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D4RR3N
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Ionisation to cool gas jet
Can ionisation of a gas be used to reduce its temperature? Attached is a quick sketch, compressed gas flows over a grid which is attached to a high
voltage source. Electrons are ripped from the gas molecules as it flows over the grid before exiting the nozzle. If removing electrons from an atom
thus forming an ion reduces the energy state of that atom will this reduced energy state result in a lowered temperature?
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not_important
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If ionising something removed energy from it, wouldn't molecules tend to spontaneously ionise unless there was a large barrier to get over? If an
ion was at a lower energy than the neutral compound, why would it ever recombine with an electron?
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sakshaug007
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Yeah I don't believe this would cool the gas in fact if anything you might create a plasma which as you know exhibits temperatures that rival that
produced by the sun. In inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometers, Argon gas is ionized from a nozzle using an RF source which create a plasma of
approximately 10000K. This is due to the bombardment of free electrons in the plasma with argon ions as well as argon atoms which then get ionized and
causes a self sustaining reaction (as long as argon gas is sourced). So short answer I believe your technique would result in heating the gas
(possibly plasma) rather than cooling it.
Hope this is helpful.
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Sedit
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I remember something veagly discribed by tesla that may be worth looking into deaper for you. What he stated had to do with polarization of ionized
air molecules causing them to form chains comming from the source of the ionizer. This caused the airs density to (raise/lower?) which cooled the air.
As I said Its been a while since Iv read this but he talks about it more indepth in a paper he wrote about an experimental flying machine and was
discussing how the colun omf air below the machine would cool the air from the ions flowing from its surface.
In my personal work with Tesla coils and other forms of HV plasma in air I have noticed many times the air has cool dramaticly but I never thought to
attempt a measure of the temperature loss. Your design seems pretty easy to test and is along the lines of something I would design to test a
temperature change. One thing you would have to take into consideration with your design is that the air flowing out of the nozzle will cool
regardless if the gas has been compressed. As it expanded out of the nozzle it will lose energy and cool. You will need both the feed and the exit to
be at the same pressure to get any kind of accurate reading as to whether the temperature chages when the ionization starts.
[Edited on 6-4-2009 by Sedit]
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
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D4RR3N
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My thought is simply this, if you remove electrons from a gas you are removing energy after all electrons are energy and the result must be a lower
energy state.
Conversely if you add electrons to an atom you are adding energy (electrons) so the result must be a higher energy state.
I was thinking therefore that positively ionising a gas may cool it whilst negatively ionising a gas may heat it.
I was thinking of an ioniser rather then a device with surficent electrical energy to generate a plasma.
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D4RR3N
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Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  | I remember something veagly discribed by tesla that may be worth looking into deaper for you. What he stated had to do with polarization of ionized
air molecules causing them to form chains comming from the source of the ionizer. This caused the airs density to (raise/lower?) which cooled the air.
As I said Its been a while since Iv read this but he talks about it more indepth in a paper he wrote about an experimental flying machine and was
discussing how the colun omf air below the machine would cool the air from the ions flowing from its surface.
In my personal work with Tesla coils and other forms of HV plasma in air I have noticed many times the air has cool dramaticly but I never thought to
attempt a measure of the temperature loss. Your design seems pretty easy to test and is along the lines of something I would design to test a
temperature change. One thing you would have to take into consideration with your design is that the air flowing out of the nozzle will cool
regardless if the gas has been compressed. As it expanded out of the nozzle it will lose energy and cool. You will need both the feed and the exit to
be at the same pressure to get any kind of accurate reading as to whether the temperature chages when the ionization starts.
[Edited on 6-4-2009 by Sedit] |
Sounds very interesting, I would like to read more about this Tesla device. Do you know the name of the paper?
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sakshaug007
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| Quote: Originally posted by D4RR3N | My thought is simply this, if you remove electrons from a gas you are removing energy after all electrons are energy and the result must be a lower
energy state.
Conversely if you add electrons to an atom you are adding energy (electrons) so the result must be a higher energy state.
I was thinking therefore that positively ionising a gas may cool it whilst negatively ionising a gas may heat it.
I was thinking of an ioniser rather then a device with surficent electrical energy to generate a plasma.
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Sorry but this is not true, because if so, all matter would seek the lowest energy state which would simply be the nucleus of an atom in this case.
Everything would disintegrate into a sea of particles (protons and neutrons)! You forgot about the potential energy stored in chemical bonds that
prevents this from happening as well as the electromagnetic force that exists between protons and orbiting electrons. If an atom/molecule has less
electrons than protons it is positively charged and wants to acquire electrons in order to be stable, conversely if it has more electrons that protons
its negatively charged and will want to give up electrons to be stable.
Also, remember that it always takes energy in some form or another to ionize a species.
[Edited on 6-4-2009 by sakshaug007]
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Sedit
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@D4RR
Ill see if I can Find the text its in PDF format somewhere here on my computer but its been like 10 years since Iv accessed it so it may take some
time to find what I did with it when moving from one computer to another. A quick web seach turned up first link the same think but it was nothing
more then a quote from the PDF that I have. Try searching Google and if you turn up nothing Ill start digging thru my Zip files to see if I can find
it.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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D4RR3N
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | @D4RR
Ill see if I can Find the text its in PDF format somewhere here on my computer but its been like 10 years since Iv accessed it so it may take some
time to find what I did with it when moving from one computer to another. A quick web seach turned up first link the same think but it was nothing
more then a quote from the PDF that I have. Try searching Google and if you turn up nothing Ill start digging thru my Zip files to see if I can find
it. |
I searched and read all I could on Teslas flying machine and I did not find anything quoting him saying ionisation can minipulate air density or
temprature. This address contains all known quotes tesla made with regards to how his flying machine functions.
http://www.frank.germano.com/flying_machine.htm
His device obviously used gyroscopic stabilisation so I'm guessing the heart of his machine was his Tesla turbine somehow adapted to produce a jet
engine, he talks about powerful jets of air that can be directed in any direction. He also says his device can move in any direction.
My thoughts ate a circular craft with a central downward jet providing lift and a movable jet providing change in direction.
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D4RR3N
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| Quote: Originally posted by sakshaug007 | | Quote: Originally posted by D4RR3N | My thought is simply this, if you remove electrons from a gas you are removing energy after all electrons are energy and the result must be a lower
energy state.
Conversely if you add electrons to an atom you are adding energy (electrons) so the result must be a higher energy state.
I was thinking therefore that positively ionising a gas may cool it whilst negatively ionising a gas may heat it.
I was thinking of an ioniser rather then a device with surficent electrical energy to generate a plasma.
|
Sorry but this is not true, because if so, all matter would seek the lowest energy state which would simply be the nucleus of an atom in this case.
Everything would disintegrate into a sea of particles (protons and neutrons)! You forgot about the potential energy stored in chemical bonds that
prevents this from happening as well as the electromagnetic force that exists between protons and orbiting electrons. If an atom/molecule has less
electrons than protons it is positively charged and wants to acquire electrons in order to be stable, conversely if it has more electrons that protons
its negatively charged and will want to give up electrons to be stable.
Also, remember that it always takes energy in some form or another to ionize a species.
[Edited on 6-4-2009 by sakshaug007] |
If all matter were to seek the lowest possible energy level then everything would be frozen would it not?
Rather matter seeks equilibrium with its environment. If it is at a lower energy state it will seek to increase its energy state and if its at a
higher energy state it will seek to reduce its energy state.
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not_important
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| Quote: | | If all matter were to seek the lowest possible energy level then everything would be frozen would it not? |
But the energy has to go somewhere, and it can't go "uphill", from a cooler to a hotter area. Plus there is impedance to its leaving, it can only
leave an area at a certain rate.
The lowest possible energy level is that which is in equilibrium with its environment; below that is not lower in energy in terms of the system, just
the object taken on its own and you can't really consider objects in isolation except in though experiments.
The Earth isn't frozen solid because the Sun continuous to supply it with energy. The Sun stays hot because of the nuclear reactions in its interior;
it will stay so for as long as those reactions are able to happen, and there is a measure of rate self-regulation in the Sun.
| Quote: | My thought is simply this, if you remove electrons from a gas you are removing energy after all electrons are energy and the result must be a lower
energy state.
Conversely if you add electrons to an atom you are adding energy (electrons) so the result must be a higher energy state. |
Electrons are not energy, save in the E=MC2 sense. Ionised gas is in a higher energy state than the unionised gas, when an electron rejoins an
ionised atom or molecule it emits energy, often in the visible or UV range for outer electrons.
| Quote: |
ground state:
The condition of an atom, ion, or molecule, when all of its electrons are in their lowest possible energy levels, i.e., not excited. When an atom is
in its ground state, its electrons fill the lowest energy orbitals completely before they begin to occupy higher energy orbitals.
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Sedit
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| Quote: Originally posted by D4RR3N | | Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | @D4RR
Ill see if I can Find the text its in PDF format somewhere here on my computer but its been like 10 years since Iv accessed it so it may take some
time to find what I did with it when moving from one computer to another. A quick web seach turned up first link the same think but it was nothing
more then a quote from the PDF that I have. Try searching Google and if you turn up nothing Ill start digging thru my Zip files to see if I can find
it. |
I searched and read all I could on Teslas flying machine and I did not find anything quoting him saying ionisation can minipulate air density or
temprature. This address contains all known quotes tesla made with regards to how his flying machine functions.
http://www.frank.germano.com/flying_machine.htm
His device obviously used gyroscopic stabilisation so I'm guessing the heart of his machine was his Tesla turbine somehow adapted to produce a jet
engine, he talks about powerful jets of air that can be directed in any direction. He also says his device can move in any direction.
My thoughts ate a circular craft with a central downward jet providing lift and a movable jet providing change in direction. |
His design consisted of an array of capacitors on the bottom of the craft that where in two phases so when half where discharging the other half was
charging. No one knows if he could have constructed such a craft but his thoughts where that he would be able to use the craft to repel against the
magnetic field of the earth.
Ill take a look and see if I can find the papers on it for you. Remeber its only a theoretical design of his but he wasnt a moron either.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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chief
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Ionization <--> recombination is a balance system; ionization requires addition of energy, and recombination sets it free.
After all ionization of a gas leads to a plasma; plasma is a higher state of aggregation, bound to higher temperatures ; to decrease temperature
therefore a lower state has to be searched, eg. the liquid one.
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watson.fawkes
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First things first. In chemistry terms, the reaction is Neutral + Energy --> Ion + Ion. Thus it's an endothermic reaction and the ion products
contain more energy than the neutral reagent.
On the other hand, there might be something to the observed cooling near HV equipment. It's certain that ions of a given gas species have a different
Joule-Thomson coefficient than the non-ionized gas. The difference is that an ionized gas has appreciable potential energy in the electrostatic
repulsion of the ions with each other. What I don't know offhand is whether the effect is large enough to be readily observable.
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D4RR3N
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I do believe that the application of high voltage can be used to cool air, just trying to figure out how it works.
Lets look at it from another angle. When a gas expands it cools, as a gas expands its density decreases also.
If you ionise air then the air molecules all being of the same charge must mutually repel each other. This mutual repulsion must cause the charged air
cloud to expand. The expansion must result in a density decrease.
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sakshaug007
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| Quote: Originally posted by D4RR3N | I do believe that the application of high voltage can be used to cool air, just trying to figure out how it works.
Lets look at it from another angle. When a gas expands it cools, as a gas expands its density decreases also.
If you ionise air then the air molecules all being of the same charge must mutually repel each other. This mutual repulsion must cause the charged air
cloud to expand. The expansion must result in a density decrease. |
I could be wrong but I'm not so sure the ideal gas law (PV=nRT) would apply with ionized gases, being that they are not an ideal gas. This repelling
expansion of like charged ions might occur but perhaps for only a fraction of a second before they recombine with the free electrons being generated
and release energy in the form of heat and light.
Just a thought.
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D4RR3N
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Ions last in the environment allot longer then a few seconds otherwise electric air ionisers would be useless.
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Sedit
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They work on the principle of combining with positive charged particals in the air rendering them neutral where they fall to the ground.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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sakshaug007
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I believe the way those so called "air ionizers" work i.e. Sharper Image Ionicbreeze. Simply use electricity to charge plates (capacitor) which
attracts statically charged dust particles, basically what Sedit described. This is different than gas ionization, i.e. plasma, as your device
describes. Statically charged dust particles will likely remain charged longer than a gas ion in the same environment if for no other reason than
there is more charge to neutralize on the dust than on the gas ion.
[Edited on 7-4-2009 by sakshaug007]
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D4RR3N
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Ionised gas is not a plasma necessarily. If you get a high voltage supply say 100kv
and attach a needle to the output you can charge up objects across the other side of the room just by pointing the needle at them. It proves that
ione can easily travel several meters.
The home ionisers you purchase are only say 3kv max
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sakshaug007
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D4RR2N,
I understand the concept you put forth, that by ionizing the gas it would create positive ions of like charge that would want to rapidly expand away
from one another thereby causing a cooling effect. According to the Joule-Thomson effect, however, in order for the cooling effect to take place upon
expansion of the gas there has to be a van der waals attraction between molecules as stated by the following quote from the wiki article, of all
places 
"As a gas expands, the average distance between molecules grows. Because of intermolecular attractive forces (see Van der Waals force), expansion
causes an increase in the potential energy of the gas. If no external work is extracted in the process and no heat is transferred, the total energy of
the gas remains the same because of the conservation of energy. The increase in potential energy thus implies a decrease in kinetic energy and
therefore in temperature."
Since the gas you're speaking of creating (positively charged ions) would have no significant van der waals forces acting on the ions due to the much
stronger coulombic repulsion taking place and therefore:
"A second mechanism has the opposite effect. During gas molecule collisions, kinetic energy is temporarily converted into potential energy. As the
average intermolecular distance increases, there is a drop in the number of collisions per time unit, which causes a decrease in average potential
energy. Again, total energy is conserved, so this leads to an increase in kinetic energy (temperature). Below the Joule–Thomson inversion
temperature, the former effect (work done internally against intermolecular attractive forces) dominates, and free expansion causes a decrease in
temperature. Above the inversion temperature, gas molecules move faster and so collide more often, and the latter effect (reduced collisions causing a
decrease in the average potential energy) dominates: Joule–Thomson expansion causes a temperature increase."
All positively charged molecules would want to move away from one another thereby increasing kinetic energy and thus temperature.
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Sedit
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The way I see it this is so easy to test why is there even a discussion on it. Two thermometers, a tube with a coil inside to one terminal and a coil
outside to another, and an HV source. Feed air in and measure the temperature before and after it is ionized and it will give you your definitive
answer. I could have a set up such as this done in a matter of hours. Experimentation is King.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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sakshaug007
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | | The way I see it this is so easy to test why is there even a discussion on it. Two thermometers, a tube with a coil inside to one terminal and a coil
outside to another, and an HV source. Feed air in and measure the temperature before and after it is ionized and it will give you your definitive
answer. I could have a set up such as this done in a matter of hours. Experimentation is King. |
I agree sedit, I am curious to see what the experiment would reveal. I'm not trying to instigate an argument, in fact I think its fun discussing it.
I'm simply stating the science I'm familiar with as anyone would be expected to. It's all good!
"If everyone knew everything what would be the point?"
-Anonymous
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PHILOU Zrealone
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It looks a bit like magnetohydrodynamic (MHD)...the presence of ions/ionisation is suited...
In MHD usually one heats the media to a plasma and make use of easily ionisable salts
The intital drawing in initial post will give some troubles because the gas comes from a closed vessel!
-If it is liquefied gas...it will boil and reduce its temperature by itself when the gas expand into the universe, this might give some toubles to
notice the temperature difference if any occurs, and the system will not last long unless the vessel is warmed...
-If it is gaseous, assuming the process works, there will be a depressurisation that will be very fast compensed by income of external atmospheric
pressure via the oposite opening...
--> the system must be an two opened one with a perfecly cylindrical reactor.
Something that must also be considered is the self heating of the coil that might give heat to the gas in the reactor...so reactor must be insulated
from the coil
There are a lot of experiments in electricity that provides tips for the design:
-the power of needles: if a open wire ends with a sharp end (like a needle) and is submitted to a high voltage one can observe a polarised wind...this
is used in the famous "caroussel experiment" where a free moving conducting 4 arm cross (perpendicular to each other) made out of wires ended with
perpendicular needles a bit like the nazi's cross...the center of the cross display a notch that allows to put the cross in equilibrium on a needle
(perpendicular to the cross plane). If a high voltage is submitted to the system, the cross starts to turn arround the supporting needle...the turning
speed depends on the voltage
-the famous flying triangle structure called "LIFTER" is also based on a very high voltage on a conducting cylinder; by reaction a tiny wire parallel
to the cylinder and not touching it charge to the opposite charge...the wire and the cylinder repel themselves air comming arround the big cylinder
surface charge and flows in the direction of the wire creating a polarised wind...Note again the need for an asymetry!
By assosiation of serveral triangle structures one can actually build very large objects...each triangle can lift a few grams but it cost very high
voltage to do so...increasing the amount of triangle structures will allow to lift more weight...triangles are used to consolidate the structure.
Conductors are hold in place by resistant insulated and light structures like plastic straws or balsa woden stocks.
[Edited on 8-4-2009 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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chief
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From the atomic physics scale it's just simple: To take off electrons from a atom (i.e. "ionizing it"), a characteristic amount of eV
("electronVolts") has to be put into the system. eV can easily be converted into Joule: 1 ev == 1.60217653(14)×10−19 joules, so if some table
says the second ionization energy of nitrogen == 29.601 eV that means: For charging 1 N-atom to 2+ those 29 eV are needed ; convert this into kJ/mol,
quite much !
This energy is put into the system by the electric current, with less than 100 % efficiency. So there will be expected heating, not cooling.
The impression of cooling might come from the electric wind from some corona discharge, that should cool like any other wind by evaporating the
moisture of the skin etc. .
Of course: If it were possible to superheat gas, while preventing the ionization by some trick, and then to sudenly allow ionization, then this
ionization would take heat out of the gas, thereby cooling it. That would maybe function by some quite ingenious experimantation setup in the
temperature range of 1000s of Celsius.
[Edited on 8-4-2009 by chief]
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