Optimus Synthesis
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DiNitroNeoPentane?
DNNP - DiNitroNeoPentane
1,3-dinitro-2,2-dimethylpropane / 2,2-dimethyl-1,3-dinitropropane
CAS: 762-98-1
MW: 162.15
Hello everyone, this quest started with me looking for an energetic compound somewhat similar to TNT or DNT, but one that should be easy to make with
household materials and uncomplicated equipment, while also being stable and not particularly sensitive.
Furthermore, it would not matter if the oxygen balance is negative, just like TNT, nor would its energetic properties need to be outstanding, as its
intended use is as an additive for smokeless propellants to act as a "flame retardant" (in contrast to the main nitrocellulosic base).
Other requirements would be: it should not require harsh conditions during its manufacture, such as boiling hot nitrating mixtures that expel toxic
gases; if one can do it in the kitchen, that's a plus. Not needing somewhat hard-to-get chemicals like sulfuric acid or nitrates would also be
advantageous, but if there is no other way... Maybe I'm asking for too much? 
Searching for this unicorn, I came across one of the easiest-to-source nitro compounds: nitromethane (available worldwide as a mixture with methanol
and other substances for RC cars, planes, and the like). It happens to have the ability to condense with other compounds like aldehydes and ketones in
the well-known Henry reaction (widely used for the synthesis of phenylethylamine derivatives... but now put to good use ).
To summarize, since nitromethane is available as RC fuel and acetone is by far the lowest molecular weight compound from the aldehyde/ketone family
one can get easily anywhere... the end goal would be an addition compound leading to 1-nitroisobutylene with an alcohol intermediate. This energetic
would likely fall between MNT and DNT, so a bit "meh".
Luckily, this 1-nitroisobutylene can react further in two ways: with another acetone to make 4,4-dimethyl-5-nitro-2-pentanone (a nitroketone)... and
more interestingly, the same preceding 1-nitroisobutylene can react with another nitromethane moiety to make what would be my target compound:
1,3-dinitro-2,2-dimethylpropane, or what I would like to call DNNP or DiNitroNeoPentane, as it features a "neopentane" skeleton with two nitro groups
attached to it. This compound should have a power between DNT and TNT, not bad!
To make both of these reactions happen, one would need a basic catalyst. In the patent literature I've checked, they make use of secondary amines like
dimethylamine, diethylamine, piperidine, and other closely related amines that are difficult to obtain. Primary amines are also prescribed as long as
they do not boil too easily.
My approach would be the use of isopropylamine derived from Roundup herbicide (add a calculated amount of NaOH, isopropanol, and NaCl to a 36%
glyphosate isopropylamine salt, then separate the top layer containing isopropyl alcohol and isopropylamine). The ratios of the catalyst to the
substrates are given in the patent literature; 0,2 moles per mole of substrate should be fine.
Nitromethane, on its own, would be derived from RC fuel used as-is (it would contain methanol, mineral oils, or even castor oil... these should not
interfere too much, though the castor oil could potentially mess up a bit the basic catalyst, but it should not be a major problem).
The reaction should be carried out under pressure... I would try using mason jars with some PE liner to protect the lid and boiling water... or, if
needed, a usual "pipe bomb" made from a piece of double threaded steel tubing with two endcaps and PTFE tape (or a pressure vessel from aliexpress, a
modified CO2 capsule...).
For the workup, I would try either freeze-crashing the product, adding water to crash it out of solution, or boiling off the methanol. The resulting
impure mixture would be recrystallized to hopefully yield more or less pure DNNP.
Regarding the selectivity of these reactions, one can tune the proportions of nitromethane to acetone to favor the desired product. The referenced
patent gives yields of 44% DNNP and 15% nitroketone for a molar ratio of nitromethane to acetone of 1:1; it seems DNNP is favored, and increasing the
molar ratio of nitromethane to 2:1 would be the preferred way to optimize the yield.
Oh, the referenced patent is the application: US2343256A - PROCESS FOR THE CONDENSATION OF MONONITROALKANES AND ALIPHATIC KETONES.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2343256A/en
Are there any energetics like this to extrapolate their properties? In fact, yes. 2,3-dimethyl-2,3-dinitrobutane (DMDNB) is a closely related compound
used as a taggant for materials like plastic explosives. It is a solid with a melting point around 215ºC.
My questions for you folks are...
Does anybody have any kind of experience or knowledge on such condensations of non aromatic aldehydes/ketones? How viable could my approach be? Is the
nitromethane sold, for example, as 16% fuel by mass or by volume? (I think it's the latter... what a mess). Any other input or criticism? Regards
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Optimus Synthesis
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Just posting too the intended route of synthesis (US2343256A - PROCESS FOR THE CONDENSATION OF MONONITROALKANES AND ALIPHATIC KETONES.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2343256A/en).
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bnull
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| Quote: | | Any other input or criticism? |
What is your experience with that kind of stuff? Explosives, I mean.
When you write about the need to perform the reaction | Quote: | | under pressure (...) using mason jars with some PE liner to protect the lid and boiling water, |
you scare me
carpless. What if there's a runaway? You can see in Bretherick's many instances of aparently tame reactions that had been conducted without mishaps
for a long time until they simply went boom because of a contaminant that no one had thought about looking for, what slightly different conditions did
to the reactions, things that grow from traces to apreciable quantities on a scale-up and so on. Doing it in a mason jar is an invitation to disaster.
Also, no explosives in the kitchen. One doesn't eat in the lab and one doesn't do lab work in the kitchen (there as exceptions for this one, but
explosives is not one of them).
I suggest you take a look at the entry for nitromethane and the other stuff in Bretherick's Handbook of Reactive Chemical Hazards. There is an old
copy at Internet Archive.
And be wary of patents. They're simply a way to say "I did it first" like articles. They tend to leave important details out as a sort of trade secret
or proprietary information, sometimes as to be misleading.
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Optimus Synthesis
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| Quote: |
What is your experience with that kind of stuff? Explosives, I mean. |
Hello sir, would not like to reply that question.
| Quote: | When you write about the need to perform the reaction | Quote: | | under pressure (...) using mason jars with some PE liner to protect the lid and boiling water, |
you scare me
carpless. What if there's a runaway? You can see in Bretherick's many instances of aparently tame reactions that had been conducted without mishaps
for a long time until they simply went boom because of a contaminant that no one had thought about looking for, what slightly different conditions did
to the reactions, things that grow from traces to apreciable quantities on a scale-up and so on. Doing it in a mason jar is an invitation to disaster.
Also, no explosives in the kitchen. One doesn't eat in the lab and one doesn't do lab work in the kitchen (there as exceptions for this one, but
explosives is not one of them). |
There is a need to proceed with the reaction under pressure in order to speed things up. An option could be a mason jar inside a pot with a lid and
hot water, this means if the jar would shatter due to excessive pressure (a likely event, that's why other sturdier containers are suggested), it
would be protected not only by the pan, but by the boiling water that would quickly dunk reactants.
Reaction would happen over a large excess of methanol (from the RC fuel), a disastrous runaway is unlikely (even if possible during this particular
kind of reaction). Anyways I'd proceed with due caution.
Didn't told I would proceed in my kitchen, do most work at another room and I can use the outdoors for other procedures that require it too. Even the
pot wouldn't be one of the ones I use too cook my meals
| Quote: | I suggest you take a look at the entry for nitromethane and the other stuff in Bretherick's Handbook of Reactive Chemical Hazards. There is an old
copy at Internet Archive.
And be wary of patents. They're simply a way to say "I did it first" like articles. They tend to leave important details out as a sort of trade secret
or proprietary information, sometimes as to be misleading. |
Already know NM's dangers, as well that patents arent something that can be trusted most of the times. That's why I ask here first to SM gurus.
Regards.
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bnull
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Flu leaves me a little blorped and things don't usually turn out as intended. I'm not asking about professional or academic credentials, but if you
have or have not prepared and used energetic materials before. If you have, so what? Many people do. I did about two decades ago. If you don't have, a
reaction like this is not a good place to start. It's for your own safety. We don't want the Law in its various manifestations to screw up the forum
because you blew off your face.
You wrote "if one can do it in the kitchen, that's a plus." This is one of the things that shouldn't be said even as a joke because there are very
literal minded persons who will take it as a viable suggestion.
It won't hurt to check up Bretherick's.
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Axt
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I'm struggling to see why someone would take interest in making a burn rate modifier or "flame retardant" for smokeless powder in their kitchen. Seems
like an odd project, but I'm not judging. The product itself is unlikely to be detonatable through any normal means.
Remember that your amine catalyst will act to sensitise the nitromethane (ala PLX), especially if you are intending to use excess nitromethane to
drive the reaction towards that product. Although personally, I think you will end up with resinous orange crap if you heat model engine fuel, acetone
and a base and isolating an actual product will be your main drama.
Forget the glass, if it does become pressurised you will never know if it's a booby trap waiting to go the moment its disturbed. I remember back and
cringe myself when I threw a sealed soy sauce bottle of nitromethane and HCl into oil. There is pressurised glue dispensers on Ali that have space for
4 fittings (1/4" BSP thread) so you can monitor the pressure and add a safety relief valve.
I have 2 of them, the 500 mL first but was too small, so I got the 1 L for the equivalent of about $60US. The 1 L fits a 400 mL standard beaker and
here I have fitted with a thermometer.
 
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Optimus Synthesis
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Guys, let's go by parts:
1. On the kitchen polemic: It's just a figure of speech based on a friend's experience who made TNP in his kitchen like 20 years ago—not a
suggestion to fill your place with toxic nitrogen dioxide gas. When I say something can be made "even in a kitchen," I mean you don't need a fume hood
or to go outdoors. For example, to make proper TNT you'd need to heat that sulfonitric mixture real good to get the last NO2 group in, so that ain't
something you can make inside your house.
And NO, I don't do hard chemistry in my kitchen, mainly because I live in a rental and there's a real risk of ruining the expensive countertops... not
cool for my landlord. I have a room with some IKEA tables to get wasted with chemical stains. Good enough.
Personally, I don't care if you do chemistry-related stuff in your kitchen; you should be old enough to know what you're doing. Anyway, most amateur
chemists here will use their fridge for crystallizations for example, and I'm not going to tear my clothes in outrage over it because I do it myself
too—can't afford a dedicated fridge or don't have the space. Other people, like Chemplayer, made their chemistry videos in a spare kitchen; my
respects to them too. Not going to waste more time talking about this.
2. AxT: Thank you for your constructive reply. Yeah, I'm talking about a chemical intended as a burn rate modifier (quote-unquote a "flame retardant,"
so people not versed in smokeless powder manufacture get the idea).
As you already know, it's customary to add energetics like TNT, or even more often DNT, into smokeless powder formulas (or to coat the grains). So
that's why I'm looking for something available and "easy" to make to act as such, without the hassle of producing those aromatic nitro compounds.
While I can get access to a wide array of chemicals and equipment, many people can't; I'm thinking from a global perspective.
I think the principle for such deterrents is very simple: you add a poor energetic, like DNT for example, to make the powders burn slower than they
otherwise would. I could add another inert like vaseline, but I'd like it to be an energetic so it contributes more actively to the "gas buildup." If
you want to know why I'm looking for that: I have an array of single-base smokeless powders, fully colloidal, whose burn rate can be controlled
through porosity and grain size... but if I make the least porous ones, I'd like an option to slow them down even more using an additive like the
compound I described.
Thank you very much for your input on the AliExpress pressure vessels; your setup looks very good. IMHO, CO2 canisters hold some promise... Anyway,
right now I'm not able to find glyphosate isopropylamine salt, just pelargonic acid weed killers or, at best, glyphosate potassium salt... May need to
look into other amines... I already know the end result will most likely be resinous crap, but the path to success is paved with many failures.
[Edited on 30-11-2025 by Optimus Synthesis]
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j_sum1
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Mood: Just got through yet another "take this job and shove it" moment.
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It's what you don't know and what you don't think of that kills you.
I have not read every part of this thread, but I am reminded to revisit Yamato71's highly motivating thread, "Life after detonation"
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=22...
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Optimus Synthesis
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Hello friend. No matter what you read, you always learn something. I've been lurking on these forums for well over a decade, so I remember that thread
well. Regards.
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dettoo456
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Hello friend. No matter what you read, you always learn something. I've been lurking on these forums for well over a decade, so I remember that thread
well. Regards.[/rquote]
It sounds like the perfect EM you're looking for is ETN! Cheap and easily accessible from store bought precursors, low temp reaction, no pressure
required, and easy extraction and purification. If you want a challenge or just something 'novel', just nitrate some other weird sugar or polyhydric
alcohol with similar chilled mixed acid conditions.
Like others have mentioned, the polynitro alaphatic amines are not exactly powerful, probably will end up as an unseparable mix of liquid/tarry
different products and will be relatively expensive in the end.
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Axt
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He is after something that will colloid with nitrocellulose but act as a stable burn retardant, not accelerant. I wasn't going to ask why, but I'm
picturing either a cannon or a massively over bored cartridge (big case behind a tiny bullet) that required a slower than commercially available
propellant.
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dettoo456
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Ohh, alright. Maybe he could just try to dissolve as much GN and NC in MeOH as possible, then spray dry it onto a sheet of PTFE, scrape it off, then
use that? I dont know what else would work at this point besides just lowering the N-content and gelling the NC with triacetin if he wants a lower
burn rate.
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