allyncondon
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acetone intollerant substance
Hi i am wondering does anyone know what can be used to polish steel after it has been sanded to a smooth finish but will not be removed when wiped
with acetone. The surfaces are polished to a fine finish to run smooth over ice but am looking for something to give them even more speed.any help
will be appreciated
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chemrox
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steel that will not be removed by acetone? that can't be the question. what are you asking?
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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hissingnoise
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Chemrox, I think he wants to apply some kind of wax to the steel to increase its slipperiness on ice.
I don't know of any polish insoluble in acetone, but there could be one, possibly.
The finer the finish, though, the more slippy the steel.
After that, you're talking small rockets on skates. . .
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bfesser
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Teflon.
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Nicodem
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You could try hydrophobizing with CH3(CH2)17SiCl3 or CH3(CH2)17Si(OEt)3. As far as I know, both are relatively quite cheap and are said to actually
work on steel. This way you will not just get the most ice slippery steel possible, but as a bonus you also also protect it from corrosion. There are
other hydrophobizing reagents you could use that might work better at forming a hydrophobic monolayer on steel.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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allyncondon
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would the steel need treating with the solution before or after they had been sanded and then if they were wiped with acetone and lemon after would
the solution still be effective
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hissingnoise
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(sigh) Allyn, applying a coating and sanding it off is *not* a good idea.
As for acetone and lemon---one is a potent organic solvent and the other is acidic; will the thing work without wiping your steel with either of them?
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kclo4
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Perhaps if you tell us what you are doing, we could help more?
I like the hydrophobic idea. What about other options to decrease its friction? Perhaps getting it really hot would cause the Ice to vaporize, so it
would essentially ride down on the steam/air? Or, try using dry ice (solid CO2) as it has different properties.
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hissingnoise
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Since Allyn may want more speed in ice-skating, a tentative look at the physics might be in order.
Ice in contact with steel liquefies at the interface when pressure is applied and it is the lubricant effect of this liquid layer which makes ice
appear slippery.
If the surface of the ice is some degrees below zero increased pressure is needed for this liquefaction.
Ice, then, at O*C will be slippier than ice at a lower temperature.
The size of area of steel in contact with the ice also has a bearing; a smaller area effectively increases pressure (from the skater's weight) on the
steel, allowing for easier liquefaction.
Polishing the skate's steel surface along its length will allow the skate to move easily on ice and using extra-fine abrasives to finish will help in
this regard.
Skates with a mirror-finish should, I imagine, have increased speed over skates with a duller finish.
It's probably a question of elbow-grease---and time! Lots of it. . .
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vulture
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Teflon. IIRC, the friction coefficient between Teflon and ice is the lowest known to man. Teflon is also resistant to acetone.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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kclo4
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| Quote: | Originally posted by hissingnoise
Since Allyn may want more speed in ice-skating, a tentative look at the physics might be in order.
Ice in contact with steel liquefies at the interface when pressure is applied and it is the lubricant effect of this liquid layer which makes ice
appear slippery.
If the surface of the ice is some degrees below zero increased pressure is needed for this liquefaction.
Ice, then, at O*C will be slippier than ice at a lower temperature.
The size of area of steel in contact with the ice also has a bearing; a smaller area effectively increases pressure (from the skater's weight) on the
steel, allowing for easier liquefaction.
Polishing the skate's steel surface along its length will allow the skate to move easily on ice and using extra-fine abrasives to finish will help in
this regard.
Skates with a mirror-finish should, I imagine, have increased speed over skates with a duller finish.
It's probably a question of elbow-grease---and time! Lots of it. . . |
Are you sure it melts? I've heard that it had to do with some sort of funky bonding thing that makes the top layer of molecules able to bend and flex.
Also this talks about how as the sub-zero ice temperatures increased, so did the friction.
http://www.geo.hunter.cuny.edu/~hsalmun/ice_phy2day.pdf
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12AX7
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Common misconception: the pressure is in fact too low (by orders of magnitude) to cause melting by pressure. It's just ice's low coefficient of
friction at work!
Tim
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kclo4
Are you sure it melts? |
I've always believed it melts, but I haven't given it much scrutiny (until now).
It's what I was told and I accepted it without a lot of thought.
Experience appeared to verify it. . .
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 12AX7
The pressure is in fact too low (by orders of magnitude) to cause melting by pressure.
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Tim, that's not correct; try the weighted wire loop on the ice-cube trick.
It demonstrates the principle leaving the ice-cube intact and the wire on the floor.
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12AX7
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Ah, but what weight? The pressure is much higher (maybe an order of magnitude or two), depending on what size of wire used.
In this diagram for instance:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html
it can be seen that pressures over 10MPa (100 atm / 1500 PSI) cause a noticable drop in melting point of ice Ih. A 100kg (= 1kN) skater on two 20 x
0.25 cm skates (0.2 x 0.0025 * 2 = 0.001 m^2) exerts a pressure of 1MPa. On edges, where the area is a tenth of this or less, pressure may become a
factor, but skates slide just as well flat so this isn't a useful explanation.
Their statement:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/explan2.html#Pmelt
Tim
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hissingnoise
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I think the passage of unweighted wire through ice would be exceedingly slow, but even unweighted wire would eventually make its way through an
ice-cube.
I've noticed a certain shoe-stickiness on ice in very cold weather; my weight, presumably, isn't enough then to cause melting of the ice, whereas
newly-formed ice seems very slippery.
Skates, though, have very small areas in contact with the ice.
The attachments do look interesting but I haven't time to read them in full.
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allyncondon
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hi just to clear things up it is actually bobsleigh and steel runners the problem is they cannot be heated as the runners have to be within 2 degrees
of the test runners and before each race we sand the runners to get them prepared but before we compete they have to be run over with a low grade
paper(5 wipes) and then wiped with both acetone and lemon to clear of anything apparently put on them
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hissingnoise
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Arrgghhh! You're just looking for an unfair advantage over your competitors!
Detritus!
(just joking)
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allyncondon
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well i am actually trying to find out what unfair advantage other competitors are gaining over us
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hissingnoise
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OK, not a Welsh ice-skater, or someone on an innocentive challenge, but your difficulty isn't easily soluble.
There is a marine polish which contains teflon powder but the binder (carrier) may not stand up to acetone---worth googling possibly?
[Edited on 13-12-2008 by hissingnoise]
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12AX7
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Construct the runners out of polished carbide (or carbide coat them).
Tim
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hissingnoise
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Tim, Allyn may not know you're referring to tungsten carbide.
If he uses calcium carbide, for instance, he might go through the sound barrier on that thing, gassing or incinerating everyone following behind.
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12AX7
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Or titanium carbide, or silicon carbide, or hafnium carbide (the highest melting solid), or any other carbide used structurally for strength and
abrasion resistance, the purpose of which should've been obvious.
Tim
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hissingnoise
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Yes those would be more long-lasting but CaC2 would be more, er, interesting, IMO.
(snigger)
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