Sauron
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Remember the Multiton AN Purchase in Canada?
The first conviction of one of the "Toronto 18" accused terrorists has been obtained by a Canadian court. The 20 year old was convicted of knowingly
participating in a plot to behead the Canadian PM, truck bomb nuclear power plants (I guess this is what the AN was for) and so on.
Ten more persons await trial.
Seven have been released.
If anyone is wondering how this topic meets criteria for this thread, consider all the kvetching about restrictions on AN sales.
Twenty years ago I wanted to buy a 25 Kg sack of tech grade AN along with NaOH to prepare blueing salts (for black oxiding of steel). In USA I would
have just bought the salts from Brownell's but here in Thailand there are no such suppliers and I figured mixing my own would be better than importing
from USA by ocean.
I was curtly informed that AN was "an explosive" and that I would need a permit from the Ministry of Industry.
Restrictions on AN are not new, and terrorist exploitation of ANFO is not passe.
The trial judge characterized the evidence against this person, first of the conspirators to be tried, as "overwhelming."
So do not expect AN restrictions, where they exist, to be lifted, and do expect more of the same.
[Edited on 26-9-2008 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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franklyn
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Restrictions in the U.S. ( depending on the state ) amount to checking ID.
One does that for buying alcohol , tabacco and firearms , all the province
of BATF, so why should explosives be excluded.
If you know what to look for, one can still buy a modest amount of AN on ebay
but you do pay a premium for it. I imagine importing such an item into the
land of smiles would be ill advised.
.
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MagicJigPipe
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Because AN is only an explosive if certain deliberate and critical actions are taken.
AN is hard to detonate and use as an explosive unless you purchase AN made specifically for explosives. I mean, nitrocellulose can be added to an
explosive and then used but it doesn't mean it is a true explosive (or even be used in place of an explosive with a sacrifice of "power"). I believe
the same holds true for fertilizer grade (or lab grade I suppose) AN. Or any other oxidizer for that matter.
Also, they don't just check ID for this stuff. They write down and keep your info. Just like if you bought some pseudoephedrine (which is also BS in
my opinion, no matter how effective at "combating drug use" it is). It's too much. It has to stop somewhere. Otherwise, where will it stop? All of
your purchases tracked? An interview every time you buy something the least bit suspicious? A visit from the cops after said purchase? It must stop
now or else it never will.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sauron
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Why don't you tell the folks in Oklahoma City how hard AN is to detonate? Or Texas City? We both know what is required. We both know it is a blasting
agent not HE.
The situation is reality. You want to whinge and rant at the gods, go ahead. That will change nothing. This Canadian case is a perfect illustration of
WHY the authorities are interested in who buys AN and why they say they do.
[Edited on 27-9-2008 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Panache
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Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Because AN is only an explosive if certain deliberate and critical actions are taken.
AN is hard to detonate and use as an explosive unless you purchase AN made specifically for explosives. I mean, nitrocellulose can be added to an
explosive and then used but it doesn't mean it is a true explosive (or even be used in place of an explosive with a sacrifice of "power"). I believe
the same holds true for fertilizer grade (or lab grade I suppose) AN. Or any other oxidizer for that matter.
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This is a really ignorant question but my knowledge of explosives is limited to mixing ammonia solution and iodine, but my 500g of lab grade AN is
completely innocuous correct? There is no chance if say i dropped it it could explode. I have had it for like 15years and its still sealed.
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Sauron
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No danger at all.
AN mixed with a suitable fuel oil, ANFO, is a low explosive (blasting agent).
AN itself is pretty innocuous, except under extraordinary conditions like the Texas City didaster of 1947.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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raiden
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Panache
| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Because AN is only an explosive if certain deliberate and critical actions are taken.
AN is hard to detonate and use as an explosive unless you purchase AN made specifically for explosives. I mean, nitrocellulose can be added to an
explosive and then used but it doesn't mean it is a true explosive (or even be used in place of an explosive with a sacrifice of "power"). I believe
the same holds true for fertilizer grade (or lab grade I suppose) AN. Or any other oxidizer for that matter.
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This is a really ignorant question but my knowledge of explosives is limited to mixing ammonia solution and iodine, but my 500g of lab grade AN is
completely innocuous correct? There is no chance if say i dropped it it could explode. I have had it for like 15years and its still sealed.
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Nah it's fine.
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Klute
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There was a pretty large explosion in my Town in 2001, supposibly becasue of a large pile (300-400 tons) of low-grade AN, the factory blew up killing
30 people. But we where very lucky, as the phosgen-producing plant a few hundred meters away resisted and there was no phosgen leak. You can imagine
the result if it did. There was also a plant producing various methyalted hydrazines, rocket fuel. I can tell you the south -west of the city was in a
bad state after the explosion, but i guess it could ahev been much worse...
There are still no public conclusive reasons. It was immediatly called an industrial accident, even though some pretty strange facts happened (I will
not go in any detail), and the offcial version was that some worker accidently mixed DCCA in the AN pile, but after a reconstruction, they realized it
would have bene impossible to confuse DCCA and AN simply because of the strong chlorine smell and apparance.
I was very surprised see very little about this explosion in english-speaking websites, eevn the Wiki entry on AN explosion doesn't mention it.
Anyone willing to learn more about it read about the AZF explosion in Toulouse, France, on the 21 september 2001 (you can understand the initial fear
about a terrosist attack, considering how fresh the twin tower where at that time..)
What's left of the site (a research facility on cancer is currently being built, I drive by it eevry morning  ):
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=43.567250,1.427171&spn=0....
Found this english article:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/sep2001/toul-s25.shtml
[Edited on 6-10-2008 by Klute]
\"You can battle with a demon, you can embrace a demon; what the hell can you do with a fucking spiritual computer?\"
-Alice Parr
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Magpie
lab constructor
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Klute that is a pretty impressive hole in the ground, as shown in the Google map. Thanks for sharing.
| Quote: |
I was very surprised see very little about this explosion in english-speaking websites, eevn the Wiki entry on AN explosion doesn't mention it.
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People seem to view these catastrophic industrial accidents as an acceptable price to pay for our modern conveniences. But if it were definitely
known to be terrorism then even a much smaller explosion would cause worldwide headlines. Acts of terrorism make people nervous everywhere, not just
where they occur.
I found it somewhat humorous that this socialist newpaper managed to imply that accidents like this are enabled because of capitalism. 
[Edited on 6-10-2008 by Magpie]
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Sauron
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Anyone who can obtain a military demolitions manual, especially one dealing with improvised explosives, such as a special forces manual, or various of
the better non military books on the subject, have the details.
BUT it is way off base to discuss that technology on this forum, just as Polverone if you don't believe me.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Magpie
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I didn't even think about that. It's been deleted.
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Sauron
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I don't think you were over the line, just dancing close to it. Discussing what sort of additive is best to sensitize, bad enough, but talking about
initiation, that would be WAY out of line. It isn't that such info is hard to come by, it's just that Polverone does not want it on here, or so I am
given to understand. If I am in error he can speak for himself anytime.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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