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Author: Subject: insurance
Jor
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[*] posted on 6-12-2008 at 13:36
insurance


This though has been stressing me out tonight. What IF, for any reason whatsoever, the house would burn down. People will find out there was a small hobby laboratory, not for bombs/drugs, but 'nerd'-like science. Would the insurence pay back for damage or not? Would a flammables safety cabinet make them pay out 100% certain? Would it be smart to have an insurance inspector come by to check out the lab (ofcourse everything cleaned, and stocks put away in the basement ,where we keep all our cleaning stuff anyway)?


Any thoughts? Doesn't stress this thing you guys out?

[Edited on 6-12-2008 by Jor]
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Magpie
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[*] posted on 6-12-2008 at 13:53


Quote:

Would it be smart to have an insurance inspector come by to check out the lab (ofcourse everything cleaned, and stocks put away in the basement ,where we keep all our cleaning stuff anyway)?


In my opinion this would be the death knell of your lab. But I can't say as I truly know the mindset of your local authorities or your insurance underwriters. Whatever it is it is likely subject to change at their whim.

Quote:

Any thoughts? Doesn't stress this thing you guys out?


Yes, this is but one stressor among others that we must indure to practice our hobby at home. You have to love it.
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woelen
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[*] posted on 6-12-2008 at 14:56


I would not invite someone from the insurance company to look at your lab. I have a Belgian friend, who let them know about his lab and in the end of the story they were doing so difficult to him, that he decided to dump the company completely and go to another insurance company. They wanted a complete list of his chemicals, a risk assessment for each chemical and they asked appr. EUR 60 more per month for insurance because of all the risks. He only has a few liters of flammable solvents, just 1 liter of HNO3, H2SO4 and some HCl and a few solid chemicals, nothing really special and nothing really corrosive or toxic.



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Saerynide
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[*] posted on 6-12-2008 at 16:00


I definately don't think it would be wise. You would probably either get your contract revoked or even get raided.

I think the risk of burning down one's house (or worse, rental property) is a risk we have to live with. If we can't take that risk, then it's best to clean house and close shop. It's scary, yes at times, but I think one learns to accept it. Just don't leave any reactions unattended and make sure you have an extinguisher (or hose, if outside) on hand.




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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 6-12-2008 at 18:56


It would probably be cheaper in the long run (and less risky) to install an advanced fire suppression system in your lab (and a "suitable for living quarters" one in the rest of the house).

The reason I say this is because of the extra money you would almost certainly have to pay to keep it legit. Not to mention the risk of going to jail if your house does burn down and the cops/fire dept. find your lab. With all of these meth lab explosions in the past few years imagine would they would assume. Even if you weren't sent to prison you would likely be bankrupted by the legal expenses and fines.

Lab = Suspicious to mentally diminished authorities

Lab that has been burned = Even more suspicious and harder to prove that you weren't doing anything wrong (remember, we live in a time where the burden of proof is virtually on the accused)

Imagine if they did tests for chemicals "commonly used in the manufacture of drugs and/or explosives". And they found some (likely). Screwed!\

So, yes. I will be doing this as soon as I graduate and start making some (hopefully) decent money. In fact, it will be a priority. I think it should be one for all of us unless you just like "living on the edge."




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Magpie
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[*] posted on 6-12-2008 at 19:32


Quote:

It would probably be cheaper in the long run (and less risky) to install an advanced fire suppression system in your lab (and a "suitable for living quarters" one in the rest of the house).


Along this line I have given some thought to installing a fire supression system in my hood ducting. Since my ducting is PVC I am concerned about the possiblity of a fire spreading into the ducting. My plan would be to drill an appropriately sized hole, say ~ 25mm, in the duct midway between the hood and the outlet vent. On this hole would be glued a threaded half-coupling. A large CO2 fire extinguisher with hose would then be connected to this half-coupling. That way, if I had a fire in the ducting, or even just in the hood, I could immediately flood the hood and the duct with copious amounts of CO2.

This is similar to what I have seen in commercial systems on restaurant hoods. The only difference is that I believe they may use dry chemical and are triggered by a temperature sensitive sensor.
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Jor
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[*] posted on 7-12-2008 at 02:45


I have an extinguisher, a fire blanket, a fume hood, soon I will have a flammables safety cabinet, altough Im a bit low in time at the moment to pick it up. So I think i'm doing wel on safety, preventing risk of fire.
Magpie, why do a hose down system, I though PVC is hardly flammable, at least, I thought the burning is endothermic, because of the Cl-atoms... I might be wrong.

I will also remove soon many reagents I find worthless. These include my KNO3, KClO4, glycerine, citric acid, glucose ( i have a kilo of this, I need maybe 100-200g), boric acid, hexamine (although i like suprising people with fishy smell ;) ) and some others. Eventhough these are not dangerous, it doesn't matter to other, as they see a reagent as a reagent. The less reagents in my lab the better, as they are all in reagent containers.
And a very toxic one, HgO, I dont use it, because of it's waste, and it is very toxic, releasing mercury fumes in a fire. I have a friend on uni who wants it, so I will remove that as well...
Have you guys done this as well, doing a cleanup of reagents you don't use, to make amounts you have as small as possible?
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Sauron
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[*] posted on 7-12-2008 at 03:25


Basically, most every homeowner's policy against fire will require that the homeowner or anyone else occupying the dwelling refrain from storing flammable liquids.

While small quantities of flammable household chemicals are generally deemed exempt from this, for example nail polish remover, furniture polish, rubbing alcohol, liquor, etc and many people have 5 gallon (20 liter) jerry cans of gasoline in their garages for fueing the lawn mower etc., you can be sure that a home lab will not be regarded in a friendly light by the insuror and could result in denial of claim and/or cancellation of coverage.

If you are a renter or leasesee, your contract almost certainly contains such a clause.

If you are a homeowner, it's no better.

Better to site your lab in a detatched garage that you own yourself well away from the house.

Where I live and lease, it's a standard clause, no flammables, but every house has a LNG or LPG tank in the kitchen for fueling the stove and oven. Go figure. Electric stoves/ovens are not common, although microwave ovens are.

Shortly after I arrived here, and not far away from where I was staying, a truck loaded with LNG (propane, butane) cylinders came off an expressway ramp and made a turn a little too fast. The resulting explosion and fire was spread over two city blocks, a number of people in other autos were burned to death, an apartment house full of student nurses burned down killing all inside, all told more than 100 people perished. Yet it is still commonplace to see loads of the same cylinders being trucked around the city at all hours. And in both restaurants and private homes they are ubiquitous.




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woelen
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[*] posted on 7-12-2008 at 06:04


I do not throw away chemicals or get rid of them for this reason. Even stuff like H3BO3, KNO3 or KClO4 can be useful at times. Right now you may not seem to find a use for them, but they might do so in the future. So, I would keep them and store them in a proper way.

Extremely poisonous chemicals is another matter. I can imagine that you don't want much HgO around. I have some very toxic chemicals, such as HgI2 and HgCl2, but the quantities are small.




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Magpie
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[*] posted on 7-12-2008 at 14:28


Quote:

Magpie, why do a hose down system, I though PVC is hardly flammable, at least, I thought the burning is endothermic, because of the Cl-atoms... I might be wrong.


Jor, I have to admit I'm ignorant of the true flammability risk of PVC. Flooding the duct and hood with CO2 just seemed like the right thing to do if a fire got out of control.

Sauron, that is a truly tragic story about the LNG fires. This indeed points out the irony of government and insurance regulations. Governments forbid only what is convenient to forbid.

Most domestic fires that I read about are due to the careless handling of electrical appliances. These cause a huge amount of human injury and death, let alone property damage. Do governments or insurance companies train, monitor, or restrict use of said appliances? No, that apparently would be too inconvenient. Also large amounts (many gallons) of an extremely flammable solvent, gasoline, is routinely stored in attached garages, both in automobile tanks and in jerry cans. This is tolerated by governments and insurance companies as it would be too inconvenient not to.

Now the occaisional home chemist, there is a target that is by no means too inconvenient to harass, restrict, and outright forbid.
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Jor
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[*] posted on 7-12-2008 at 15:07


Also we have a fuel station here in the middle of the city. Above it there are apartments. And I think there would be at least a few thousands of liters of fuel. Now that's redicilous. And I have about 5-6L of flammable solvents.
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