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-jeffB
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[*] posted on 30-3-2008 at 19:44


Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
I once heard a Texas Ranger accuse someone of making "crystal methane"

I remember thinking, this guy needs some remedial narc classes.


You're only saying that because you haven't lost a child to the clathrate scourge. :P
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anotheronebitesthedust
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[*] posted on 2-4-2008 at 21:03


Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
Anyone caught buying a list 1 chemical deserves exactly what they get. Good post.
Joe

Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
It might even be a sting operation for all I know - but no one has proven it.
Joe

Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
anotheronebitesthedust,
I think you're a LEO but I could be wrong.
Joe


http://www.krqe.com/Global/story.asp?S=8063943
Looks like you were supporting a DEA sting operation.
Weird.
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[*] posted on 2-4-2008 at 21:40


Quote:
Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
http://www.krqe.com/Global/story.asp?S=8063943


That story doesn't say that TCC was the site involved, it just mentioned a sting website, without any names. There could certainly be other sites than TCC (and the IP address related to TCC was Arizona, not ABQ New Mexico), the only reason I ever heard of TCC was because of posts on this board.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 02:11


"A Rio Rancho police officer met with a detective from the Westside Narcotics Unit on Feb. 27. The detective told the officer that he was working an Internet investigation with the Phoenix, Ariz. DEA that uses an undercover Web site, which has the appearance of being located overseas, to identify people attempting to order precursor chemicals for clandestine labs and/or explosives.

A DEA agent told the detective on Feb. 8 that a man identified as “Kevin Kirkwood” had ordered 500 grams of ephedrine hydrochloride. Kirkwood paid 153.51 British Pounds for the ephedrine and gave a delivery address at a mailbox store in the 1300 block of Rio Rancho Boulevard. Kirkwood also inquired via email about methylamine hydrochloride 40 percent and hydriodic acid, however, he did not order those items. The Westside detective then determined through police records that Kirkwood was really Vincent Barclay.

On Feb. 27, the DEA agent gave the Westside detective 500 grams of ephedrine for the purpose of making a controlled delivery at the mailbox store. With the assistance of a postal inspector, the ephedrine was packaged for delivery."

So what was the going price for 500 g. ephedrine at TCC in early February?

[Edited on 3-4-2008 by S.C. Wack]




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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 06:07


I got an e-mail from TCC, to one of my e-mail accounts. Which puzzled me a lot, since I've never shopped there or any other place remotely similar/connected. I sent an e-mail, asking where they found my e-mail address, but never got a reply. Kind of disturbing considering this discussion...

[Edited on 08-4-3 by NeonCortex]




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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 06:17


Quote:
Originally posted by S.C. Wack
an undercover Web site, which has the appearance of being located overseas


The police report PDF re Jeff Scheidemantel had the police laying into him for illegally importing RP. If TCC is not actually in the UK (and the available IP evidence suggests that there is nothing UK about them) then how does ordering from TCC constitute importing?

It would be an interesting experiment to order NaCl from them and see if a) the package arrives, and b) if it really came from the UK.

I, personally, am way too chicken to do this.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 07:53


Assuming that SWIM were to order a watched chemical from TCC
and assuming, again hypothetically, that TCC were, in fact, a sting
operation located in the U.S. and not a U.K. company, SWIM
might be prosecuted and convicted of attempt to import a
controlled substance. The basis for this charge would be that
SWIM believed that the supplier was located abroad, whether or
not it actually was. As precedent for this sort of thing, consider a
case in Kansas (upheld by the appeals court) where a swimmer was
convicted of attempting to extract l-meth from an inhaler even though
the particular inhaler used happened not to contain l-meth; all that was
necessary for the conviction was to show that the would-be cook
thought he was obtaining l-meth even though he had mistakenly
bought the wrong brand and therefore could not have done so.

Overall, I get the impression that nowadays many drug convictions are for
attempt and conspiracy charges rather than for actually manufacturing
controlled substances. Along these lines, I also once saw an article in
Microgram about what would happen if some stupid cook would try
the I/P reaction with the wrong cold pills which do not contain ephedrine
and how to detect the results --- presumably useful for obtaining more
convictions along the lines of the Kansas case mentioned above.
Somehow, I am getting the feeling that, as the restrictions on
ephedrine are putting cooks out of business but drug enforcement
agencies are anxious to stay in business and keep on making drug
busts to avoid having their budgets reduced , they are turning to these
iffier areas of attempt and conspiracy. Buyng into the meth scare, the
courts are willing to put aside such niceties as the Constitution, not to
mention such frivolities as laws about unsolicited e-mails, in order to
give the police their convictions and appear hard on drugs much as
their predecessors in the McCarthy era did in order not to appear soft
on communism or their predecessors in colonial Salem did in order
not to appear soft on witchcraft.



[Edited on 3-4-2008 by microcosmicus]
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 13:21


Quote:
Originally posted by pantone159
Quote:
Originally posted by S.C. Wack
an undercover Web site, which has the appearance of being located overseas


The police report PDF re Jeff Scheidemantel had the police laying into him for illegally importing RP. If TCC is not actually in the UK (and the available IP evidence suggests that there is nothing UK about them) then how does ordering from TCC constitute importing?

It would be an interesting experiment to order NaCl from them and see if a) the package arrives, and b) if it really came from the UK.

I, personally, am way too chicken to do this.


http://whois.domaintools.com/thechemicalcloset.com
Whois Record
Registrant:
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom

Domain Name: THECHEMICALCLOSET.COM
Created on: 29-Jun-07
Expires on: 29-Jun-08
Last Updated on: 29-Jun-07

Administrative Contact:
Porter, James
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom
447742129481 Fax --

Technical Contact:
Porter, James
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom
447742129481 Fax --

Domain servers in listed order:
NS57.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
NS58.DOMAINCONTROL.COM

They registered through GoDaddy.com which is located at:

14455 N. Hayden Rd.
Suite 219
Scottsdale, AZ 85260

I'm not so sure that TCC isn't based in the UK.

Joe

[Edited on 3-4-2008 by joeflsts]
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 14:09


Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
I'm not so sure that TCC isn't based in the UK.


Arguments against this:

1) X-Originating-IP: 148.167.148.100
from the email header than anotheronebitesthedust finally posted, that is indeed City of Phoenix AZ.
The supposed comment from TCC that they do not provide tracking information is also fishy.

2) The police report PDF for the Scheidelmantel case specifically mentioned TCC. It is true that the cops got info about buyers from KNO3, which was genuinely UK based and also not a sting (albeit somewhere which was under surveillance), however in the Scheidelmantel case, the initial package was carried to his door by the postal inspector involved in the investigation, that kind of immediate action seems hard to manage if the vendor was indeed really shipping something from the UK, although this would not be impossible. If TCC were really a UK operation, I would expect that the package would arrive first, and the police some time later after somehow discovering the transaction.

3) The S.C. Wack 'quote' (although without any link) is consistent with TCC, although no name is explicitly used.

I am not *completely* convinced myself, hence the suggestion for an experiment. :) I am more than enough convinced that I wouldn't touch TCC with a 10 parsec long pole, but that was the case the moment I looked at their site anyways.

[Edited on 3-4-2008 by pantone159]
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microcosmicus
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 14:44


Quote:

, the initial package was carried to his door by the postal inspector involved in the investigation, that kind of
immediate action seems hard to manage if the vendor was indeed really shipping something from the UK,
although this would not be impossible


From what I understand, this would not be at all hard for the authorities to manage. As I mentioned in
another discussion on this topic, the DEA is likely keeping an eye on websites like TCC whether or not
they are sting operations and noting when someone in the U.S. places an order there. Even without the
expanded powers to snoop on e-mail granted by the Patriot act, the DEA might simply have handed the
USPS a list of addresses such as that of TCC which are somehow connected to drug trade and asked to
be notified whenever the post office receives a package from one of those addresses so that they could
intercept it to check for contraband. Either way, it would be easy enough for the police to discover the
transaction before the package arrives. I have also heard similar stories about how people had packages
of cannabis sent to them from the Netherlands only to have those packages be intercepted in transit and
be arrested when the postal inspector delivered them. Thus, I don't see that this fact says much for whether
TCC is a sting or a sleaze.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 14:49


Quote:
Originally posted by pantone159
Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
I'm not so sure that TCC isn't based in the UK.


Arguments against this:

1) X-Originating-IP: 148.167.148.100
from the email header than anotheronebitesthedust finally posted, that is indeed City of Phoenix AZ.
The supposed comment from TCC that they do not provide tracking information is also fishy.

2) The police report PDF for the Scheidelmantel case specifically mentioned TCC. It is true that the cops got info about buyers from KNO3, which was genuinely UK based and also not a sting (albeit somewhere which was under surveillance), however in the Scheidelmantel case, the initial package was carried to his door by the postal inspector involved in the investigation, that kind of immediate action seems hard to manage if the vendor was indeed really shipping something from the UK, although this would not be impossible. If TCC were really a UK operation, I would expect that the package would arrive first, and the police some time later after somehow discovering the transaction.

3) The S.C. Wack 'quote' (although without any link) is consistent with TCC, although no name is explicitly used.

I am not *completely* convinced myself, hence the suggestion for an experiment. :) I am more than enough convinced that I wouldn't touch TCC with a 10 parsec long pole, but that was the case the moment I looked at their site anyways.

[Edited on 3-4-2008 by pantone159][/quote

I don't believe anotheronebitesthedust.

Joe
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 14:52


Quote:
Originally posted by microcosmicus
Quote:

, the initial package was carried to his door by the postal inspector involved in the investigation, that kind of
immediate action seems hard to manage if the vendor was indeed really shipping something from the UK,
although this would not be impossible


From what I understand, this would not be at all hard for the authorities to manage. As I mentioned in
another discussion on this topic, the DEA is likely keeping an eye on websites like TCC whether or not
they are sting operations and noting when someone in the U.S. places an order there. Even without the
expanded powers to snoop on e-mail granted by the Patriot act, the DEA might simply have handed the
USPS a list of addresses such as that of TCC which are somehow connected to drug trade and asked to
be notified whenever the post office receives a package from one of those addresses so that they could
intercept it to check for contraband. Either way, it would be easy enough for the police to discover the
transaction before the package arrives. I have also heard similar stories about how people had packages
of cannabis sent to them from the Netherlands only to have those packages be intercepted in transit and
be arrested when the postal inspector delivered them. Thus, I don't see that this fact says much for whether
TCC is a sting or a sleaze.


I think this post makes a hell of a lot of sense. It is possible that TCC is a sting - I doubt it but then again I could be wrong.

Joe
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 16:34


Fact: Howes and Shanks are arrested and jailed for selling listed chemicals to the USA. They still face extradition and being made an example of.

Common sense: Given this fact, who would fill their shoes - if not sell even more listed chemicals for methamphetamine manufacture and less unlisted ones to the USA? Now the quote that I posted could merely be media-assisted LE disinformation, but anyone with any sense at all can see that there is a problem with TCC.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 16:39


Quote:
Originally posted by microcosmicus
Somehow, I am getting the feeling that, as the restrictions on
ephedrine are putting cooks out of business but drug enforcement agencies are anxious to stay in business and keep on making drug busts to avoid having their budgets reduced , they are turning to these iffier areas of attempt and conspiracy.

This is what is happening.
Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
http://whois.domaintools.com/thechemicalcloset.com
Whois Record
Registrant:
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom

Anyone who has registered a website would know that you can type in a false name and address. The only way to find out who actually registered the site name "thechemicalcloset.com" would be to find the credit card records of who paid for the registration. And there's even ways to keep that anonymous.
Quote:
Originally posted by microcosmicus
Either way, it would be easy enough for the police to discover the transaction before the package arrives. I have also heard similar stories about how people had packages
of cannabis sent to them from the Netherlands only to have those packages be intercepted in transit and be arrested when the postal inspector delivered them.

That is the job description of Customs agents --- to find and seize illegal substance sent through the postal or courier services. If law enforcement agents feel that it is worth their time, they will perform a controlled delivery. With TCC, the DEA officially cut out the uncertainty and randomness of finding and seizing the packages through Customs.

I won all my Paypal complaints against TCC. On the last one they decided to appeal the decision. Here's a picture I took:
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 16:50


Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
I don't believe anotheronebitesthedust.

Joe


Understood. Indeed, anotheronebitesthedust has made allegations against Science Lab (I think) that were later retracted and admitted to have no basis. Plus, he has acted like a jerk. :)

OTOH, he *did* eventually post email headers from his messages and nobody else has. I do wish any who have received spam from TCC would post headers from those messages.

I really can't believe TCC is for real. The KNO3 owners are imprisoned, and to me, TCC is waaay more blatant a drug chem supplier than KNO3 was.

I still think an experiment would be interesting but no way am I performing that one myself.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 16:55


Quote:
Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
Quote:
Originally posted by microcosmicus
Somehow, I am getting the feeling that, as the restrictions on
ephedrine are putting cooks out of business but drug enforcement agencies are anxious to stay in business and keep on making drug busts to avoid having their budgets reduced , they are turning to these iffier areas of attempt and conspiracy.

This is what is happening.
Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
http://whois.domaintools.com/thechemicalcloset.com
Whois Record
Registrant:
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom

Anyone who has registered a website would know that you can type in a false name and address. The only way to find out who actually registered the site name "thechemicalcloset.com" would be to find the credit card records of who paid for the registration. And there's even ways to keep that anonymous.
Quote:
Originally posted by microcosmicus
Either way, it would be easy enough for the police to discover the transaction before the package arrives. I have also heard similar stories about how people had packages
of cannabis sent to them from the Netherlands only to have those packages be intercepted in transit and be arrested when the postal inspector delivered them.

That is the job description of Customs agents --- to find and seize illegal substance sent through the postal or courier services. If law enforcement agents feel that it is worth their time, they will perform a controlled delivery. With TCC, the DEA officially cut out the uncertainty and randomness of finding and seizing the packages through Customs.

I won all my Paypal complaints against TCC. On the last one they decided to appeal the decision. Here's a picture I took:


I am glad that you won.. why did you buy from TCC if you felt they were a sting?

Anyone could alter an email header to say whatever they wanted it to say.

Joe

[Edited on 4-4-2008 by joeflsts]
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 17:02


According to this:
http://whois.domaintools.com/thechemicalcloset.com
The site is hosted on a dedicated server.

According to this:
http://www.selfseo.com/find_ip_address_of_a_website.php
The IP for this server thechemicalcloset.com is 72.167.11.220.

This is a server in the US, in AZ. (It is GoDaddy.)

Would a UK operation selling stuff that is clearly problematic in the USA really have a dedicated server located in Arizona? Of course the server does not have to physically be where the store is, but that operation seems like a case where you would be picky about this.
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anotheronebitesthedust
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 17:13


Quote:
Originally posted by pantone159
Indeed, anotheronebitesthedust has made allegations against Science Lab (I think) that were later retracted and admitted to have no basis.
That statement has no basis. Prove it. Post these so called "allegations".

Quote:
Originally posted by pantone159
I still think an experiment would be interesting but no way am I performing that one myself.
I've done three "experiments" with TCC so far. They were enough to convince me.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 17:21


Quote:
Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
Quote:
Originally posted by pantone159
Indeed, anotheronebitesthedust has made allegations against Science Lab (I think) that were later retracted and admitted to have no basis.
That statement has no basis. Prove it. Post these so called "allegations".


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9708&a...

Quote:
Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
I just saw the two names together at that site. I didn't do any research and shouldn't have jumped to a conclusion.


EDIT: A more relevant post:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9686&a...

Quote:
Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
Sciencelab = Science Alliance

http://www.chemindustry.com/apps/search?category_id=11&s...


I am not (at all) trying to call you a liar, I am just trying to carefully qualify all the sources regarding the TCC question.


[Edited on 3-4-2008 by pantone159]

[Edited on 3-4-2008 by pantone159]
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 18:17


Quote:
Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust

Anyone who has registered a website would know that you can type in a false name and address. The only way to find out who actually registered the site name "thechemicalcloset.com" would be to find the credit card records of who paid for the registration. And there's even ways to keep that anonymous.


And if TCC is indeed a DEA sting, surely they have contacts in the UK who could help them provide UK addresses/contacts/etc.

So I am personally not convinced at all that the supposed UK registration is legit.
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 18:52


What did you order Freddy Mercury? Was it something like NaCl or methylamine? For instance if it were NaCl we could pretty much be sure it's a sting as there should be no reason customs would stop that unless they are looking through everything from TCC.

Notice that their ephedrine now says, "Cannot ship to the US" but their phenylpropanolamine (just as restricted in the US) doesn't. In fact, it now says "Phenylpropanolamine Hydrochloride (New Lower Price)".

It's almost as if they caught on that people were getting wary (or aware) of the ephedrine and are trying to promote phenylpropanolamine instead.

They now have phenylacetonitrile (benzyl cyanide) as well. That's a pretty damn toxic chemical to be shipping around. To me that, and the fact that they didn't even bother to take a picture of real KMnO4, tells me that they don't really have the chemicals anyway.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 19:14


Quote:
Originally posted by pantone159
According to this:
http://whois.domaintools.com/thechemicalcloset.com
The site is hosted on a dedicated server.

According to this:
http://www.selfseo.com/find_ip_address_of_a_website.php
The IP for this server thechemicalcloset.com is 72.167.11.220.

This is a server in the US, in AZ. (It is GoDaddy.)

Would a UK operation selling stuff that is clearly problematic in the USA really have a dedicated server located in Arizona? Of course the server does not have to physically be where the store is, but that operation seems like a case where you would be picky about this.


GoDaddy, IpowerWeb, Network Solutions, etc. all sell services to companies all over the world.

There are some on this forum that jump to conclusions. I could care less if TCC is a sting operation or not - I won't be buying from them.

Thanks for your research.

Joe
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 19:25


Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
They now have phenylacetonitrile (benzyl cyanide) as well. That's a pretty damn toxic chemical to be shipping around.


How bad is PhCN, really? (I have never worked with it so I don't know first hand.)

This
http://chemicalland21.com/specialtychem/finechem/PHENYLACETO...
says its NFPA Health hazard rating is only 2, although this
http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/BE/benzyl_cyanide.html
says it may be fatal if inhaled.

I suppose that TCC is trying to complete the set of List I chemicals in their 'inventory'. Is ergotamine tartarate next???
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[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 20:33


It's BnCN. PhCN is benzonitrile (no methyl group seperating the Ph and nitrile group). A benzyl group is basically toluene.

Anyway, I believe it's extremely irritating and toxic. IMO it's the most harmful substance on their site aside from NH3.

Quote:
I suppose that TCC is trying to complete the set of List I chemicals in their 'inventory'. Is ergotamine tartarate next???


It does seem that way doesn't it? I'm not sure if they had it before but now they have phenylacetic acid as well. This is so completely rediculous. Like you said, it's like they got their stock from the US list 1 and 2 chemical lists. Obviously, their main focus is amphetamines which is why they don't seem to have anything else like ergotamine.

What I think would complete their inventory is (MD-)P2P. Well, they already have safrole, so...

EDIT
500g of KMnO4 technical grade for 26 pounds???!!! Oh my god that is horribly expensive! That's like 50 bucks!

[Edited on 3-4-2008 by MagicJigPipe]




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[*] posted on 4-4-2008 at 14:55
The Chemical Closet


I think what is happening is that some people are on the radar for whatever reason and their mail is being watched by big brother. Or, perhaps some of the orders are not clearing customs.

My order arrived with a U.K. customs label that was declared as "Hobby Supplies"

The R P I ordered came in a can with a sack inside, not the bottle listed on the website. Nevertheless, it did arrive and without unwanted visitors.

Attached is a photo
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