Tdep
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Xylene ozonide - project idea
Since starting explosionsandfire, I've wanted to do something awesome. Something that I haven't just copied from well known reactions on the internet
but something I've thought of myself.
The idea I've had is ozonides.
Namely xylene ozonide.
My friend is going to help me make an ozone generator, and I'm pretty confident that will work, although I won't say no to advice with that too. The
ozone will be created by 10,000volts and pumped through PVC before bubbling through a solution of xylene in butane. (Obtaining pet. Ether is too hard
to get).
This is all done at very negative temperature, not just to keep the butane a liquid but Federoff says that it should be conducted at -20 degrees. Dry
ice is a lot colder than -20 but a dry ice/ethanol bath should be the right temperature, and can be kept at -20 without tooo much dry ice.
I'm hoping to use clear plastic cups to hold the reaction, so that of/when the xylene ozonide explodes, I won't get glass shrapnel everywhere.
I haven't invested any money into this yet, so if this idea is shut down, it's not a major issue. Always more ideas.
So a few questions:
Is xylene soluble in butane?
Is PVC, and those clear plastic cup resistant to ozone? Or xylene for that matter.
I'm hoping to use just plain air to make the ozone, as a cylinder of oxygen is quite expensive, and unfortunately I'm on a budget. I know this will
make nitrogen oxides too, but I'm hoping this won't affect the reaction too much.
I'm hoping to enable to see crystals of xylene ozonide, as I'm assuming they will be insoluble in the butane solvent. Then if it all explodes, I'll
count that as a success (as long as no one is hurt, obviously).
I know benzene ozonide is the obvious aromatic ozonide to try but I don't have benzene. If there's a better ozonide to try and make, or a better
solvent, let me hear it, but it might not be available down here in Aus.
I don't want to die, and if freezing temperatures, thousands of volts, extremely flammable materials making sensitive and unknown explosives sounds
too suicidal, tell me. I'm not beyond logic on this haha. Thanks for reading 
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Tdep
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Oh forgot to add the picture, this should add a bit more context to what I'm trying to do
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Brain&Force
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Xylene should be soluble in butane, as they are both nonpolar. In fact I would expect them to be miscible. Xylene doesn't tolerate most plastics, but
you can use polyethylene terephthalate (PET) water bottles; look for resin identification code 1:
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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Tdep
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Xylene and PVC shouldn't be a problem?
(I know you have the xylene to test this for me  )
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markx
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Sounds like an overly hazardous project to me...high voltage, flammable gases and solvents, strong oxydisers and a highly explosive and unstable
product of mostly unknown properties in a technologically complex setup. Perhaps this one is best left alone...I mean there are so many aspects that
can go wrong with this experiment and lead to a serious accident. Also the reference you show mentions 15% ozone being led into the reactor...I doubt
your generator reaches such levels unless you feed it with pure oxygen from a gas bottle.
Exact science is a figment of imagination.......
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Tdep
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There is a lot to go wrong you're right.
I wouldn't be able to manage everything going on at the same time. But I'm hoping to have a few friends help me out. Someone to monitor the high
voltage stuff. Someone to keep the ice bath temperature at suitable temperatures. People to man kill switches and extinguishers if things start to go
sideways.
Definitely hours of planning are needed. This is pre-planning. (I'm not arguing with you, I like your opinion, I need to hear it)
As with the percentage of oxygen. Yes, using air we'll only get a few percent. But hopefully this will still produce the substance, just over a longer
time period? And using an oxygen cylinder pushes the flammability level to extremes...
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markx
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Quote: Originally posted by Tdep  |
Definitely hours of planning are needed. This is pre-planning. (I'm not arguing with you, I like your opinion, I need to hear it)
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Better make it weeks of preplanning...I suggest you test and observe the behaviour of all the units before attempting to join the system and
conducting the synthesis.
The ozone generator
The cooling unit
The reactor unit
Check the compatibility of materials with the solvents and temperatures, think ahead of how you can safely dispose of the unstable product, in case
the synthesis is a success etc. I sincerely hope you also plan for some sort of blast shield or containment for the experiment. Plastic shards are
every bit as dangerous as metal or glass when they enter the body, just with less penetrating power against containment. And they do not tend to show
up on x ray as easily as metal would....
Proceed cautiously and be prepared for the worst case scenario is my advice if you choose to follow through with the concept...
Exact science is a figment of imagination.......
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | I've wanted to do something awesome.
The idea I've had is ozonides. |
Organic ozonides have a bad reputation and few chemists will work with or handle such hazardous compounds!
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Tdep
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I just want to see the solid, and to let it detonate under controlled conditions (warming to room temperature will easily do this).
No handling, or trying to isolate it in pure form. Which I can understand why people would refuse to do something like that
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Tdep
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So I've decided this is going ahead. A air compressor is to be used to pump the air through the PVC tubing holding the coronal discharge. A
transformer has also been found, and wishing a few days the ozone generator can have its first test run.
The al foil is to be connected to the transformer via two screws sunk through the PVC.
I also have a litre of what seems to be quite pure xylene, and have seen that it is soluble in butane.
  
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hissingnoise
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Sorry Tdep, if the top pic is of the putative plasma generator, it looks a bit crude?
It's important to have a uniform spacing (~3-4 mm) between electrodes to prevent a full discharge occurring!
There are various generator designs you could google . . .
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Tdep
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Haha fair call. I should've probably waited until I tested it before posting.
It looks crummy because of the al foil, but it's really the best metal to use because of the passivation (right?)
I'll test it. If it arcs between electrodes, well then I'll have to redo it
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hissingnoise
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The project is just too fraught with pitfalls to be realisable . . .
Anhydrous oxygen is required as feed to prevent formation of NO2/N2O5 and H2O2 for
starters . . .
Even then, a good generator will produce at most ~ 3-5% ozone by volume which represents a large loss of gas you've probably paid through the nose for
. . .
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unionised
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If you bubble the output from the ozone generator through butane you will end up with lots of a mixture of a flammable gas and air (even at -20C).
What do you plan to do with that?
Any tiny spark from static or whatever ( the ozone generator would be a likely culprit) will blow the place up.
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Dornier 335A
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There is a solution to that problem. The gases could be run like ten metres downwind by a tube before it is released. Doing it on a somewhat windy day
should also help.
Considerable amounts of nitrogen oxides will form in the generator, but is it necessary to remove them? They shouldn't react with xylene at that kind
of temperature.
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plante1999
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I had a bad experience with nitrogen oxides in reactions that are particularly sensitive. Example, iodine, hydrogen peroxide and nitric acid
containing NOx...
[Edited on 6-10-2014 by plante1999]
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Tdep
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This is taking its time because of the transformer, the only part I don't have control over. Oh well, no rush.
So should I be worried about the NOx? I see no reason why. The gas stream is also going to have N2, O2, Argon, carbon dioxide and whatever else is in
air. And even if any of them react with the xylene or butane (which I have no reason to believe they will) they are hardly going to make a product
more dangerous than the ozonide. As long as the NOx doesn't destroy the xylene ozonide or prevent the formation, they're hardly the biggest issue.
What is a bigger issue is water. I did consider generating oxygen (although not like that) and feeding it in j-sum, but I think the water will do more
harm than good, especially as it's going to freeze in the xylene and sink to the bottom, which is exactly what the xylene ozonide will do. This will
lead to confusion of what's what at the very least, and cause it to detonate at the most.
So, I could do it on a very dry day (don't worry, i'm not going to cause a bushfire, that's not an issue) which will mean less water in the gas
stream. But that will make static more of issue right? Dry day, lots of plastic and pvc and electricity?
And the gas stream will always be on while the generator is on. the butane wont travel several meters against fast flowing gas in a narrow tube to a
spark. It shouldn't even boil.
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NitratedKittens
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This look interesting, let me know how it goes
Basket of kittens for you ........BOOM
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