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Mildronate
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Nitrating creosote
Nitrating creosote will be good idea?
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ScienceSquirrel
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That depends on how you define a good idea!
Creosote is a mixture of phenols and cresols so it would form nitro phenol type compounds when nitrated. It is a mixture of all sorts of things so
your product would be a complex mixture as well
I would guess that this would substantially increase its toxicity, so it would be better as a wood preservative but proably more toxic to anyone using
it and the environment.
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Mildronate
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Creosote is cheap.
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hissingnoise
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So is cotton - and a much better bet than creosote for nitration. . .
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Mildronate
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Why better?
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ScienceSquirrel
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Nitrating cellulose will make gun cotton, a potent explosive
Nitrating creosote will probably make a toxic mess
That is better in anyone's book!
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Mildronate
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Nitrating creosote will make mixture of explosives. i dont care about toxic preporties 
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hissingnoise
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Forget creosote - it won't nitrate smoothly and you'll end up with a sticky, toxic, partially explosive goo, as SS just mentioned. . .
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Mildronate
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But krezole nitrating easyer than phenol.
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hissingnoise
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WTF!
Did you ask for advice just for the hell of it?
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The WiZard is In
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Sorry more cut and paste info anyone could have found
using Google. Sooo those (insert expletive) who believe
so can be true to their beliefs and stop reading here, the
rest of you can vote with your eyeballs.
Hand-book of chemistry, Volume 12
By Leopold Gmelin, Henry Watts
1857
A mixture of sulphuric and nitric acid acts violently on creosote, forming a yellowish-
red solution, which, when largely diluted with water, yields a small quantity of
whitishyellow, amorphous, explosive substance. (Gorup-Besanez.)
Practical dispensing for students, pharmaceutical and medical
By Charles John Samuel Thompson
1891
EXPLOSIVE REMEDIES.
Occasionally the dispenser may find ordered in prescriptions certain drugs which,
when brought in contact, form explosive compounds of a dangerous nature, and in
the mixing of which the greatest care is necessary. It behoves him, therefore, to act
with special caution when handling or dispensing such mixtures. In many cases the
prescriber may be ignorant of the danger of combining the ingredients, and, unless
the dispenser be on his guard, a very nasty accident may result. Care should be
exercised in mixing all chlorates, and in triturating them with other chemical
substances. Chlorate of potass forms an explosive compound when brought directly
in contact with creosote. With oxide of silver also, creosote forms a dangerous
combination. In both cases, if the ingredients are first mixed with some inert powder
before being brought in contact, the danger may be avoided, and they may, with
care, be dispensed together. Chlorate of potass, when rubbed dry with tannin, forms
an explosive mixture. Bichromate of potass and chromic acid form dangerous
compounds with other bodies, and care should be observed when bringing the latter
in contact with glycerine. Permanganate of potass is liable to cause an explosion
when mixed with any rapidly deoxidising agent. The dangerous explosive iodide of
nitrogen is formed by combining iodine and ammonia, and caution should be used in
mixing salts of these bodies. Spirit of turpentine, when brought in contact with strong
sulphuric acid, bursts into flame. Hypochlorite of sulphur is liable to explode
sometimes on tapping the stopper of the bottle it is kept in. Iodine and charcoal also
form a dangerous mixture. Nitro-glycerine or glonoine, now employed in making the
official tablets, is usually kept in i per cent, solution, and may be handled in safety in
that form and strength. Syrups kept for a length of time in tightly corked bottles are
liable to explode, owing to fermentation taking place and liberation of C03.
Legal medicine, Volume 2
By Charles Meymott Tidy
1882
(7.) It is stated that pills made of nitrate of silver and creosote, also of a mixture of
nitrate of silver, extract of nux vomica, hydrochlorate of morphia, conserve of roses
and extract of gentian, have proved explosive. (" Med. Press and Circular," 1874, I., p. 518.)
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hissingnoise
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Mildronate obviously intends separating m-'krezole' from the soup by a long and intensive fractionation. . .
On nitration, he'll have something nearly approaching TNT in power!
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: | Hand-book of chemistry, Volume 12
By Leopold Gmelin, Henry Watts
1857
A mixture of sulphuric and nitric acid acts violently on creosote, forming a yellowish-
red solution, which, when largely diluted with water, yields a small quantity of
whitishyellow, amorphous, explosive substance. (Gorup-Besanez.) |
That reference is over a hundred and fifty years old and do not forget creosote is a complex mixture that varies from sample to sample.
I would forget creosote.
Simply put salicylic acid is easily made from aspirin tablets by a competent chemist.
I described my preparation here.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10914&...
A couple of hundred tablets costing a few pounds will yield more than enough to make sufficent picric acid to maim or kill you!
Also salicylic acid is readily available, I can buy 1kg for £15 from a supplier that deals in cleaning agents.
More than enough to make a king sized hole in your house!
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ScienceSquirrel
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Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  | Mildronate obviously intends separating m-'krezole' from the soup by a long and intensive fractionation. . .
On nitration, he'll have something nearly approaching TNT in power!
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Good bleeding luck to him!
The old tar distillers did just that with acid and base extractions, fractional crystallisations, 100ft columns.
He will be a better chemist for it though! 
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel | | Quote: | Hand-book of chemistry, Volume 12
By Leopold Gmelin, Henry Watts
1857
A mixture of sulphuric and nitric acid acts violently on creosote, forming a yellowish-
red solution, which, when largely diluted with water, yields a small quantity of
whitishyellow, amorphous, explosive substance. (Gorup-Besanez.) |
That reference is over a hundred and fifty years old and do not
forget creosote is a complex mixture that varies from sample to
sample.
I would forget creosote.
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Twenty-five words or less — Why me Lord?
Another bad case of damnant quod non itelligunt.
Picric acid is 239 years old.
And this dobe the home of experimental science .....
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: | Chlorate of potass forms an explosive compound when brought directly
in contact with creosote. With oxide of silver also, creosote forms a dangerous
combination. |
Really you are showing off your ignorance now.
Chlorate of potass ( potassium chlorate ), silver oxide ( oxide of silver ) and wood creosote, to which the quote refers, were all used in Victorian
medicine.
Wood creosote is completely different to coal creosote and is still used to a limited extent today.
A description of the properties and uses of wood creosote can be found here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote
Potassium chlorate and wood creosote were commonly used in cough medicines so mixing them together would have looked like a good idea to the Victorian
pharmacist.
But the fact is that potassium chlorate is a strong oxidiser and creosote is an organic material that may contain acid impurities that may be
sufficient to form chloric acid and cause a spontaneous explosion.
So mixing them together would have been a bad idea!
What is the point of digging up this ancient stuff and quoting it verbatim without any commentary or analysis?
Do you want to kill someone naive and stupid enough to try it out?
[Edited on 10-8-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel |
So mixing them together would have been a bad idea!
What is the point of digging up this ancient stuff and quoting it verbatim without any commentary or analysis?
Do you want to kill someone naive and stupid enough to try it out?
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Hummmm the fact that it dobe clearly stated that it
will blow up seems upon me to be perhaps? A warning?!
If explosives were safe - they wouldn't be explosives.
And didn't the original post concern itself w/ making an
explosive compound w/ creosote....?
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: |
If explosives were safe - they wouldn't be explosives.
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One of the key features of modern civilian and military explosives is their resistance to accidental firing.
This allows safe shipping and handling. The charge will only go off when a detonator is used.
This is particularly important under battlefield conditions.
If a group of soldiers has to go forward and lay a charge to destroy a strong point, it is good for morale if they know that a stray bullet will not
blow up the charges they are carrying on the way forward to plant them in the enemy's defences.
The whole point of soldiering is not to die for your country but to win the war and come home safely!
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel | | Quote: |
If explosives were safe - they wouldn't be explosives.
|
One of the key features of modern civilian and military explosives is their resistance to accidental firing.
This allows safe shipping and handling. The charge will only go off when a detonator is used.
This is particularly important under battlefield conditions.
If a group of soldiers has to go forward and lay a charge to destroy a strong point, it is good for morale if they know that a stray bullet will not
blow up the charges they are carrying on the way forward to plant them in the enemy's defences.
The whole point of soldiering is not to die for your country but to win the war and come home safely!
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Never-ever underestimate bad luck.
The Dance of Death
Two girl employees of an explosive factory in Westquater were engaged in
carrying a box containing detonating caps and priming composition for
same form the magazine into the workroom. They set the box on the ground
and began to dance together. One of the girls stumbled and turned over the
box of explosives, which caused the explosion of the whole load, and both
girls were blown to pieces.
J. Phillips, The Handling of Dangerous Goods, 249; 1896
In: H Brunswig "Explosives" John Wiley & Sons
New York 1912
The Annual Report (Nineteenth) of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Explosives for 1894.
In:— The Journal of the Society of Chemical Industry. July 31, 1895.
A brief account is given of the more interesting foreign explosions, from which it is
evident this country enjoys a happy immunity from accidents during manufacture
of explosives compared with America. Within five years, dynamite factories
owned by one company have, been blown up five times, and nine persons killed,
and at a other factory the "receiving mill" and two men were blown to atoms, this
being the fifth explosion within three years. An interesting account is given of the
accident on March 21st, 1894, whereby 15 lives were lost during operations to
get rid of the wreckage and unexploded dynamite, and exuded nitroglycerin from
the " Cabro Machichaeo " which blew up at Santander in November of the
previous year. By means of a pump 1,150 kilos. of fluid nitroglycerin were
extracted, but then it congealed, and the pumps could not be used. The divers
brought up clusters of crystals of frozen nitroglycerin, and it was while one diver
was down that the explosion took place. Apparently all the nitroglycerin was
destroyed by this explosion, but the affair shows the great difficulty and danger
of dealing with nitroglycerin explosives which have been cast into the sea, either
by the vessel having been wrecked through stress of weather or
by explosion on board as in this case.
&c., &c. a got's a SL of reports such as this.
Oh and let me recommend a book, a library would be best,
it took me years to find a copy for sale.
History of Explosions on Which the American Table of Distances
Was Based
Compiled by Ralph Asseton
IME 1930
djh
---
The Principle of Caution.
One cannot anticipate all of the problems inherent in handling fireworks, despite all of
our knowledge and experience. Therefore we must proceed in an orderly fashion, e.g.:
(1)--
(8)-- Pay attention to things in the shadows.
(10)--.
Takeo Shimizu
Fireworks From a Physical Standpoint.
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ScienceSquirrel
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What is the relevance of stuff from a hundred years ago to modern practice in the maufacture and handling of explosives?
I suppose you are going to warn us about arrows next on the basis of Harold's unfortunate experience at the battle of Hastings!
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hissingnoise
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C'mon ScienceSquirrel, that's nitpickery!
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel | | Quote: |
If explosives were safe - they wouldn't be explosives.
|
One of the key features of modern civilian and military explosives is their resistance to accidental firing.
This allows safe shipping and handling. The charge will only go off when a detonator is used.
|
Article: 7 Killed in Ammunition Explosion in Afghanistan
Xinhua News Agency
A blast occurred at a big ammunition storehouse near the Afghan- Pakistan border Thursday night, killing seven persons, local radio reported.
According to the report, the blast took place at Spinboldak Town in southeast Afghanistan. A rocket in the storehouse exploded during the incident,
leading to a series of explosions and …
Soldier dies in Iraq ammo explosion
Army sergeant with relatives in Fredericksburg area is killed during ammunition explosion in Iraq
By CATHY DYSON
2/13/2004
An Army scout--whose grandmother, uncles and cousin live in the Fredericksburg area--was killed in Iraq on Monday after an explosion of Iraqi
ammunition.
Sgt. Thomas D. Robbins, 27, was near Mosul in northern Iraq, where a large collection of rocket-propelled grenades and mortar rounds had been
confiscated from the Iraqis, according to the Department of Defense.
As he and other soldiers were moving the unexploded ordnance to a demolition site, one of the rounds exploded, said Joe Hitt, an Army spokesman at
Fort Lewis, Wash., where Robbins was based.
The explosion killed Robbins and an Arizona National Guardsman and wounded five others. The incident is listed as a "non-hostile ordnance accident" on
the Iraq Coalition Casualty Count site, but is being investigated by the Department of Defense.
Guess they could put on their tombstones - Killed by safe
ammo. Sorry.
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel | What is the relevance of stuff from a hundred years ago to modern practice in the maufacture and handling of explosives?
I suppose you are going to warn us about arrows next on the basis of Harold's unfortunate experience at the battle of Hastings!
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Hastings?! No. The French's at Agincourt perhaps.
Brings to mind a book.
Hugh D. H. Soar
The Crooked Stick : A History of the Longbow
Westholme Yardley 2004
The book is not a page turner.
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franklyn
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Hastings in 1066 marked the Alpha , and Agincourt in 1415 the Omega
of the mounted Knight , by which time canon were beginning to make
their presence known , vanquishing Constantinople in 1453.
My two cents , penny wise and pound foolish.
The cost of available pure aromatic materials is trivial relative to the cost of the
acid required to achieve a detonable nitro compound. Toluene and solid Phenol
derivatives ( salicylic acid ) have well known behavior and properties in processing
contrasted to Creosote which is a diverse mixture of aromatic species each having
individual reaction kinetics such that the products obtained will be an inconsistent
varied assortment of mono , di-nitro , and some trinitro arenes. The phenols will
also form addition compounds with the other aromatics all forming a thick pasty
gooey syrup of who knows what , suitable only as a low velocity admixture with an
oxidzer salt for immediate use. On the whole a poor use of materials and effort
to obtain a mediocre result more cheaply and easily achieved with anfo.
.
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unionised
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| Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel | What is the relevance of stuff from a hundred years ago to modern practice in the maufacture and handling of explosives?
I suppose you are going to warn us about arrows next on the basis of Harold's unfortunate experience at the battle of Hastings!
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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Santayana
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