symboom
International Hazard
Posts: 1143
Registered: 11-11-2010
Location: Wrongplanet
Member Is Offline
Mood: Doing science while it is still legal since 2010
|
|
Biochemical Formation of Nitrates
so how would i go about making what it turns out to to produce nitrates biologically in a controlled environment.
using urea as the source of ammonia and co2 and water as the medium and using these two bacterium that nitrification occurs naturally.
i did find some packets of nitrifying bacteria.
like these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrosomonas
has any suggestions on growing these and separation of the nitrate and nitrite that is formed with out destroying the bacteria
1. NH3 + CO2 + 1.5 O2 + Nitrosomonas → NO2- + H2O + H+
2. NO2- + CO2 + 0.5 O2 + Nitrobacter → NO3-
3. NH3 + O2 → NO2− + 3H+ + 2e−
4. NO2− + H2O → NO3− + 2H+ + 2e−
|
|
|
bbartlog
International Hazard
Posts: 1139
Registered: 27-8-2009
Location: Unmoored in time
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What are you trying to do? If your goal is substantial amounts of nitrates and not just a proof of concept you will probably need a large volume of
your culture on some sort of spongy structural support... something you can then slowly pump your urea (or rather ammonia) solution through until it's
time to boil down and extract nitrate. BTW in practice you also need something to fix the nitrate and keep the environment neutral or maybe even
slightly alkaline. Historically, nitre beds used CaCO3 for this purpose.
Although there are modern optimizations (pH and temp control, continuous flow of nutrients and I don't know what else) that might allow for
substantial production in a reasonable space, the nitre beds of old produced something like 4 ounces of KNO3 per cubic foot every two years. They were
reasonably low maintenance but not really highly productive.
|
|
|
shannon dove
Hazard to Self
Posts: 77
Registered: 30-11-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Would the biochemical method be better than :
Distil crude ammonia from old urine, mix with air, run through red hot copper tube, mix the nitric /nitrous acid with oyster shells.
both methods start with the same materials. Which one gives a higher yield for the same amount of urine? (Of calcium nitrate /nitrite)
|
|
|
bbartlog
International Hazard
Posts: 1139
Registered: 27-8-2009
Location: Unmoored in time
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It's not an answer to your question per se, but it is probably not sensible to focus on the yield relative to the urea input. Urea is cheap, the time
and energy and possibly equipment that you will need to apply in order to implement either method is expensive. If you are considering doing one of
the two I would suggest choosing whichever fits your talents and inclinations rather than trying to guess which will make more efficient use of urea.
In either case I am sure that the yield is highly dependent on how much effort is expended in optimizing the conditions. And I believe that the yields
from the biochemical method are generally abysmal, at least in terms of nitrate out compared to nitrogen in.
The less you bet, the more you lose when you win.
|
|
|
shannon dove
Hazard to Self
Posts: 77
Registered: 30-11-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
My ultimate goal is to write a book called "energetic materials from rats, worms, and roaches. " . Nitrates from protein and urine, phosphoric acid
from bones ( replaces sulfuric acid) and cellulose and glycerine from plant and animal sources.
The title means that no matter where you are in the world, or what you have access to, you can make energetic materials. Rats, worms and roaches just
means commonly available materials, not meant literally. My first step was a simple method to make phosphorus (then the acid) from bones. This has
been about a thousand times harder than I thought.
|
|
|
ElectroWin
Hazard to Others
Posts: 224
Registered: 5-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
"a thousand times harder" literally? or is that hyperbole?
for a long time i have been interested in poor man's chemistry. it seems to me, that if you can employ technology known even in ancient times, such as
a kiln, and a forge, that temperatures of 1000C and more brings a lot of capability. on a recent episode of the TV show Time Team, a master potter
made custom earthenware and fired it in a makeshift Roman era kiln, yielding functional pieces in 3 days. it should be within reach to use the
resources of a high school or community college to make desired apparatus that enables phosphorus extraction?
|
|
|
shannon dove
Hazard to Self
Posts: 77
Registered: 30-11-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm interested in poor man's chemistry for a lot of chemicals electrowin, but there seems to be a difference in what's possible and what's practical.
As of right now, I'm just not a skilled enough chemist to make elemental phosphorus using all natural chemicals. Most people on here have made
phosphorus using aluminum as a reducer, I can't get anyone one here to show interest in other methods of extracting elemental phosphorus. I have
stopped researching for now, as I travel all over the country, I don't have time.
|
|
|
hissingnoise
International Hazard
Posts: 3940
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pulverulescent!
|
|
http://cavemanchemistry.com/ stuff!
|
|
|
plante1999
International Hazard
Posts: 1936
Registered: 27-12-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mad as a hatter
|
|
I already tried Ostwald process with good result, but I found it energy and labor intensive.(I now have 50g NaNO3 from it) So I may try this way to
get nitrate. So here is my plan:
I will take a large bucket (from 1 to 4 liter) and fill it with distiled water. Then I will add some Iron II, magnesium sulphate, sodium phosphate,
potassium chloride and calcium carbonate.
Then I will add ammonia or urea and this stuff:
http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/nutrafin-cycle-biological-aquari...
I will also add a fish air pump with stone and lets it run in my bedroom. time to time I will test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and when ammonia
concentration diminish I will add more urea/ammonia and other needed salts.
I may add more pump to get a bigger colonies. I will see how it goes and I may extract nitrate out of it later.
So what do you think?
I never asked for this.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
