| Pages:
1
2 |
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 699
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
Failing to detonate ?
A while ago i was trying to detonate 100gr of ANFO were it was a small tightly ball, placed into a small plastic bag for keeping it dry, But
unfortunately i fail, and i ask some help as i am a new to this hobby.
The cap was the following:
I took a firecracker and i cut it at the middle, i remove the flash-powder from inside and i use the lower section for filling the primary-booster and
the upper section for a time-fuse.
For booster, i put inside some nitrocellulose (were i took it from a shop for filling hunting bullets) and i place it at the bottom of the firecracker
with some acetone to make it denser
Then i fill the rest space of the lower section with moist (with acetone) TATP and i let it dry for an hour.
After that i put together the two parts of the firecracker and i place next to the bottom of it one small dense ball of nitrocellulose with tape for
booster also.
On top of it i place the small ball of ANFO hopping that the reaction to the follow...
fire of the firecracker -->detonation of TATP --> detonation of NC at the bottom of the firecracker, -->detonation the small ball of NC
--> detonation of 100gr of ANFO
I lit the firecracker and i run away from there. Suddenly a small sharp boom it comes and i saw the small ball of ANFO "fly" about 1/2 meter from the
earth.
I go there ti see what happens, and i saw a small hole to the small plastic ball of ANFO, the small ball of NC about 1 meter away, and the bottom of
the firecracker with the NC inside like some big granules.
So what was happened there ? Is it possible that the TATP never detonates and only deflagrates ?
|
|
|
DubaiAmateurRocketry
National Hazard
Posts: 841
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: In research
|
|
Nah, I dont think so. TATP is too sensitive for deflagration, but in an moisturized or dissolved form, im not really sure if it is possible for
deflagration.
probably TATP failed to initiate ? TATP is not that powerful, and that you moisturized it, making it even less powerful.
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 699
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
I let it dry... it was looking try enough
|
|
|
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by underground  |
fire of the firecracker -->detonation of TATP --> detonation of NC at the bottom of the firecracker, -->detonation the small ball of NC
--> detonation of 100gr of ANFO
|
I wouldnt go for NC (especially not NC alone) - because of its low density its hard to detonate !
Without it, you had much better chances, BUT....ANFO is some of the savest explosives out there (save enough that i used to take 2kg of it as a
improved pillow  )...it needs very much initialpower (booster) AND some
container like a cardboard roll (please no metal), so that it hasnt the chance to just blow away...
And make sure your initialexplosive is -completely- dry, make sure your annmoium nitrate is very fine powdered (coffee mill) and dry
if you have (fine) alluminium powder, add 1-3% to it and use less motor oil (3-4%) - AL is a really good AN sensitizer. With it, you could improvise a
booster (80 AN, 15 AL, 5 Flour)
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by underground | A while ago i was trying to detonate 100gr of ANFO were it was a small tightly ball, placed into a small plastic bag for keeping it dry, But
unfortunately i fail, and i ask some help as i am a new to this hobby.
The cap was the following:
I took a firecracker and i cut it at the middle, i remove the flash-powder from inside and i use the lower section for filling the primary-booster and
the upper section for a time-fuse.
For booster, i put inside some nitrocellulose (were i took it from a shop for filling hunting bullets) and i place it at the bottom of the firecracker
with some acetone to make it denser
Then i fill the rest space of the lower section with moist (with acetone) TATP and i let it dry for an hour.
After that i put together the two parts of the firecracker and i place next to the bottom of it one small dense ball of nitrocellulose with tape for
booster also.
On top of it i place the small ball of ANFO hopping that the reaction to the follow...
fire of the firecracker -->detonation of TATP --> detonation of NC at the bottom of the firecracker, -->detonation the small ball of NC
--> detonation of 100gr of ANFO
I lit the firecracker and i run away from there. Suddenly a small sharp boom it comes and i saw the small ball of ANFO "fly" about 1/2 meter from the
earth.
I go there ti see what happens, and i saw a small hole to the small plastic ball of ANFO, the small ball of NC about 1 meter away, and the bottom of
the firecracker with the NC inside like some big granules.
So what was happened there ? Is it possible that the TATP never detonates and only deflagrates ? |
You are like one of those kids who take some cartboard and toy motor and try to make a plane. Then wonder why it wouldn't fly at to well
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 699
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
Ok i made some tests to see actually how stable my TATP is and it looks really stable!!!
I saw in you-tube a video that it detonates from the heat of a match when it is no more lit but mine only deflagrats, also i tried then to light it
with a nichrome wire, (but unfortunately the battery was no full of voltage) and when i touch it with the hot nichrome wire, it first become liquid
and then starts to evaporate!! no burn to detonation...
Also the damage were made tot he small ball of ANFO was very little, i guess if it would be detonated, the hole bag should be crushed!
I only bring it to detonation (a small amount only) with a good hit of hammer on top of my vice, and it was really strong!!!
I prepare it with 10ml of acetone, 10ml of 35% h202 and 10 drops of 32% HCL into a Plastic film canister
| Quote: Originally posted by Ral123 |
You are like one of those kids who take some cartboard and toy motor and try to make a plane. Then wonder why it wouldn't fly at to well |
[Edited on 13-10-2013 by underground]
|
|
|
Gargamel
Hazard to Others
Posts: 166
Registered: 9-3-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I don't mean to be rude or something, but I don't think it's a good idea to help this guy endangering himself.
There's a lot more cool stuff to mess with when you start with this hobby, does it have to be HE charges now?
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 699
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Gargamel | I don't mean to be rude or something, but I don't think it's a good idea to help this guy endangering himself.
There's a lot more cool stuff to mess with when you start with this hobby, does it have to be HE charges now? |
Do not worry, that is ok, i have 6 years experience in rocketry and a little bit in pyrotechnics and the last 3 in High Power Rocketry, so chemicals
are a little bit familiar to me...
[Edited on 14-10-2013 by underground]
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 699
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
As i saw to this pdf file,
http://www.google.gr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&am...
the material of the blasting cap it really plays an important parameter, so i was thinking to try a copper or aluminum blasting cap... i guess the
firecracker blasting cap made out of paper was not very efficient... what do you think guys ?
|
|
|
snooby
Hazard to Self
Posts: 88
Registered: 24-5-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
@underground:
Stop playing around with aceton-peroixde and NC. First of all I dont think you will ever manage to set off 100 gram of ANFO, secondly: never with AP
and NC...
If you are familiar with chemicals, try to make some silveracetylide and some PETN or ETN. Then try to detonate 100g ANNM with it instead of ANFO..
After some time playing with AP you will probably/hopefully see that it's to dangerous to play with.. So be wise and stop playing with it directly and
spent your time in making a somewhat safer primary.
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 699
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
What about HMTD... ? Unfortunately i do not have any source of NM
I have to my mind to use MEKP for primary in the future, but unfortunately i do not have yet MEK, I believe MEKP is one of the best primary for many
reasons
I have also now order some erythritol, but unfortunately i do not have any available acids, but i will try to use battery acid and concentrate it with
boiling, and use it with some AN or Kno3 for making ETN
[Edited on 14-10-2013 by underground]
|
|
|
snooby
Hazard to Self
Posts: 88
Registered: 24-5-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
MEKP is a liquid and not easy to place in a detonator. However I think MEKP is less sensitive then AP and HMTD. Just totaly STOP thinking about HMTD
and AP, those are really, really dangerous and known as fingerkillers. I managed to set off HMTD with only a little teaspoon.. It's nothing, just a
devil primary explosive wich I am now very scared of.
Don't hurry with making a big bang.. maybe you can search for some concentrated sulfcuric acid. You can search on the internet on draincleaner, or
just go to some hardware stores and find this acid. Then get familiar with ETN (wich is also quite sensitive!).
I think the only way you can make a big bang at this moment, is with peroxides right? Be smart, take your bike and go get some chemicals.. (think this
is one of the most fun stuff to do within this hobby).
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by snooby | @underground:
First of all I dont think you will ever manage to set off 100 gram of ANFO, secondly: never with AP and NC...
|
Don't be too quick to judge people, when you aren't too familiar with what are you talking about. It's done here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbJYkJjmXkw
|
|
|
snooby
Hazard to Self
Posts: 88
Registered: 24-5-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I am familiar with ANFO, but not with little quantities like 100 grams.
@underground: just ment to say there are explosives far more easy to detonate then ANFO. Especially charges of 100 grams are really hard to detonate
if you dont have a really powerfull booster.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The booster is the same, no matter how much is the anfo. Just little charges may need confinement.
|
|
|
Fantasma4500
International Hazard
Posts: 1677
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline
Mood: dangerously practical
|
|
i think you should go for sugar dynamon instead..
95 5 AN Sugar (powdered both) is much easier to initiate
infact, keeping metal out of this whole thing is a good idea, ALTHOUGH it does increase performance slightly
if you can get acids for nitrating you can skip a part of the explosive train, but i think if you just use ANSU you dont need anything stronger than
AP, of what i recall 0.5g tetra AP was used for... 1.5kg ANSU???
i dont see why people keep using ANFO when you can use ANSU instead? perhaps its because nobody knows about it?
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 699
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by snooby | I am familiar with ANFO, but not with little quantities like 100 grams.
@underground: just ment to say there are explosives far more easy to detonate then ANFO. Especially charges of 100 grams are really hard to detonate
if you dont have a really powerfull booster. |
I will try to manufacture some ETN as it is easy to detonate compare with ANFO, i have also some hexamine What about tannerite, it is easier to
detonate than ANFO i believe...
| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | i think you should go for sugar dynamon instead..
95 5 AN Sugar (powdered both) is much easier to initiate
infact, keeping metal out of this whole thing is a good idea, ALTHOUGH it does increase performance slightly
if you can get acids for nitrating you can skip a part of the explosive train, but i think if you just use ANSU you dont need anything stronger than
AP, of what i recall 0.5g tetra AP was used for... 1.5kg ANSU???
i dont see why people keep using ANFO when you can use ANSU instead? perhaps its because nobody knows about it? |
ANSU it sounds interesting, i will try it but i just want to detonate small quantities at first, for safety reasons.
From the pdf were i posted before, it looks like a metallic blasting cap greatly increase the performance and VoD of the primary explosive. In fact i
would like to try to detonate some NC with TATP and a metallic blasting cup.
But the think that impressed me is that the NC does not detonate so easy!!
[Edited on 14-10-2013 by underground]
|
|
|
snooby
Hazard to Self
Posts: 88
Registered: 24-5-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Like mentioned earlier, try to detonate annm or ANAl first. A straw filled with 0.5gram of ETN and 100 mg of acetonperoxide should be plenty
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 699
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by snooby | | Like mentioned earlier, try to detonate annm or ANAl first. A straw filled with 0.5gram of ETN and 100 mg of acetonperoxide should be plenty
|
Ok i will try that one then i have the erythritol into my hands.
I will use erythritol tetranitrate as a booster and some amounts of AN/AL as a main charge and we will see what is going to happen.
snooby, can you tell me the percentages of AN/AL ?
P.S. I saw that threa there and i was very interesting...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24032
Is that mixture more sensitive than AN/AL ? if yes i will try that one.
[Edited on 14-10-2013 by underground]
|
|
|
snooby
Hazard to Self
Posts: 88
Registered: 24-5-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
http://williestop.tripod.com/Highexplosivespictorials/anmixe...
95 AN/ 5 AL
Or you can use for example: Ammoniumnitrate / nitromethane ratio 5:1.
These types of explosives are excellent boosters for ANFO.
|
|
|
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by underground |
the material of the blasting cap it really plays an important parameter, so i was thinking to try a copper or aluminum blasting cap... i guess the
firecracker blasting cap made out of paper was not very efficient... what do you think guys ? |
rule #1: do NOT use metals at your device if you dont have to - and when, dont watch the detonation (cover) and make sure that there are no
peoples/animals in a distance from MINIMUM 100 yards! my take on this, explosives are massivle overrated at danger (expect vom initialexplosives) the
main danger are fragments (of metals/glas/plastic)
you dont have to use metals (especially not if you are using peroxides! they react with metals) at your DetonatorCap...peroxides detonate even within
drinking straws and getting enough power to initialte AN-carbon mixtures...i bet, it was the NC, that made your Test unsucessfully
| Quote: |
I don't mean to be rude or something, but I don't think it's a good idea to help this guy endangering himself. |
well...i started the same way, so...i have to help...
i remember my first detonation - it was like a childhood dream came true
i started at zero (160g GRG1 ), then after a time, got a destillery, made
strong stuff (PETN, RDX and so on), made armourpiercing devices and now i am more at theoretcial stuff...i love explosives...so i do my best, that he
can (!as save as possible!) go the same way if he want to
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 699
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem |
well...i started the same way, so...i have to help...
i remember my first detonation - it was like a childhood dream came true
...so i do my best, that he can (!as save as possible!) go the same way if he want to
i started at zero (160g GRG1 ), then after a time, got a destillery, made
strong stuff (PETN, RDX and so on), made armourpiercing devices and now i am more at theoretcial stuff...i love explosives...so i do my best, that he
can (!as save as possible!) go the same way if he want to
|
You are just awesome!!!
| Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem |
rule #1: do NOT use metals at your device if you dont have to - and when, dont watch the detonation (cover) and make sure that there are no
peoples/animals in a distance from MINIMUM 100 yards! my take on this, explosives are massivle overrated at danger (expect vom initialexplosives) the
main danger are fragments (of metals/glas/plastic)
you dont have to use metals (especially not if you are using peroxides! they react with metals) at your DetonatorCap...peroxides detonate even within
drinking straws and getting enough power to initialte AN-carbon mixtures...i bet, it was the NC, that made your Test unsucessfully
|
Today i tried to do a blasting cap from a straw with TATP, the straw was a normal soda straw at about 3.5 cm long. I fill lt with moist TATP out of
acetone, and i pressed it with a head match, i let it try at about 2 to 3 hours (drying 2nd time) and then i ignite it with a homemade
kno3/sulfur/paper fuse, it just only deflagrates, no detonation at all.
I guess it was a little bit moist because, before i moist it with acetone, i dry it because i store my TATP into canister film cap with distilled
water (first trying time), so i guess the water does not evaporate completely, now i have some outside to try and i will live it all day to completely
dry, then i will repeat the same processes with the straw cap and we will see what happens, if it will detonate then, the problem should be the
moisture, so i must let it more to dry.
Also for a booster, i was thinking a mixture of TATP or HMTD with NC (50/50 or 60/40), i guess 2 grams of it as a booster would be ok...
[Edited on 14-10-2013 by underground]
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 699
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
Ok i have just tried the up one straw detonator, and it detonates, but not at all the way throw. The soda straw was about 5cm long, and it detonates
first and then a small quantity deflagrates, at about 2.5 cm at the end of the straw deflagrates, so what it may happened ?? i guess that maybe at the
end of the straw there were i little bit moist that is way that happens (note that the end of the straw was sealed with some tape), what do you think
guys ? Is there a possibility that the detonation stops because the straw was a little bit long ?
Almost the same was happens and when i tried to detonate a100gr of ANFO but the detonation there it stops also at the end, at the point of NC.
[Edited on 15-10-2013 by underground]
|
|
|
snooby
Hazard to Self
Posts: 88
Registered: 24-5-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The AP clearly is NOT dry.
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 699
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
Also i would like to ask something else, does it plays any role the main expletive's shape ?
For example if it would be like a ball or like a stick ?
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
