PonderosaP
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Asbestos catalyzed nitroethane synthesis design
This is my first post, sorry if it belongs somewhere else. I want to remind anyone reading this that they're involved in such a cool online
community. This extends to the 10 community members lurking around every single active poster. There aren't many gems like this one around
anymore. Thank you.
Does anyone have any details about this process or what the construction of the apparatus entails? A blip exists about it in the wiki but I couldn't
follow the information trail successfully.
I've had success with converting ethyl iodide to nitroethane using silver filings and sodium nitrite. I really appreciate the aroma of this compound
and would like to perform this synthesis. My grandfather passed away from lung cancer a long time ago, probably in part because of his extremely
large exposure profile to the wolly rock. He served years in the Navy during WWII on a ship, likely happily chiseling old boilers out or whatever.
He regularly sanded his asbestos clad house in preparation for paint. (Don't worry he smoked like a chimney)
When it was finally my turn to rummage his old repair shop, I found some exiting treasures from the 50s. He left me a nearly brand new spool of "the
finest PTFE coated asbestos rope produced, of exceptional purity"
Wil the catalyst be consumed during this reaction?
Thanks for coming to my TED TALK fellow madlads/lasses.
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PonderosaP
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At the risk of starting a thread doomed to obscurity due to overdiscussion and eye rolling specificity I offer an update;
Ive decided to fray/unwind a section of the packing rope to an extent sufficient to bypass removing the ptfe coating.
Ill fish this through a 10' stick of 1/2" EMT.
Ill then bend a bunch of U's into it to reduce how cumbersome it is.
Then ill add a 1/2" compression coupling and another 10' stick. Ill place a lawn sprinkler under this section. Finally ill terminate this section
with an upward bend of about 30-50* with a drip loop of tie wire attached a few feet before the end of the pipe. The aim is to have a final "flat"
leg of pipe which drips product into a steel or iron vessel on an icebath, free of cooling water contaminant but still in open air.
On the other end ill fit a male end via compression connector threaded onto a black iron tee. One side will be fitted with a silicone tube attached
to a pressure cooker charged with ethyl alcohol. The other end will be fitted with a (pvc ?) check valve. On the inlet side of the check valve
ill adapt a silicon tube to an empty 2 neck flask. The other neck will be adapted to a distillation setup or almbeic charged with copper
sulfate/conc. Sulphuric acid ready to accept a nitrate salt and feed the requisite gas slowly.
Comments or suggestions are appteciated. Will update with results.
[Edited on 3-9-2024 by PonderosaP]
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Rainwater
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I suggest having the asbestos materials properly disposed of or if qualified, destroy it yourself.
Using a flux if 3 parts NaOH, 1 part Boric acid, you should be able to melt the material at about 750c. Once fully melted, it is not asbestos
anymore.
I hate to recommend this but if you are exposed, or expose some one else, it can take days or 20 years for symptoms to start showing.
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
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PonderosaP
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Quote: Originally posted by Rainwater  | I suggest having the asbestos materials properly disposed of or if qualified, destroy it yourself.
Using a flux if 3 parts NaOH, 1 part Boric acid, you should be able to melt the material at about 750c. Once fully melted, it is not asbestos
anymore.
I hate to recommend this but if you are exposed, or expose some one else, it can take days or 20 years for symptoms to start showing.
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Thanks for your response! I didnt know that asbestos could be rended harmless this relatively easily. I wish the navy had bothered to do that with
the stuff before they had gramps demo it on their ship as a teenager.
I could destroy this processed mineral wool. Then how could I achieve an alternative procedure to produce nitroalkanes using a modular apparatus in
batch production without stinky halogens in a clean cheap and efficient manner without requiring gnarly carcinogenic solvents and painstaking liquid
separations or extractions and such?
[Edited on 3-9-2024 by PonderosaP]
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Rainwater
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Ya its just a mineral with a hair like crystal structure, lots of oxygen, silicon and some magnesium. The lye and boric acid drop the melting point
and change the toxic hair like crystals into sodium silicate.
| Quote: | | how could I achieve an alternative procedure to produce nitroalkanes |
Not sure, can you post some references your reading.
The only thing I was able to find on goodle was this paper about nitroalkanes being at higher consentrations in asbestos exposed lungs mater
https://www.jci.org/articles/view/3169/pdf
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
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PonderosaP
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Excuse me I shoild have posted the link in the OP
[Can a janitor reading this please edit my OP to include the obscure paywalled indian research paper from 1916 linked below? This is what Ive based
my assumptions on and foolishly omitted.]
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/1916/CT/CT916...
Adding:
I suspect the material you referenced actually gives a clue to the mechanism of this minerals peculiar [carcinogenic properties]. However i am
certainly not an expert in these matters(or any other matters).
[Edited on 4-9-2024 by PonderosaP]
[Edited on 4-9-2024 by PonderosaP]
[Edited on 4-9-2024 by PonderosaP]
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Rainwater
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non paywall artical
It looks as if the asbestos was a substrate for the catalyst, and a catalytic converter would make a good replacment.
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
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PonderosaP
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Thank you! That changes everything. Is the rearrangement of ethyl nitrite to nitroethane via Pt well known? I do think ive read that elsewhere.
Your link doesnt work for me.
Could you teach a man to fish? What did you use to cross reference search that article? Is there a unique ID to scholarly articles across different
platforms?
Is there already a guide to this sort of question written somewhere?
I think i found the whole archive.
https://archive.org/details/journalchemical06britgoog/mode/1...
On the topic;
I'll cut out my catalytic converter soon and post updates as i build my setup. Thanks for the constructive redirection.
[Edited on 4-9-2024 by PonderosaP]
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Rainwater
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google link
Attached pdf
The catalyst is easy to make. But it's hard to make right.
I dont know the details of this reaction but pt partical size has a major effect of how it rearranges the bonds, if the crystals are to big you get
slow reactions, to small and things go boom or woosh or just revert to carbon and diatomic nitrogen
Attachment: 10.1039_ct9160900701.pdf (463kB)
This file has been downloaded 496 times
Tips and tricks (youtube) for making a platnium on quartz wool catalyst
https://youtu.be/iaNSH89gpPk?si=5Ruyl-LdwVwULF23
The alcohol washing step is mostly optional unless sodium contamination with hurt your reaction
[Edited on 5-9-2024 by Rainwater]
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
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j_sum1
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Mood: Just got through yet another "take this job and shove it" moment.
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@PonderosaP
Welcome to the board.
Good discussion you opened up. I wish i had something constructive to contribute, but I have no experience of asbestos as a lab commodity and have
not worked with nitroethane. You can be sure that there are others reading who will add something if they feel they have anything to say.
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PonderosaP
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| Quote: |
[Rainwater]
google link
Attached pdf
The catalyst is easy to make. But it's hard to make right.
I dont know the details of this reaction but pt partical size has a major effect of how it rearranges the bonds, if the crystals are to big you get
slow reactions, to small and things go boom or woosh or just revert to carbon and diatomic nitrogen
Tips and tricks (youtube) for making a platnium on quartz wool catalyst
https://youtu.be/iaNSH89gpPk?si=5Ruyl-LdwVwULF23
The alcohol washing step is mostly optional unless sodium contamination with hurt your reaction
[Edited on 5-9-2024 by Rainwater] |
Thank you, good video. Looks like very accessible chemistry.
If I understand what your implying(thanks for the clean dl link, I'm excited to finally read this in full) this is a repurposed ostwalt catalyst. A
long and hot enough contact time may enable the feedstock of ethyl alcohol and ammonia? Or would the water generated bugger the reaction? From the
first page they stipulate dry co2 to carry the dry ethyl nitrate, so probably not.
[Edit]some trace moisture is necessary, but not too much[/edit]
If I want to use my rope I'll definitely have to remove the ptfe coating, or I'll make some super toxic stinky fluorethylnitrite type garbage. That
sounds gross. Might find another source of substrate or cut out my cat.
Is contact time important? A long unobstructed contact seems safer than a highly restrictive micropore ceramic.
[Edit]
4 to 5 hours at 120C
Looks like a long fractionation column would work better packed with catalyst under a heat lamp with reflux condenser back to the same flask.[/edit]
I only saw one reference to platinchloride, I don't understand where they actually say this is the catalyst on the asbestos substrate. Ostwalt
patented his process 13 years earlier, wouldn't the Indian scientists need to reference this if they used his catalyst?
Do you know how important the purity of Pt is? I have a few (presumably more pure) Pt spark plugs I could carefully file for metal, or I could draw
from the motherboard pile a board known to contain Pt. But separating this from other noble metals would be impossible.
I had assumed this metal mix would work well for something like this, as it would have a significant amount of silver admixture. I'll look in this
direction for a reference as "my intuition" is garbage.
| Quote: |
[j_sum1]
Welcome to the board... |
Thanks for dropping by, and for cleaning up the board.
[Edited on 5-9-2024 by PonderosaP]
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PonderosaP
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Can't believe it's been a year and a half since I looked into this.
I sold all my sh*t box cars last year, buyers usually want to see a catalytic converter still attached.
I've done some electrolysis on old circuit breaker buttons, mostly ended up with silver and (what I think is) cadmium, no PT yet.
Basically at a dead end on this, especially considering commercial sources haven't gone anywhere and likely will not any time soon.
Nitromethane continues to be the only accessable nitroester to DIY synthesis.
If anyone was following this, sorry to let you down.
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Sulaiman
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have a look at these
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196965811860
I bought elsewhere - just the catalytic material, not with the metal.
jave a look around for multi-unit offers etc.
EDIT: They are Pt on asbestos OR equivalent.
[Edited on 13-9-2025 by Sulaiman]
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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bariumbromate
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you could sell the rope on ebay as a collectors item? but possibly not a good idea.
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stygian
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I remember someone selling what seemed to be a wooden box full of PCB oil, and trying to warn them about it. I don't think they took me seriously.
Point being, I'm sure there's other asbestos things on ebay.
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MrDoctor
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asbestos i dont think has any especially unique properties you couldnt impart onto some pumice or alumina, or just get, period, with one of the main
candidates, silica, alumina straight, ZSM or montmorrilo bentonite, i think the last one is. one is bound to match or exceed it, and if all else fails
theres always good ole horse teeth.
powerboards for homes still use asbestos, but now its properly bound so it cant release dust, or maybe uses a different kind, either way, exempt now
from the notice and warnings the older asbestos boards require on ones fuse box.
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PonderosaP
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Im honestly unconcerned about disposal, its a sealed can of useful rope. If i dont use it before i die itll be my kids problem. One of them may
find it useful, or they may pitch it into the landfill. Its not illegal to own.
Sulaiman
Thats the rub I would be in if wasnt living in america.
Recently a car i sold for a couple hundred was gifted back to me. It has an aluminum engine block/head/intake and a huge cat. If i cant figure out
why the TCM is bitching and failing i may just drive it to the highest bidding scrapyard after i grab the cat. If this one doesnt work out, ill soon
get my hands on another sh*tbox. Before i got into this hobby, i knew an old car could boost a few horsepower without thst clogged sponge
obstructing engine aspiration after working hard for 200,000 miles. Ive sold a few of mine for beer money before the deathtrap it was attached to
finally stopped breathing.
MrDoctor
Well, that is VERY interesting sir.
I believe youre correct but i MUST request a reference if it is fresh on your mind.
What delicious irony my first post on SM has become. So many of you kindly warning me of just how dangerous my deceased grandfather's full roll of
seal packing in a complete metal tin is appreciated, albeit immediately (politely i hope) ignored.
Ive demolished literally hundreds of electrical panelboards made last century, and worked inside hundreds more that could continue service. Never
heard a single warning from the journeymen teaching me on the job, in the classroom, or in the hall. I know the distinct smell of the shit, i would
recognize it decades from now. Part of the reason i work for myself is the aspiration that i may never ask of myself to crawl through vermiculite
attics, fish wire and cut boxes into asbestos panel walls, or demo asbestos-cloth insulated wire.
I cant say ill turn down clean panel work, even if there is obvious asbestos in little brown wafers. I will have my p100 respirator on, and the
homeowner and my apprentice will hopefully take note and act accordingly.
Long winded tonight, sorry folks. As if this fireproof had lost me a wink of sleep when ive seen those needles suspended in basements and attics
like a eerie crystalline snow.
Terrible shit, the ‘bestos.
I reckon we can all agree porous clay is a much more reasonable substrate in 2025 for this catalyst eh?
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