Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Papaver somniferum, high thebaine phenotype. Soon attempting thebaine isolation.
Hello SciMad,
Many years ago I obtained some seeds from a friend overseas who I know from another message board. They are a papaver somniferum strain that was
specifically bred to produce a very high amount of thebaine and a very small amount of
(5α,6α )-7,8-didehydro- 4,5-epoxy-17-methylmorphinan-3,6-diol
and
(5α,6α )-7,8-didehydro-4,5-epoxy-3-methoxy 17 methylmorphinan-6-ol ( keeping some search terms out).
This is to drastically reduce the amount of people raiding the field and getting hurt. (because dying of convulsions similar to strychnine poisoning
is better?)
Anyways. I have one in a small pot indoors and it is approaching the "hook" stage and will show a beautiful bloom in a few days. I would like to show
you all some pictures of it, and when it blooms. I also thought it would be fun to look up some patents and try an isolation of thebaine. I doubt I
can from this little guy, but maybe come early spring I will get a row in the ground. If and when I do a write-up I will include any and all patents
or research I use. I still have a lot of reading to do.
Oh, and I have no interest at all into converting any thebaine into any variety of compounds you may be interested in. I would like it if it wasn't
discussed here, as it is not my purpose or intent and I don't want the possible thread to be derailed into controversy.
Here are the pics in chronological order.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1601-5223.1980....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thebaine
http://www.poppies.org/news/99502095862987.shtml
http://www.google.com/patents/US6067749
http://www.poppies.org/cgi-bin/historical/snapshot.cgi?az=sh...
More to come when I settle on isolation.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 989
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
i had a friend who was an expert on these plants and i have seen some of his work reaching well over 6 feet tall ...the one you've got might not get
over 2 feet.
when the nodule stand up and the flowers have bloom and the petals are gone , a brown circle underneath the nodule should appear indicating the best
time for all alkaloides to be harvest. including thebaine...its a nice interesting science project to isolate chemicals from plants the only problems
(other than legality in this case) is the very small yield per plant but a great chemistry challenge nonetheless.
good luck!
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
I've been growing papavers for years at home and at work (not somns though), and have been a member of p.org for some time, though I don't frequent
there much any more as my interests have changed. And I know what I'm doing when it comes to plants ;-). Yes, outdoors, a wintered-over plant can
easily exceed 6'. This specimen was grown in a 4x4 pot under 400w HPS. The ones I plant outside will be much larger, with multiple seed pods, and a
large tap root.
[Edited on 24-2-2012 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 989
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
oh i wasnt questioning your botanistic skills, i was simply commenting on a past experience, and noted the interest of getting some natural accuring
chemicals from the vegetal world.
i was recently thinking of extracting phenol from falling leaves in the fall...
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
The bloom is beautiful though, but short lived. I should have a bloom in the next week. I will try a micro scale isolation when the seed capsule is
mature. Then a more manageable scale when the outdoor crop is grown. I doubt I'll be able to get any yield with such a small amount of substrate
though. Still going to try. More pics soon, stay tuned.
EDIT:
In this post I had previously replied sternly to someone mentioning poppy tea, or ingesting alkaloids from the plant. I guess they have removed there
post (thanks), so I have edited mine.
[Edited on 24-2-2012 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 989
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
i am not familiar with the breeding of different plants sorry, i share your interest in chemistry you know. but i could ask my friend if i talk to him
again..
i am sure you already know all about erowid.com
[Edited on 23-2-2012 by neptunium]
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by GreenD  | Do you know their process of breeding for high thebaine content? Any genetic modification or purely classical, mendelian methods?
I look forward to this.
[Edited on 23-2-2012 by GreenD] |
Check the sources I posted.
[Edited on 24-2-2012 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
Morgan
International Hazard
Posts: 1694
Registered: 28-12-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
"It is controlled under international law, is listed as a Class A drug under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 in the United Kingdom and is controlled as a
Schedule II of the Controlled Substances Act in the United States of America."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thebaine
Whilst thebaine is a minor constituent of opium poppies, it is the main alkaloid present in a new variety of P. somniferum developed by Tasmanian
Alkaloids.
http://www.regional.org.au/au/asa/2001/plenary/1/fist.htm
Tasmania's Most Profitable Business
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lro4SvB9XrM
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Yes, I am aware that my little science project is illicit most everywhere. A sad, but perhaps necessary?, fate for such a beautiful and helpful
flower.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
GreenD
National Hazard
Posts: 623
Registered: 30-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: Not really high anymore
|
|
I'm curious, though, bot - why are you interested in this?
You could do just as well extracting some poly-alcohols from other plants and various methods. Why choose this illicit one - I'm not cornering you or
anything, I just don't understand why this compound if you specifically say it has nothing to do with the (removed) analog structure?
[Edited on 24-2-2012 by GreenD]
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Because I'm interested.
I sent a PM to you.
You can U2U me about personal matters please.
Surely I can do this project without to much drug stigma, as it honestly isn't my intent at all. I'm just curious if I can pull it off.
[Edited on 24-2-2012 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Bloom
Blooming now. A tiny peak at the seed pod. Going to be white petals with a stroke of lavender. Typical of Tasmanian varieties, IME.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
GreenD
National Hazard
Posts: 623
Registered: 30-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: Not really high anymore
|
|
Sorry - no stigma, just curiousity.
A very interesting flower indeed. The leaves are similar to tropical ferns, the stock and flower similar to a tulip, but the similarity to the poppay
is also easily seen! I always enjoy seeing similarities in plants. 
When do you plan the extraction?
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
"When the crown points to the heavens." Will let the plant get nice and dry now too. All records from the"triangle" suggest that dry weather a week or
two before harvest increases alkaloid concentration, obviously.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
GreenD
National Hazard
Posts: 623
Registered: 30-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: Not really high anymore
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist | | "When the crown points to the heavens." Will let the plant get nice and dry now too. All records from the"triangle" suggest that dry weather a week or
two before harvest increases alkaloid concentration, obviously. |
I've heard this with other alkaloids too, yet drying the plant itself for a few days reduces some alkaloids (decomposition). Is it increasing alkaloid
by wt% due to evaporation, or is it literally an increase in alkaloid amount?
The other plant is a grass which produces tryptamines. Reports of drought followed by a heavy rain produces greatest alkaloidal concentration.
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
I won't dry the plant, just let it wilt a bit the day before I chop. Let her get thirsty you know. The extraction will be from fresh plant material,
not dried.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
pedrovecchio
Harmless
Posts: 38
Registered: 12-3-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
How is the extraction going?
Add a little chlorobutanol (easy to make from acetone, chloroform, and KOH - use the search engine) to any alkaloidal solution you plan to store, it
will increase it's shelf life.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
