, nitric acid (53%), acetone and sulphuric acid. Locally I also can buy urea and acetone at many places. So, things look contradictory. Probably enforcing all these kinds of restrictions is a big problem for the government, especially in these economically hard times where law enforcement people are fired, due to lack of money.

Ammonium nitrate and calcium ammonium nitrate already are restricted. They cannot be obtained anymore by the general public.

It is sad to see how in just 5 years (from appr. 2009 to now) the situation can alter so drastically. In 2009 I still could buy KAS fertilizer (ammonium nitrate with a small amount of dolomite mixed in) in packs of 25 kg and 5 kg without any paperwork or registration. If the regulations indeed come into effect in September and are enforced then it will be nearly impossible to obtain anything reactive, corrosive or oxidizing stuff. All of this is for one reason: fear of terrorism.

Sorry to quote this all for a short answer, but it is becoming more and more obvious, that the terrorism threat is not only real, but the terrorists have already won, by taking our freedom and rights and suppressing us to a totalitarian surveillance society. Everyone is a suspect, and it's a matter what we could do. The threat of banning even the most basic chemicals in EU for individuals is most distressing, but what makes it even more extreme, is that these kind of restrictions are being applied to several other things too, which represent the basic freedoms of ours. Have you heard the Malmstrom's gun control scheme?

aga - 31-8-2014 at 10:38

The 'terrorists' have definitely Won Already, and have succeeded in taking over our decision making at the highest level.

The effect is simply that young Taliban (et al) males will be actively encouraged to Learn Chemistry (especially OC and EM) while Westerners might even get locked up for it.

They win.
We lose, by throttling ourselves at their suggestion.

Perhaps it's a really really clever plan, where the west appears to lose, then all those who were encouraged to do chemistry all start making drugs instead of EM, and get their own population whacked out on meth.