Neil
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Canada's legislation
For all you Canadians out there... thought I'd pass this along.
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=834666
The government has apparently declared war on nitrates/chlorate's.
given how hard it is already, to get the chemicals on the list (ammonium nitrate; nitric acid; nitromethane; hydrogen peroxide; potassium nitrate;
sodium nitrate; potassium chlorate; sodium chlorate; and potassium perchlorate.) I wonder how hard it will be to do so in the future.
[Edited on 20-3-2008 by Neil]
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MagicJigPipe
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You see! I was flamed for suggesting that such mundane chemicals were likely to be regulated and hard to find in the future. But I would be an
asshole if I said, "I told you so".
Like I suggested before, I believe it is time to start stocking up on such things. Preferably with lifetime supplies.
"The new regulations will require that anyone who sells ammonium nitrate or any of the eight other chemicals be registered with the Explosives
Regulatory Division of Natural Resources Canada (NRCan) and comply with security measures for storage, record keeping and customer identification."
Bring it on you tyrannical bitches!
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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len1
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How about the equally common magnesium nitrate and calcium nitrate, or do they think theres something particular to first collumn element nitrates
that only they can be precursors? Maybe they are reserving this for the second round of regulations. How about NH3 fertilizers, they can also be
oxidized to nitrates - that maybe for the third round. Then theres urea that can be turned into NH3 - so the logical conclusion is that urine will
become a controlled substance.
Sounds once again a case of the ignorant trying to protect us. This does not bode well for the success of their stated aims, they will succeed
however in introducing yet another level of government regulation and tax on the end user. Given another centuries worth of legislation we should
arrive at big brother.
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MagicJigPipe
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Or if regulation increases exponentially big brother will arrive much sooner.
I was shocked to find out a few years ago that, in the UK, they have video cameras on sidewalks, streets and random public places! It's almost like
they were specifically looking for ideas in the book 1984!
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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undead_alchemist
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I looked over the regs.
The other 8 chemicals have threshold limits.
So for many it should not effect things.
Just good storage, and keep them locked up.
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Nicodem
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There already was a thread on the situation on Canada:
http://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=7179
Perhaps I'm going to merge them after a while unless there is objection.
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The_Davster
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Fucktards...
htt p://canadagazette.gc.ca/partII/2008/20080319/html/sor47-e.html
"The Toronto area terrorist plot to use ammonium nitrate (AN) to build bombs, which was foiled in early June of 2006, is a strong indication that
regulatory controls are urgently needed to ensure that restricted components are protected from future acquisition attempts for terrorist and criminal
use."
The media debunked this recently in Canada, it seems it was all talk and no substance. I am not sure they were even ever prosecuted. Unfortunately I
cannot find a reference as all google links go back to the fearmongering in 2006.
undead_alchemist, where did you find the threshold limits? I only noticed that threshold limits were suggested.
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chloric1
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| Quote: | Originally posted by The_Davster
Fucktards...
htt p://canadagazette.gc.ca/partII/2008/20080319/html/sor47-e.html
"The Toronto area terrorist plot to use ammonium nitrate (AN) to build bombs, which was foiled in early June of 2006, is a strong indication that
regulatory controls are urgently needed to ensure that restricted components are protected from future acquisition attempts for terrorist and criminal
use."
The media debunked this recently in Canada, it seems it was all talk and no substance. I am not sure they were even ever prosecuted. Unfortunately I
cannot find a reference as all google links go back to the fearmongering in 2006.
undead_alchemist, where did you find the threshold limits? I only noticed that threshold limits were suggested. |
Dave I would gamble it was a government operative who staged the threat. Another example of government sponsored terrorism to tighten the security
noose around the throats of the common citizen.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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Neil
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Opps did not know that.
On the note of our wonderful government.. any governments who's first order of duty is to drive out the science advisor then erase the position...
well...
I'm trying to stock up now. unfortunately on the manufactures side, many of those chemicals have already vanished from stores. stump remover,
saltpeter in drug stores, urea snow melter and pure nitrate fertilizers have all mysteriously been discontinued by the manufactures here...
If you venture out into the more remote towns; in the hard ware stores and the drug stores you can still find remaining stocks of nitrate... pet
stores for pet safe salt melter for the urea... never to be re-stocked sadly
*crosses fingers and hopes for the best*
Edit: ...this fits right into that other thread...
[Edited on 21-3-2008 by Neil]
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JohnWW
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I understand that Canada got a Fa$cist Federal Prime Minister recently - Harper, who is in the pocket of and most anxious to imitate and appease Bu$h.
So that sort of thing is not surprising from him.
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MagicJigPipe
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JohnWW, I'm $orry but thi$ $hit i$ really annoying.
I'm sure there are other ways you could express your contempt for the United States and it's currency.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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microcosmicus
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Banning of chemicals can be contagious and spread from one
country to another. In the thread which is to be merged with
this one, Woelen described how a few years ago, there was a
banning of all sorts of chemicals from consumer products in
Europe. That is now spreading to the United States. This
evening, I watched an episode of Now called Toxic Toys:
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/412/index.html
The topic of this show was phthalates used as additives to PVC
plastic used in toys. There was a parade of angry consumer
advocates demanding that the U.S. not fall behind the rest of
the world in banning these horrible chemicals. As usual, there
was no mention of what doses are toxic, exposure limits,
how much of the phthalates leach out of the plastic.
As a result of their efforts, phthalates are already banned in
San Francisco, the ban is scheduled to go in effect statewide
in California as well as other states, and is being introduced
and national legislation is being introduced. What annoys
me about this is that the push by advocates for banning rather
than labeling --- I would have no complaints if what they
instead clamored for were laws demanding that products
containing phthalates would have to say "contains phthatlates"
so that people who are concerned about the effects of
these chemicals could choose not to purchase such
products rather than demanding that the government
remove the possibility of making such a choice! The
combination of these sorts of advocates with big
government politiciansis as dangerous as the combination
of H2SO4 with KMnO4.
At one point in the show, one of the advocates complained
how, because the U.S. was falling behind in science,
nobody is inventing safer chemicals to substitute for the
nasty ones. To me this sounded like trying to eat the
cake and have it too --- if one calculates how advanced
a nation is by how many chemicals it bans, by that
definition an advanced country is going to be particularly
deficient in basement inventors and not many of its
children are going to play around with chemical sets
and dream of becoming scientists when they grow up.
Therefore, I consider it likely that the ban on NO3-
may crosses the border into the U.S and make its way
to the rest of the English-speaking world, even beyond.
Granted that the dynamics are different, involving
security issues rather than consumer issues (but note
the Firefox case), it seems that the principle of
demanding that a chemical be banned because it
is banned in another country would work in this
context as well.
By the way, where I happen to be here in the U.S. nitrates
are not easily found. Since it is an urban area. there
is no local feed store with fertilizers. The pottery store
no longer has KNO3 or any other M(NO3)n --- in fact,
given how they have way more premixed glazes than
raw chemicals and discontinued cobalt compounds the
last time I was there, I wonder whether pottery chemicals
are going to be around too much longer.
Fortunately, I can still find urea in the art store by the cloth
dyeing section, but there is still the same worry hanging
over that source --- the dye section of the art store seems
not too popular with many old, dusty dye bottles so it looks
like this sourc may also fade away.
[Edited on 22-3-2008 by microcosmicus]
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MagicJigPipe
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The only readily available source of nitrates in my area (southern US) is potassium nitrate (saltpeter) from drug stores (rare) and ammonium nitrate
from instant cold packs. Remember when I posted the "Chemicals to Stock Up On" thread and mentioned that my local paper called for the banning of
ammonium nitrate all together (taking even cold packs off the shelves)? I was greeted with "that's not likely" and "you're paranoid". Well, my
friends, now we shall see.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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chloric1
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Before long we are going to have to set up "crap shacks" becuase the source of our nitrates will be our own poo and piss. De Re Metallica by Agricola
goes into great detail on this subject.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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Neil
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
The only readily available source of nitrates in my area (southern US) is potassium nitrate (saltpeter) from drug stores (rare) and ammonium nitrate
from instant cold packs. Remember when I posted the "Chemicals to Stock Up On" thread and mentioned that my local paper called for the banning of
ammonium nitrate all together (taking even cold packs off the shelves)? I was greeted with "that's not likely" and "you're paranoid". Well, my
friends, now we shall see. |
Cold packs have long been removed from our shelves... when I need amonium nitrate, I'm reduced to picking it out of fertilizer...
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microcosmicus
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| Quote: |
Before long we are going to have to set up "crap shacks"
becuase the source of our nitrates will be our own poo and piss.
De Re Metallica by Agricola goes into great detail on this subject.
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Or, for the more technically advanced of us, lab-scale versions of
industrial processes for the fixation of nitrogen,. Already some
people here have had success with this. As long as ammonia
water remains available as a cleaning fluid, one can oxidize
it over a copper catalyst to produce NO2. In the worst possible
case, there is always atmospheric nitrogen which can be
fixed by electric discharge (a process I have on my to-do list,
originally for curiosity, but now perhaps assuming a more
practical role). Just as now Xenoid and others here have perfected
techniques for producing chlorates and perchlorates, so too
perhaps the next big project will be home manufacture of nitrates.
I suppose the upshot of excessive regulation of chemicals is
turning the few remaining home chemists into total synthesis
freaks  The downside of this, of course, is that, not only is
it tedious and time consuming to prepare all or most of one's
chemicals, it requires considerable chemical sophistication.
While the more experienced may learn to adapt, this makes it
considerably harder for newbies to start a chemistry hobby.
[Edited on 22-3-2008 by microcosmicus]
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franklyn
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As if you didn't already know
http://southwestfarmpress.com/news/05-17-06-ammonium-hot-pot...
http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/attachments/cart-6k3vxv...
.
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merlic79
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Many OTC chemicals being removed in Canada:(
Hey there, just to let you Canadian members know that within the last month the government, in its infinite wisdom, has pulled or otherwise made it
stupidly difficult to obtain some nice OTC chemicals. These chemicals include sulfuric acid (drain opener) at the Homedepot, Rona, and Home Hardware.
30% H2O2 and KNO3
has been pulled off hydrostore shelves. The acid drain openers have been replaced by "natural" enzyme based ones (useless).
I guess they'll ban water next, as it is a KEY precursor to explosives (you need water to make nitric and sulfuric acids) and drugs
(crack/cocaine,opium/heroin, and marijuana/hashish)-all these drugs are derived from plants which need water to grow.
How stupid
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Sauron
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The Great Nanny of the North lives.
Let's all sing Maple Leaf Forever.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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merlic79
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Thank you Sauron. Lol.:
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