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Author: Subject: A Grave Risk of Death
Polverone
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mad.gif posted on 10-12-2010 at 12:17
A Grave Risk of Death


It is unfortunately a familiar story: harmless man has unusual hobby, neighbors and police shudder with fear. If your neighbors see your vacuum chamber, expect them to call the police. If you have nitric acid plus a few products from Home Depot, expect those police to say you exposed neighbors to "a grave risk of death."

Perhaps it is different outside the United States, but in the USA you do not want strangers to discover your hobby even if you are doing nothing with drugs and explosives and otherwise behave responsibly. Neighbors and police want to show their alarm was justified and will leap to the next-most-horrifying idea: you could have done something dangerous and/or illegal with those unfamiliar items. Why hide if you've done nothing wrong? Because you are surrounded by people who are unskilled and unaware of it, and who can confiscate your property then make you prove your innocence in court.




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entropy51
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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 12:34


The frightening part is that this was over a couple of hardware store chemicals and a vacuum chamber.

Can you imagine the reaction of the police to what some of us have in our basements?

Apparently they charged him with reckless endangerment, a felony, as well as second-degree obstructing governmental administration, whatever that is. I'm amazed they didn't pile on drug charges, fire code violations, and attempting to separate uranium isotopes without an NRC license.
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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 12:43


Quote:

but in the USA you do not want strangers to discover your hobby even if you are doing nothing with drugs and explosives and otherwise behave responsibly.


Sounds like TIPS (or whatever it was called) in action, despite it not being law. Neighbours spying on neighbours, colleagues on colleagues, guilty till proven innocent etc...remind you of anything? Kind of ironic blowing billions during the cold war to keep the commies at bay and now finding their totalitarian tactics have taken over the population and LE. If only the Russians had known it took just two airplanes and two towers.




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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 12:48


Quote:
(Sanchez's younger brother, Keenan Sanchez, was badly burned in a Dec. 19, 2009, chemical fire that consumed the family home at 151 Adams Place in Delmar. Police said the younger Sanchez, then 15, may have been handling chemicals in the basement. A police investigation into the fire remains at a standstill because the teen and his mother refuse to speak to them about it.)

It always seems heavy-handed . . .
This though, kinda qualifies as extenuating circumstances

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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 14:01


No it doesn't. It's called guilt by association and it's a well known propaganda tactic.

If that's extenuating circumstances, than you should arrest any known smoker who stores and uses cigarettes inside a house. How many house fires have been started by smoking?


[Edited on 10-12-2010 by vulture]




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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 16:00


Citizens, report your neighbors for suspicious activity! Promise of rewards!

We reward ignorance and obedience, and crush those with intelligence and critical thinking abilities!

Seriously though, that man needs to challenge the claims of:

1. Reckless endangerment: dear gov't, demonstrate how on earth some hardware store solvents and a few acids could POSSIBLY be dangerous to other people simply by being in the same county?
2. Obstruction of government administration: demonstrate how he 'obstructed', simply by excercising his rights I would assume?
3. Resisting arrest: arrest over what grounds? Simply covering your face while being beaten by cops when not resisting (ie: compliance) is resistance to arrest apparently. I'm confused now.
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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 16:16


Ah, aonomus, did y ou live through the 1950s and `60s? The Civil Rights movement in the U.S. saw plenty of beatings administered by LEAs, as did the anit-war crowd, while the FBI and CIA certainly did plenty of snooping. Assaulting an officer might consist of not running away, while resisting arrest was running away.

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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 16:40


Since this all began over a vacuum chamber, can someone please explain where the hell probable cause to search the place originated?

I must say I am on both Vultures and Polverone's side here, this is beyond madness. Can anyone say 1930's Germany? They will get my vacuum setup (and propane torch) when they pry them from my cold dead fingers.

From what I see it appears the only possible way they can claim anything at all was the combo of H2SO4, HNO3, and anything which could be nitrated into an explosive. If this is the case we need to stop buying certain items and start making them. HNO3 and the arc method comes to mind. Make only what you are going to need and never store large amounts.


"Ah, aonomus, did you live through the 1950s and `60s?"

I was there and I remember all. In Kansas City you could only buy $5 worth of gas, only in the tank (no cans), and if caught after the 8 PM curfew they beat you with billy clubs and hauled you off. I saw it dozens of times and I hid out after dark meaning I could have seen it hundreds of times as I am sure it was even worse than I saw. Not to mention Kansas City was nothing compared to Chicago and elsewhere. IIRC 1968 or so.

I also remember the Philly police going after a man, wife, and children holed up in a brick building of a home just a very few years later over a drug warrant. The police dropped a bomb from a helicopter directly above the place, which was so large 60 homes around burned to ashes. Look it up, less than a decade after the riots. They were immune from suits by the 61 homeowners and I do not think the city even paid for the destruction of innocent families homes and possessions. Do not remember if anyone in the surrounding ash heap was harmed but no doubt some newspaper or other could be looked up for specifics. Keywords Philadelphia and weapons of mass destruction used on innocent citizens.

Can we spell Fahrenheit 451? Yes but alas, nothing to write it on.

Looks like a continuing pattern here. Every single time LEO hears of anyone in their own home conducting research they end up on the news with their lives seriously harmed. Maybe it's just me but it looks like the smart choice is to 'go to ground' with our science?


[Edited on 12-11-2010 by IrC]




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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 17:24


Thought crime prevention will always require vigilance by the thought police.
Any potential threat presented by wrong thinking also necessitates and justifies intervention by any means necessary in the interest of public safety. Accepting this is only right thinking and respect for authority. ;)
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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 18:25


Quote:
I also remember the Philly police going after a man, wife, and children holed up in a brick building of a home just a very few years later over a drug warrant.


Your memory is a little off. This was the MOVE incident; wikipedia has a reasonable summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE .
No drugs or drug warrants involved, more likely police taking the opportunity to pursue a lethal vendetta against an organization they blamed for the death of one of their own. Why they were permitted to use military weapons I don't know. Killed eleven people including five children.
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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 19:05


From my understanding they where not permitted, they claimed that they ment to use a percussion bomb to scare the people out yet they dropped an incinerary bomb instead.... but don't play with paint thinner folks ya might mess up and hurt someone....




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"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story before."~Maynard James Keenan
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IrC
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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 19:26


Nothing wrong with my memory about the details reported at the time other than I did not think it was that many years later. Likely you are right I connected the first incident with the bombing in time frame. I was reading newspapers and watching nightly news during this incident but you would think my memory about 85 would be clearer than 78. I did hear and read the story as I stated it (only it was 7 years later than I remember), one would have to conclude news outlets were as poorly run then as today. I did not follow the news about it closely in the months following the incident. Your link is interesting since the story there sounds more credible than the evening news story I remember watching. No doubt they rushed to get the story out competing with deadlines of other services the day it occurred, and filled in their own theories as to the drug connection. The paper the following day repeated the same story which leads me to believe it probably took a few days before Philly officials put out the details. I am sure the more complete details in Wiki results from the advantage of having more information filled in all these years later.

Glad you posted that since I never saw all these details during the time this was a news story. Very interesting. Does not change the point I was making namely they have all through our history had few reservations about using excessive force against citizens. Other than in terms of numbers I do not see much difference between the humanity of Pol Pot and our LEO.


I should add then again give them a few more years, by then they may catch up in the numbers subjected to their 'humanity'.

"The police lobbed tear gas canisters at the building and the fire department battered the roof of the house with two water cannons. The police fired 10,000 rounds at the house in two hours. A police helicopter then dropped a four-pound bomb made of C-4 plastic explosive and Tovex, a dynamite substitute, onto the roof of the house without any prior warning. The resulting explosion caused the house to catch fire, igniting a massive blaze which eventually destroyed 65 houses"

"Eleven people, including John Africa, five other adults and five children, died in the resulting fire.[4] The firefighters were stopped from putting out the fire based on allegations that firefighters were being shot at, a claim that was contested by the lone adult survivor Ramona Africa, who says that the firefighters had earlier battered the house with two deluge pumps when there was no fire.[12] Ramona Africa and one child, Birdie Africa, were the only survivors" Waco anyone.

"No one from the city government was charged criminally."

Off topic other than it relates to the over reaction and excessive force which seems to be the only way they are able to deal with any situation including each and every time we hear a story about a legitimate home chemist having their life destroyed merely for their love of science and the need for materials to conduct experimentation. United Nuclear could attest to this.


"they claimed that they meant to use a percussion bomb to scare the people out yet they dropped an incendiary bomb instead"

Think about this. Nothing but a lie to cover the true depth of violence these people love to use. Anyone who believes they do not know which bombs they are dropping probably has already purchased the bridge.


[Edited on 12-11-2010 by IrC]




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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 19:58


So what would be the appropriate action for LE to take in regard to Robert Bruce Thompson? He openly advertises a rather extensive home lab. Should he be similarly charged with a felony? If not, why not?

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/07/robert_bruce_thomps...



[Edited on 11-12-2010 by Magpie]




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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 20:41


"So what would be the appropriate action for LE to take in regard to Robert Bruce Thompson?"

If you are asking me this question then my answer is this guy and the guy in Polverones post should both be left the hell alone. What crime did he commit against anyone? Has to leave school to pay legal bills? What do they care they have billions in tax money provided by their citizen victims to pay for their unending assaults upon us. The more money they force us to lose the easier it is for them to prove us guilty and don't tell anyone but the 'crime' was invented by them. Injustice is being done. We have every right to science it is what built this country. All of these type actions are illegal acts committed upon law abiding citizens professionally conducting home research. I believe LEO has been and will always commit more crimes, especially of a constitutional nature, than all the criminals combined.

Citizens are becoming sub human to all LEO and governmental agencies on a rapidly multiplying basis. By this I mean as time progresses they see us as increasingly less human in their eyes. To respond with jack booted thugs with guns to a report of an honest citizen pursuing a legitimate dream strikes me as nothing less than the greatest cowardliness in human history.


Forgot to mention. Nice video. Strangely 64 was the year I got also my first big set, the $40 one he pointed out in the video. That exact one. Yes being around 11 black powder was my first experiment. Damned un-American to do any other experiments first. Black powder it must be. I miss it and I miss going to the hobby store for tubing, stoppers, all manner of glass and chems. All sitting so pretty on shelves for damn good prices. My next was a Kewl one, electrolysis to make nitrogen tri chloride, at 11! And with little knowledge other than going to the Linda Hall Science library every monday night, of course where I read and copied the bigger boomer experiment. From the same place I learned of the tri iodide fun and at 13 cleared a table of a grand worth of lab equipment at my school. Yes, in the 7th grade back then you had chemistry with a set of chemicals hard to find in higher learning places today.

It appears to me the safer they make us the more dangerous the world becomes.


[Edited on 12-11-2010 by IrC]




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[*] posted on 10-12-2010 at 21:53


snitchin to divert attention.drug dealers do that somtimes.I bet the u.s. government loves u.f.o. theorists too.Barney fifes and young officers shooting for sargent could be a nightmare for small town hobbyists. It just has to be all tax consuming though.careless,selfish people ruining other people's lives.
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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 05:17


Quote:
They will get my vacuum setup (and propane torch) when they pry them from my cold dead fingers.


Then if they want you, that's exactly what will happen. :(

Be careful people! You may not be making drugs, explosives or chemical weapons but that doesn't mean much to the police! It's still suspicious to them as they're usually completely ignorant, and the DA will always want another scalp to nail to the wall.




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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 06:23


We are told:

Right thinking accepts that truth is whatever those in authority say it is.
Right thinking is choosing to believe what those in authority tell you to
believe, since you know you cannot instead rely upon your own reasoning
nor can you trust your lying eyes .....that would be wrong thinking .
Wrong thinkers are sheeple in need of correction and reeducation ......
so that once again they can be comfortable with the bliss of "knowing"
that "truth" is whatever those in authority say it is.

None should ever question this. Trust the judgement and expertise of more knowledgeable people, for it is to them it is rightly given authority over
all sheeple.

Reality Check:

There is and ever was only one good shepherd, and there is every year
a birthday celebration that happens about two weeks from today on the 25th of December. The truth shall set you free.

Merry Christmas



[Edited on 11-12-2010 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 07:16


That's it! Hook, line, sinker, rod and angler . . .
Phew!

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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 07:44


That was Jonah .....and the whale wouldn't you know it ...got indigestion!:P
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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 09:24


"Then if they want you, that's exactly what will happen."

Probably so. Yet my life is of value to me so the cost will be great. You see I am from the old school where the saying "better dead than red" is not mere words, it's a way of life. Does not matter if the red comes from across the ocean or across the street.

Are we all supposed to give up home experimenting just to be safe from an unconstitutional assault upon our just way of life. By "just way of life" I mean we (U.S) are a nation of laws. Myself I believe in obeying those I see the need for and agree with. Example we do not make and stockpile explosives or destructive devices (or other mayhem in general) so gardeners can blow their feet off. We do not create situations which put our loved ones or neighbors in harms way. These laws were needed no doubt right after LEO got tired of scraping people off walls. We do not conduct experiments in such 'occupied structures' settings, which could result in harm to any. We live trying to always keep common sense at our side. For officials in the first story to tell everyone this guy put them all in grave danger" is a lie, propaganda, resulting from cowardly hysterical completely unjustified fear.

In the first post the guy in the story did none of these things. I will say however we learned never to let our younger siblings mess with stuff in our house painting us a target. Only common sense.





[Edited on 12-11-2010 by IrC]




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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 11:43


Quote:
You see I am from the old school where the saying "better dead than red" is not mere words, it's a way of life.

Oh, the fun of McCarthyism - it's just what's needed now!
Tea party too liberal for you, IrC?
WTF!

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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 12:59


Hmm, I wonder if I should call the cops about my neighbour's liquid state gas-petroleum protein/carbohydrate incendiary device. It's massive. 6 burners, side plate, even a grilled plate. It's almost as big as my car. This is beyond acceptable.


/What? What do you mean it's a BBQ? I don't care what you call it, it's dangerous!




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I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
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IrC
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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 13:43


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
You see I am from the old school where the saying "better dead than red" is not mere words, it's a way of life.

Oh, the fun of McCarthyism - it's just what's needed now!
Tea party too liberal for you, IrC?
WTF!



You really do need to get your head out of this attack mentality. How is free debate possible if every time an opinion is expressed you must rush in and judge, always coming up with your worst case scenario of how you perceive the mindset of another. Coming up with some names and buzzwords and using them in a personal attack. America was founded as a free republic and I will fight to keep it this way. If you are unhappy with a free republic get out and move somewhere you feel more comfortable.

Your attitude makes this board a much lesser place to be.

Might I suggest Albania.




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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 14:00


Hissingnoise, IrC's comment may reveal a political perspective that you disagree with. But I hope that any member of this site would agree with the sentiment against persecution of our hobby by suspicious, overzealous government and fellow citizens, whether you perceive a leftist or rightist character to that zeal. There is no reason to pick a fight about the issues that divide us in this thread when a slightly more charitable reading would find common ground.



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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 14:51


There are not enough facts here.
Neighbor calls police? - WHY?
Police ask to come in and this guy lets them and starts talking his way into court.
Prosecutor wants the case? Bulls*t! This will be plea bargained down to Heaven Knows What (possession of vacuum in occupied dwelling).

(Likely scenario:)
1.) Neighbor has a problem with this guy or (more likely) neighbor thinks the guy IS a druggy & MUST do his civic duty. Remember one very pertinent fact - that was a 500 pound vacuum chamber: that was not a flask and a can of paint thinner.

2.) Police have never SEEN device before but HAVE seen films where household chemicals have becomes smoke-able mescaline laced with tropical frog poison.

3.) The individual himself is foolish because he lives in a damn apartment building where thin walls make for masturbatory echos.

I am in total agreement that this is tragically foolish. However I also see where this can snowball. Large-scale professional lab equipment is an oddity in an apartment.
We live in a world with IDIOTS who think that living in fear is living in knowledge.
People; PLEASE - realize that the average individual gets entertainment out of watching a television. What's more, they watch shows like "Dancing With The Stars"! Some of the most dangerous people are the gullible and the stupid.




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