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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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"controlled substances & "listed" subtances
Although I know that 21 CFR Parts 1309 and 1310 are laws that only apply to the USA equivalent laws likely exist in the country in which you happen to
live. These laws were passed in an effort to stem the manufacturer and use of narcotics. The "Controlled Substances Act" consists of 5
lists of mostly drugs, which I don't care about anyway, but list IV does contain paraldehyde - potentially very useful to the amateur chemist.
These are just plain illegal to have. The "Listed Chemicals" are not illegal to have but the handlers and sellers must be
"regulated" by the federal govt. On List I ("precursors" are
included anthranilic acid, methylamine, ethylamine, propionic anhydride, hydriodic acid, benzaldehyde, red phosphorus, white phosphorus, and
hypophosphorous acid and its salts. List II ("essential" chemicals) contains: acetic anhydride, acetone, benzyl chloride, ethyl ether,
KMnO4, MEK, toluene, HCl, H2SO4, MIBK, and iodine. These are all potenitally very useful to the home chemist. There are "threshold"
limits on these chemicals. So if you buy 3 liters of toluene at the local hardware store the pimply faced teenager who waited on you may report you
to the DEA!
Drug use along with terrorism is making it difficult to pursue our ancient and honorable hobby! And it is making me paranoid about having a home lab.
None of this is likely news to most on this forum. I just brought it up to vent some frustration and see how the rest of you feel. Comments please.
Note: a search on Google will quickly bring you the DEA websites which list these laws.
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guaguanco
Hazard to Others
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Mood: heterocyclic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Magpie
Drug use along with terrorism is making it difficult to pursue our ancient and honorable hobby! And it is making me paranoid about having a home lab.
None of this is likely news to most on this forum. I just brought it up to vent some frustration and see how the rest of you feel. Comments please.
Note: a search on Google will quickly bring you the DEA websites which list these laws.
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As we have discussed on another thread, I can certainly sympathise.
When I was in high school, both my friend and I had nice chem labs. We had nice reagents. We did lots of interesting chemistry. I synthesized a
variety of local anesthetics, heterocyclics, odd organic compounds. It was a really cool hobby
I honestly don't think it is feasable to persue serious, technically advanced amatuer chemistry in the US nowadays; not under terms I could
accept. Even if I had nothing but a garage full of legal reagents and glassware, I would assume I would be at risk for arrest, a lengthy legal hassle,
and a variety of government agencies circling around like vultures.
It didn't used to be that way, but we live in ignorant and paranoid times. I can't take those risks; I have people depending on me.
[Edited on 19-1-2004 by guaguanco]
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Hermes_Trismegistus
National Hazard
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Registered: 27-11-2003
Location: Greece, Ancient
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Mood: conformation:ga
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Thanks Magpie!
(I respect guaguanco and his choice of priorities. But I have no mouths to feed!)
There was a patriot whose words we still teach in our schoolbooks here in Canada. Because it describes a little piece of our national character.
A man once said " I love the Queen of England, and would gladly lay down my life for her in a moment! But if the parliment passed a law tomorrow
that forbid any but the royal family to use red ink, I would cheerfully write her a congratulatory letter wishing her a long and happy life. In ink,
the brightest shade of crimson I could purchase!"
That other thread had me wondering what 20 chemicals I most wanted.
Now I have a list.Thanx Magpie!
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win: you\'re still retarded.
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Mendeleev
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Toluene and HCL are sold in 1 gal. (3.78 liter) cans. I bought several cans the other day and lady just smiled and asked me if I was going to drink
all that today. Nobody really gives a shit about stuff like toluene, H2SO4, HCl, or MEK, that stuff is too common, I could walk out the store with
ten liters of it and not even blink. I'm right with Hermes, add those to my top 20 list.
[Edited on 19-1-2004 by Mendeleev]
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hodges
National Hazard
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Registered: 17-12-2003
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HCl
I looked all over for "muriatic acid". Finally found it at Home Depot. It came in a box of 3 1-gallon containers and the box clearly
stated "Do not open box - to be sold as a unit only!". Cost was around $7 for 3 gallons. I didn't get any reactions buying it -
although I don't exactly look like a kid either.... Anyone need a couple gallons for free?
Hodges
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Mendeleev
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Don't ever be afraid of having a home lab, you could have labeled 95% nitric acid 98% sulfuric acid and toluene, glycerine, and hexamine right
next to eachother and a copy of instructions on how to make explosives on your computer, and the cops can't do shit unless they prove that
you've actually made explosives or that you were conspiring too, knowlede and resources don't make a consiracy in U.S. courts, they make a
case dismissal based on circumstantial evidence, so experiment all you want Magpie, and the feds only watch you if you buy really restricted stuff
like acetic anhydride or methylamine.
[Edited on 20-1-2004 by Mendeleev]
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guaguanco
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 26-11-2003
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Mood: heterocyclic
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mendeleev
Don't ever be afraid of having a home lab, you could have labeled 95% nitric acid 98% sulfuric acid and toluene, glycerine, and hexamine right
next to eachother and a copy of instructions on how to make explosives on your computer, and the cops can't do shit unless they prove that
you've actually made explosives or that you were conspiring too,
[Edited on 20-1-2004 by Mendeleev] |
I admire your faith in the honesty and integrity of American law enforcement agencies. It certainly exceeds mine.
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Mendeleev
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What exactly are the requirments for list 1 and 2 chemicals? I used to think that list 1 chemicals were illegal to own without a license and list 2
required a license only above the threshold. However as an experiment I went onto http://www.sciencelab.com/ which sells to individuals and attempted to see if they would let me buy several list 1 chemicals such as hydriodic
acid. Everything was fine and it got all the way up to the credit card part, and then I stopped because I don't really need any hydriodic acid
at the moment. This got me confused, maybe list one requires records keeping and list 2 only requires record keeping above the threshold? Does
anybody know?
[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Mendeleev]
Trogdor was a man. A dragon man. Or maybe just a dragon. . .
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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"controlled substances" vs "listed chemicals"
If I remember correctly from my reading of the 21 CFR 1300, "controlled substances" consist of 5 lists of drugs for which you have to be
licensed to have.
"Listed chemicals" consist of "precursors" and "essential chemicals." They are legal to buy and own, but the handlers
and sellers are regulated.
On this subject, don't be surprised to someday see stickers on your retailer's door, and on the shelves near the drain cleaner, that
"meth watch" is watching what you buy. There are indications that this will be happening eventually in my community.
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atombum
Harmless
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Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I've read on many occasions that List I chemicals now require a DEA permit to buy and sell.
As far as your purchase experiment, you'd definately receive an inquisitive phone call from the company on this or any suspicious order.
While on the subject of ScienceLab, I think they have a sister company called LabDepot (the graphics and website functionality are almost
indentical). One difference is at Depot, just about every controlled substance is for sale and is clickable, just like an average reagent. An idiot
trap, perhaps?
Also Mendeleev stated ScienceLab sells to individuals, but the chem section states something to the effect of "supplying businesses, schools,
and laboratories", anyone here purchased from them as an individual?
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Mendeleev
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I sent them an e-mail a while back asking if they sold to individuals, I think they said said yes. If list 1 chemicals require a permit how is it you
can just check them out of the website, they don't ask for ID or anything.
Trogdor was a man. A dragon man. Or maybe just a dragon. . .
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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I have seen numerous sites selling listed chemicals request some sort of "DEA permit" for sales of those chemicals. However, some while back
I read the relevant sections of the CFR, and though transactions of List I chemicals are more stringently regulated than those on List II (or plain
unlisted chemicals), there is no legal requirement for an end-user to have any sort of permit. Manufacturers, resellers, and importers seem to have a
lot of work to do though.
It is a crime to sell chemicals to someone if you have a reasonable idea that they will be used for illegal purposes. I imagine this is why many sites
go above and beyond what the law requires when it comes to selling listed chemicals, so that their own asses are well-covered. In the same vein,
individual transactions in List I chemicals have to be reported only if the same purchaser purchases more than a threshold amount per month, but I
wouldn't be surprised if some chemical sellers just sent records for all List I sales to the government, not bothering to weed out those
transactions too small to demand reporting. Of course I can just as easily imagine sellers not wanting to deal with the reporting hassle and simply
refusing to engage in regulated-quantity transactions with most customers. In this case records must be kept for a certain number of years, but they
don't have to be shown to anybody until/unless the government wants to see them.
I don't know how such records are actually delivered to the government and reviewed. I don't recall if that was even covered in the section
of the CFR I was reading, or if it was in another section.
[Edited on 6-13-2004 by Polverone]
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Mendeleev
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What if you order lots of chemicals as an individual in large quantities, like 200 L and 600 lbs, but none of them are listed. Stuff like
formaldehyde and acetaldehyde, ammoniun chloride, and calcium hypochlorite. Would the DEA get on you for that?
Trogdor was a man. A dragon man. Or maybe just a dragon. . .
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
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Mood: .
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Or opposed to large ammounts of unregulated chems how about very small(1-4 oz)amounts of listed reagents. How much are these watched?
Mendeleev: are you speaking from a theoretical standpoint or do you actually plan to order these ammounts?
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Mendeleev
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I have not decided, but I am seriously considering ordering some these large amounts, 2 30 kg bags of ammoniun chloride, 480 lbs of formaldehyde, 100
lbs of calcium hypochlorite, 750 lbs of sulfuric acid (hey its only $115.00), and I haven't found acetaldehyde in large quantities for cheap yet.
It may be one of these mass orders or all or none, I am not sure yet.
[Edited on 13-6-2004 by Mendeleev]
Trogdor was a man. A dragon man. Or maybe just a dragon. . .
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Cyrus
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Mendeleev, I would be more than slightly hesitant to order that much stuff.
It seems that the all-knowing all-loving nanny government is watching every move anyone makes now and days, but you can't really be sure what is
being watched unless you are the one watching.
Don't get mad, guys. The government cares deeply for you, and wants to protect you from yourself. Be encouraged that your friendly big brother
is watching out over you, ready to lend a helping hand and sock you whenever he feels like it. 
They know when you are sleeping, they know when you're awake. They know if you've been good or bad, so no chemicals for goodness sake!
America the Land of the Free...
Well, at least I live in Persia.
Sorry for the rant.
I doubt they care if the stuff isn't expedient towards bomb/terr. activities.
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Mendeleev
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Well, the chemicals may or may not be watched, but they are not listed, which means I could order 8 tons of ammonium chloride to be dumped in my back
yard, and if the feds object I have the right to tell them to kiss my ass because it's not one of the listed chemicals. My question is, will
they object at all since the chemicals are not listed?
Trogdor was a man. A dragon man. Or maybe just a dragon. . .
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Eliteforum
National Hazard
Posts: 571
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Location: United Kingdom
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Mood: Enjoying the journey
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"They" might not arrest you for ordering such large amounts of an unwatched chemical. But I can bet they will charge/fine you for improper
storage!
All that glitters isn't gold.
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hodges
National Hazard
Posts: 525
Registered: 17-12-2003
Location: Midwest
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Why would anyone need large quantities for mad science use? The reagent I use the most commonly is probably NaOH. Yet I doubt I have used much more
than 0.5kg in the past 6 months. The smallest amount of HCl I could buy was 2 gallons - and I have used a small fraction of the first gallon bottle.
The smallest amount of powdered Al I could get was 1 pound. I've done lots of thermite experiments but still have probably 80% of this left. I
have done about a dozen different experiments with iodine compounds and still have over half the 4oz of KI I bought left. I've done silvering,
made a silver tree, and made at least three types of silver explosives (some multiple times) but am still on the original 1oz bottle of AgNO3.
I really don't see why someone would need large quantities of chemicals for mad science use. For pyro I can understand it - as there are
consumables and size does matter for shows. But for mad science? I just don't see the need.
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Mendeleev
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See, the difference in our thinking is you are conducting analytical experiments, I am producing substances for a purpose. The reason is, I doubt any
one of us here is doing anything new, there isn't too much we can discover by experimenting in jam jars in back yards. Those days are past, so
what we are basically doing is finding ways to reinvent the wheel, how to synthesize substances which have already been synthesized for 50 years or
more, so making something which has already been made to death is useless in small quantities. In large quantities it can be used to make explosive
charges or sold for lots of money depending on what you're making.
Trogdor was a man. A dragon man. Or maybe just a dragon. . .
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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Bulk prices are better.
It might cost you $20 to buy 500 g of NaNO2 from an online lab supplier. It might cost you $50 to buy 25 kg of NaNO2 from a supplier who deals in
larger quantities. If you have the space, the money, and think you might ever use more than ~1.25 kg of NaNO2, the larger unit size is obviously the
better deal.
If you have more time than money - as many of us seem to - you could also recoup your costs by reselling smaller units on eBay at a markup.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Cyrus
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Or he could be really nice and sell some to his fellow experimenters for no/very little markup. And I don't think THEY will notice.
Does anyone know how much this board itself is watched? If I say certain key words, will I be placed on a LIST?
OH NO!
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
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We most likely are being watched but probally with less concern than other forums like E&W or the drug ones.
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Johnny
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There is no question that all discussions of a certain nature are not only watched but recorded. There are vertually no limits to what the US
Goverment is doing in response to terrorism. Remember folks; that was a higher loss of lives & material than Pearl Harbor. When they say
"War" they mean war. The only saving grace is that perhaps they employ people who weed through the stuff and make a human determination of
what would, justifiably, need to be further investigated. The "drug" issue is non-existent on this board. That would not be the focus of the
inquiry. But someone using the thing to further their "bomb-making" ability may be. I have a small company and I do some metal plating. I
buy chemicals frequently and have had the chemical companies themselves verify that I am legit. I don't get mad I simply offer the need
documentation. ---It happens.
If I was really bright I would have a cool sig.
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JohnWW
International Hazard
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I am fairly sure that, these days, most if not all suppliers of chemicals, both analytical-grade for laboratories, and technical-grade for large-scale
chemical manufacturing or agriculture or similar, keep permanent records of the names and addresses of customers, and probably in many cases demand
proof of identity of purchasers.
It is certain that they would do this in the cases of purchases of nitrate compounds (e.g. ammonium or potassium nitrate) ostensibly for use as
fertilizers, perchlorates which can also be used as explosives, nitric acid which is the most important ingredient for making organic
nitro-explosives, and chemicals which can be used for or as precursors in making drugs (e.g. ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, red phosphorus, acetic
anhydride).
Because the latter group are used exclusively in organic synthesis, not in analytical testing of substances or products, relatively few commercial or
institutional laboratories order them. You would certainly have to set up some sort of quasi-legitimate organization in order to be safe ordering
them.
The same would also apply to deadly poisons like cyanides and cyanates, strychnine/brucine, atropine, and possibly compounds of uranium, arsenic,
antimony, and thallium.
John W.
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