Lithium
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 25-2-2012
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Thinking!
|
|
esters!
hello
i, and probably many of you, like esters.
i have hit a fork in the road in terms of synthesis.
i know of three routes:
acid anhydride and alchohol react to respective ester and H2O
acid halide and alchohol react to form respective ester and HX
X= halide
carboxylic acid and alchohol react in presence of H2SO4 to form respective ester and H2O
i have no access to acid anhydrides or chlorides, nor do i want to use all of my precious H2SO4 that i don't have.
any thoughts much appreciated,
Lithium
(sorry if i missed a thread about this somewhere else)
|
|
|
Nicodem
|
Thread Moved
26-2-2012 at 02:21 |
Lithium
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 25-2-2012
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Thinking!
|
|
Damn, 2 in 1 minute.
this must really p**s you off how you have to keep moving all these threads, i'm sorry for annoying you
Li
[Edited on 26-2-2012 by Lithium]
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
How much H2SO4 do you have? For most reactions, it is only needed to protonate the alcohol to increase its eletrophilicity and thus is catalytic - in
most cases, only a few drops to 20ml is needed. You can even use hardware store variety acid . . .
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
Lithium
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 25-2-2012
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Thinking!
|
|
i have no H2SO4 and have never seen it in the store, would NaHSO4 or H3PO4 work? they are both quite acidic.
i could order sulfuric acid off ebay, but it would take weeks, perhaps ill buy some this weekend.
Li
[Edited on 26-2-2012 by Lithium]
[Edited on 26-2-2012 by Lithium]
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
I doubt that phosphoric acid would work in a lot of cases as it is a comparatively weak acid. The purpose of an acid, if you'd bothered to read the
mechanism for say, a Fischer Esterification, is for a protonation for nucleophilic attack. Thus, there is a chance that your carboxylic acid would be
stronger than the H3PO4, and the former would protonate the latter . . .thus completely ruining the reaction.
Just get some sulfuric acid at any cost - it is one of the main essentials of a home lab IMO, as well as hydrochloric acid, nitric acid, sodium
hydroxide/potassium hydroxide, sodium carbonate and a few other salts.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 989
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
agree! without sulfuric acid there isnt much you can do its a fantastic acide for many chemical reaction! in fact a country economy is directly linked
to its sulfuris acide production..
so you can get H3PO4 and not H2SO4?? weird !
the phosphoric is usually my problem!
get it from ebay there is a guy in Nebraska saling it for about 10 or 12 bucks 950ml its not food grade but its 98% and does the job nicely. never had
a problem with it
[Edited on 28-2-2012 by neptunium]
|
|
|
GreenD
National Hazard
Posts: 623
Registered: 30-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: Not really high anymore
|
|
amazon.com
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
Lithium is apparently located in Australia which raises problems in shipping and customs. There
is certainly no problem getting it in the United States. I recently bought a liter for about $12 with no hazardous shipping charges.
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 989
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
its not the first time i read about a home chemist having troubles acquiring chemicals in Australia , i think there is even a topyc on it....hope it
never gets like that here in the US!
|
|
|
Lithium
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 25-2-2012
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Thinking!
|
|
yes, i am from aus, and me and weiming1998 have been discussing this dilemma in the buying chemicals in western australia thread.
i am still unsure if i will get in trouble if i order some H2SO4 from ebay.
i have seen people use HCl as a catalysing acid, though that's only in their theory work.
i get my H3PO4 from a specialist beer brewing shop.
funnily enough, it is easier for me to get elemental iodine rather than sulfuric acid!
oh well
Li
[Edited on 29-2-2012 by Lithium]
|
|
|
phlogiston
International Hazard
Posts: 1379
Registered: 26-4-2008
Location: Neon Thorium Erbium Lanthanum Neodymium Sulphur
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
It must be available nearly everywhere as battery acid. It is my only source too. Here (the Netherlands), every car parts store sells it. I believe
the concentration is typically around 15%, but it can readily be concentrated if necessary.
[Edited on 29-2-2012 by phlogiston]
-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
|
|
bahamuth
Hazard to Others
Posts: 384
Registered: 3-11-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Under stimulated
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  | It must be available nearly everywhere as battery acid. It is my only source too. Here (the Netherlands), every car parts store sells it. I believe
the concentration is typically around 15%, but it can readily be concentrated if necessary.
[Edited on 29-2-2012 by phlogiston] |
Lead battery acid is closer to 30% IIRC.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
|
|
|
Lithium
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 25-2-2012
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Thinking!
|
|
i tried buying some but they said it would be "too dangerous" for me ( i am 13 )
my parents don't like driving me around to random places all the time.
i am planning on doing the iron sulfate oxalic acid route on large scale ( found some 120L buckets )
i have 5Kg of (NH4)2SO4, how would i turn this into FeSO4?
i was thinking of Fe(OH)2 or Fe2O3 and using the NH3 somewhere else
what can lots of NH3 be used for?
Li
[Edited on 1-3-2012 by Lithium]
|
|
|
weiming1998
National Hazard
Posts: 616
Registered: 13-1-2012
Location: Western Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Amphoteric
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Lithium | i tried buying some but they said it would be "too dangerous" for me ( i am 13 )
my parents don't like driving me around to random places all the time.
i am planning on doing the iron sulfate oxalic acid route on large scale ( found some 120L buckets )
i have 5Kg of (NH4)2SO4, how would i turn this into FeSO4?
i was thinking of Fe(OH)2 or Fe2O3 and using the NH3 somewhere else
what can lots of NH3 be used for?
Li
[Edited on 1-3-2012 by Lithium] |
Adding an iron acetate solution (which is created by heating iron/iron oxide and vinegar together in a beaker) to your ammonium sulfate. Boil the
resulting mix until crystals start to form. Turn off heat and refrigerate. Filter. Then there will be iron sulfate crystals (with trace ammonium
acetate contamination that won't really matter for this purpose)
|
|
|
Lithium
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 25-2-2012
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Thinking!
|
|
thanks! that is a good synthesis, though i imagine i would have to add things together stochiometrically.
i can only imagine the time and effort i would have to put into making a few litres of sulfuric acid
nevertheless, it would be a fun synthesis i could do in the school holidays when i have no overdue homework to attend to
i will just have to hoard the chems needed until that time.
btw, how are you going in your H2SO4 ordeals?
Li
[Edited on 1-3-2012 by Lithium]
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
