shadowflare
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concentration/leeching of nickel oxides
i am currently trying to extract trace amounts of nickel from dirt, while i do have a method in mind i'd really like to avoid it. its part of a
project to extract carbon from the air using only materials found in ordinary air/dirt and energy -- including the equipment/reagents used to produce
anything else used in the project. i don't specifically need nickel just a catalyst for the sabatier process however i'm definitely bothered by not
being able to extract it. i've conceded that i'll have to use some amount of carbon from elsewhere to make cyanide and microcontrollers/mosfets for
automating most processes. extracting even common metals from regular dirt is a painfully tedious and slow process so no way am i gonna do all that by
hand.
back on topic,
the only viable option ive come up with is leeching with cyanide compounds, both the production and usage of which have a undesirable amount of risk
associated.
the sheer amount of safety equipment and procedures needed to (reasonably) use cyanide on any appreciable scale hurts my head to think about, its not
impossible but really i don't think i want to do anything like that if i don't have to and just waving those things seems like a even worse idea to
me. on the upside cyanide route will net a decent amount of gold as a biproduct; but i think i'll save that extraction for when i'm not putting
constraints on myself.
can someone help me come up with a easier way of doing it? i was thinking theres gotta be some other solvent that i could make, but stuck on trying to
figure out what. i don't think electrochemistry would be very helpful, its such a incredibly low concentration i can't imagine that being a practical
route.
after writing this, i realized that while completely insane technically i could use distilled water. it would require a incredible amount at that
solubility; i don't even wanna think how many GJ it would take.
ps new to board please be patient
[Edited on 29-7-2025 by shadowflare]
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chempyre235
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I've read that some plants, such as tobacco, accumulate heavy metals from soil naturally. IIRC, there was also several species of fungus that also
share this characteristic.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09596...
"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results." -Winston Churchill
"I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride." -@Madscientist
"...the elements shall melt with fervent heat..." -2 Peter 3:10
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Twospoons
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Plant based extraction is being tested as a commercial venture. The plant is a variety of mustard, and accumulates nickel as a defense.
https://youtu.be/l1-hqNZUAYc?si=54nwQ_N7mGU-UHGL
List of hyperaccumulators
[Edited on 29-7-2025 by Twospoons]
Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
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shadowflare
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i think i figured it out, obvious in retrospect.
nickel oxide has poor solubility in water, however the chloride has excellent solubility. as it happens the dirt i have samples of is relatively rich
in chloride salts, primarily kcl. so my thinking here is making hcl from the salts, then react it with everything else present; after which i can wash
with water, boil off the water, then its just simple electrochemistry to extract the nickel from everything else.
the only real issue i'm concerned about is that i'm effectively making powdered cancer as a intermediate. i'm gonna get to work setting up a safety
checklist and experimental procedure. see if it works, be back in a few days with news/data to share. i have absolute confidence that this will work
without issue, so i need to be extra cautious to make sure that doesn't make me negligent or biased towards the result which is a major timesink.
[Edited on 1-8-2025 by shadowflare]
you may not care about safety procedures but safety procedures care about you
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bnull
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It's not as obvious as you think. There's a limit of how much MacGyvering you can do in chemistry. Could you please give us a more detailed
description of the project? The more we know, the more appropriate for the project the suggestions will be.
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RU_KLO
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I think that before attempting any experiment try to get more information of your source material.
For example:
a) i am currently trying to extract trace amounts of nickel from dirt.
Are you positive that your "dirt" contains nickel?
If you are taking dirt from a nickel processing facility, probably yes. If you take dirt from your house, probably not.
Apart from nickel, is there any other element in there?
Nickel is a transition element, like cobalt , and iron - which is (I think) more commom in household enviroment.
And its very difficult, without proper reagents (or procedures) to separate between these 3 elements. (because of proximity in the periodic table, and
properties.)
Also nickel could be "alloyed" with other metals, which makes it more difficult.
If you want to do it anyways:
I would first make a physical separation, with a strong magnet (as nickel is ferromangnetic) - ex. neodinium magnet.
This would remove most elements, keeping the problematic ones (iron/cobalt)
and then a chemical separation. (there is a special reagent for nickel: Dimethylglyoxime (DMG))
Dimethylglyoxime (DMG) is a chemical compound, specifically a dioxime, with the formula C₄H₈N₂O₂. It's a white, crystalline solid used
primarily as a sensitive and selective reagent in analytical chemistry, particularly for the detection and determination of nickel and palladium - AI.
If you dont want to use specific reagent, please check "qualitative chemistry" separation of nickel from iron/cobalt.
From AI:
To separate nickel from cobalt and iron, several methods can be employed, including solvent extraction, selective precipitation, and ion exchange.
Solvent extraction utilizes different affinities of the metals for specific organic solvents at varying pH levels to separate them.
Selective precipitation relies on pH adjustments and oxidation to precipitate iron and cobalt while keeping nickel in solution.
Ion exchange resins can selectively adsorb and separate the metals based on their ionic properties.
2. Selective Precipitation:
Principle:
Different metals precipitate out of solution at different pH levels or through oxidation.
Process:
Iron Precipitation: Iron can be precipitated by adjusting the pH to around 4-5 and adding an oxidizing agent, like air or hydrogen peroxide.
Cobalt Precipitation: Cobalt can be precipitated by oxidizing it to a higher oxidation state (e.g., Co(III)) and then adjusting the pH to precipitate
it as a hydroxide or other compound.
Nickel Precipitation: Nickel typically precipitates at a higher pH than iron and cobalt.
Example:
In a study on separating nickel, cobalt, and iron from lateritic ore leach liquor, iron was precipitated with calcium carbonate at a pH of 2.2-2.5,
and cobalt was then selectively oxidized and precipitated.
Advantages:
Relatively simple and cost-effective, especially for initial separation steps.
Disadvantages:
May not achieve high purity separation; can be affected by the presence of other ions.
(this is what I got from simple google searching)
Apply the same with carbon from air.
(maybe is simplier by using calcium hydroxide - slaked lime)
pass air trough a calcium hydroxide - Ca(OH)2 solution. A precipitate of calcium carbonate is precipitated.
Apply heat (more than 800C to convert CaCO3 --HEAT--> CaO + CO2.
(CaO can be converter again to Ca(OH)2.
Capture the CO2 gas. and transform it into carbon (which is difficult and requieres a lot of energy).
Again from AI:
CO2, or carbon dioxide, can be converted into solid carbon through various chemical and electrochemical reactions, often involving catalysts and
energy input
recaping:
1) search if already there is a "known" process.
2) research your source
3) try to figure how much energy in needed
4) its academic research (or for the fun) or economically viable process.
Go SAFE, because stupidity and bad Luck exist.
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walruslover69
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IMHO
The easiest way that i can think of to turn CO2 into Carbon with only naturally occurring substances is as follows
Take your grass clippings or even better some wood, and simply make charcoal by thermally decomposing it. Then very heavily wash your charcoal to
remove minerals, you will have +99% carbon.
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Alkoholvergiftung
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Na2CO3 moist will absorb CO2 to form 2NaHCO3 Stored above 60C gives over time CO2 back or heated to 200C in short time. Thats much less energy
intesive. If i remember it correctly NaHCO3 was made with soda on towels or linnen and they lit the smoke from stoves throught it the temperature of
the smoke gasses was bellow 30C.( fire place wasnt directly under the towels).
[Edited on 2-8-2025 by Alkoholvergiftung]
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shadowflare
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ive finished, but i got way too overzealous with the data collection,the temperature data alone constitutes 128.6 GB of 16 bit integers and thats the
second smallest after the 3 videos of the experiment. i'm feeling burnt out/stressed after it, so i'll be setting this to the side and working on
other projects for a while. to me hobbies are meant to be enjoyable not a chore or at the least not outright miserable.
mixed results, but it seems pretty enlightening. definitely worth the effort.
i'm trying to extract trace amounts (<1ppb is somewhat realistic expectation) so i need to design the real thing with that in mind. also the result
was a flaky mess, so i'll need a way to deposit durable layers onto the catalyst substrate. also for the ones containing other salts there was a
gradient rather than a sharp transition between deposited layers, which will require further steps to isolate.
this is not a complete list/guide of what i did, but until i finish combing through the data (almost every test was automated) i'll share the more
detailed results. i'm here mostly to share what i noticed looking at the results, and reading the logs.
the purpose of this experiment is to provide control setups and highlight any issues with the process. for each reaction i mixed 5 grams of nickel
oxide with various substrates and used a saturated hcl solution.
i prepared the nickel oxide from dissolving nickel strips made for use as connectors in batteries in naoh, then heated to 350-400c in order to
decompose it. there is some amount of iron contamination, i am unable to measure the exact amount however for the purposes of this experiment i deemed
it acceptable.
substrates used (50 g each):
)0 control
)1 silica, prepared from sand ground with cast steel ball mill and rigorously washed with hcl solution, h2so4 solution, and naoh for 1 hour each
followed by a rinse with distilled water and soaked for for 20 min. dried in electric oven at 300-350c.
)2 aluminum silicate, purchased many years ago. supposedly laboratory grade.
)3 alumina/aluminum oxide, prepared from recycled pop cans reacted with naoh then thermally decomposed at 450-500c before rinsing with distilled
water. to remove magnesium etc contaminates i then reacted with pressurized chlorine gas, melted the resulting chloride in iron crucible, and used
copper electrodes and a atx pc power supply to deposit the aluminum. the center and outer edges of the resulting mass were discarded, and the
remaining portion was again reacted with naoh,rinsed, and decomposed for the final result.
4) calcium carbonate, prepared from calcium chloride water softener salt given for free. many other portions of this experiment required chlorine
gas, prepared via a slightly modified downs cell. this was included to make use of this biproduct. a portion of calcium metal was reacted with water,
then exposed to a stream of co2 gas produced from limestone firing.
5) several samples of dirt, harvested within 20m of 39°52'39.1"N 84°08'46.4"W dec 2023, at 50-60 cm depth. the only reason i chose this
particular set of samples is i knew where and when they came from. crushed, ground down, and blended into a nice homogenous mixture.
results:
i did a initial test run with sample 0, the first of 3 parts i actually did manually; and much before actually setting up the equipment and writing
the code to automate the rest. i just wanted to see if nio did in fact react with hcl solution the way i expected. at first it seemed like nothing
happened, but when i tried adding heat the reaction suddenly took off around 50c. the resulting solution was then put in a small stainless steel vat,
then electrolyzed with a carbon anode and copper cathode. there was some form of weird brown precipitate, replacing the carbon anode with a stainless
steel one and slightly raising ph fixed this. the result was a flaky grey mess around the cathode, and rapidly falling conductivity. after starting.
after melting the flaky stuff in a ceramic pot, i can confirm with reasonable certainty that it is most likely nickel, it was difficult to melt even
with a hydrogen torch but not as much as the oxides of other metals present.
for the automated tests:
every sample was tested 5 times(1-5), each with completely fresh reaction vessels, end effectors, and sensors.
largely the same as the test run, but smaller reaction vessels and steps to concentrate the solution and periodically brush the cathode clean every 30
min.
hcl gas is bubbled in from below for 1 hour at a rate of 1l/min, reactor is shaken every minute.
electrolytic step is 2v constant voltage, monitored via adc on rpi pico board. voltage correction managed by pid loop controlling a switch mode power
supply. cannot handle sudden changes(<5ms) well so added a abort trigger. max current cutoff is 20a. rather than wash and transfer it into a
different container, the substrate is contained in a fiberglass basket alongside the solvent in a 500ml volume of water for simplicity sake.
sample 0) . 4.9g recovered avg. high current density, brittle flaky deposit. first run had a extremely thin layer of decently adhered metal for some
reason. this is the fastest one, with a average time of 3 hours for the entire process.
sample 1) largely the same, but did not complete and current was lacking. aborted after 4 hours of no change in current/voltage, 4th run ran to
completion for some reason. less than 2g recovered, 4 grams for run 4.
sample 2) aluminum contamination, and a fine powder on the bottom of vat, recklessly assumed to be alumina or similar, discarded. way better adhesion
to cathode, broke the scraper implement. abysmal current density, stopped after 4 hours of no current/voltage change for runs 1,3,5.
sample 3) a complete mess, aborted for either overcurrent or excessive foam in every test. i'll need to finish dealing with the data before i can even
start to speculate here. i'm glad i was uber paranoid and considered the possibility of somehow producing overflow but not triggering the buoy switch
suspended over the solvent, this could have ruined all subsequent tests otherwise. lots of blackish grey sludge and corroded electrodes but no clear
cause yet.
sample 4) runs 2 and 4 triggered overcurrent stop, the rest except run 3 aborted at various times due to sudden drop of current. run 3 ended because
of no current for 5 min which is the completion condition. large mass of bluish white suspended gel-like flaky powder formed around cathode with run 3
having a rather impressive volume; suspected to be calcium hydroxide. cathode was reduced severely in all of them, runs 2 and 5 also show limited
anode corrosion. cathode consistently broke off near top except run 3 where it seems to have completely dissolved.
sample 5) was the weirdest of them, the results were extremely varied but they all formed black iridescent crystals at the cathode. runs 2 and 3
formed a whitish greyish powdery mess with several large black crystals and a inverted tower underneath the cathode, 1 and 5 produced a bluish green
powder, and 4 formed a pinkish powder. another pile of whitish brown powder forming on and falling under the anode for 2 and 4, but run 5 had nothing
at the anode.
i have mixed feelings about these results, but overall i think it was worth doing. having things react in the way you expect is pretty boring tbh, i
was fully expecting this to just work without issue somehow. i'll need to remove the contaminates before extracting the nickel metal, that much is
certain. i have no idea what the hell is going on with sample 5 and that excites me so much. i did all i could to make sure it was homogeneous yet
still it had such varied results; the rest of the variations could be explained as say slightly different electrode shapes or whatever but this one is
pretty wild. also the black crystals are weird, dunno what they are.
you may not care about safety procedures but safety procedures care about you
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shadowflare
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bnull i said "obvious in retrospect", which was very intentional wording in that case. its not obvious, just obvious when looking back after thinking
about it. the project is to make something out of dirt/air that can extract co2 from the air and turn it into solid carbon using only dirt/air to
build anything used in the process. so like, using a platinum electrode to make chlorates which are then used in part of something to do something
else is ng, but if i first used the iron i dug concentrated and smelted with tools only made from dirt/air to make an electrode that would be fine.
i've had to submit and use 12vdc for energy but other than that i think its not impossible.
ru_klo dirt will always have some amount of every known stable element, even if measured in parts per quadrillion or lower. its just impractical to
extract them in those concentrations. that is basically what i'm trying to do here, the impractical thing.
walrus plants/seeds are ng, not found in dirt but soil. fungal/algae spores are often found in air so using those would fit ignoring the lack of
material to keep them alive but this thread is specifically for nickel- just with the same restrictions as the rest of the project.
you may not care about safety procedures but safety procedures care about you
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bnull
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What is "ng"?
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shadowflare
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sorry, ive been reading a lot of japanese forums recently, they use romanji (english alphabet) for ng. made me forget that its not commonly used in
english i suppose. there is a bit of nuance in its usage but its not necessary to know here.
no go, no good, or no game. i guess no go would fit here best.
you may not care about safety procedures but safety procedures care about you
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