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Author: Subject: Bureaucratic burden of opening/running a lab
Whathappensif
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[*] posted on 3-8-2020 at 11:29


From Polverone's stickied post in this forum:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=25...

Quote:

Does your post belong in Legal and Societal Issues?

This forum is intended for discussion of legal and societal issues <b>that affect amateur science</b>. If you are going to post here, please:

-Make the connection to amateur science clear.
-Add commentary in your own words. Bare links or copied text without commentary is not useful.



I would say my post does belong in L&S issues. It checks out against both tests.

Quote: Originally posted by arkoma  
OP, do some chemistry and leave the controversy alone...........

*edit* you've been "here" three weeks, get over yourself

[Edited on 8-3-2020 by arkoma]


I have no interest in kudos or credit. When this account reaches a set number of posts it may even be closed. Post count means jack to me. You are really just insulting a ghost.

The assertion in the OP is that bureaucracy for start-ups is too onerous. I am still waiting for evidence or articles, saying that there is this utopia where bureaucracy is at the minimum and everything is just fine and dandy for start-ups and business enterprise especially in "dangerous" fields.

I am guilty of this too - but please keep personal anecdote out because it is unverifiable in an anonymous forum.
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Syn the Sizer
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[*] posted on 3-8-2020 at 11:43


Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  


I have a question, if you don't trust some "random guy" on this forum why the f**k are you even here .


That seems to be an end to it.
Well done!


Thanks, I do my best lol.

Honestly Whatifhappens, calm down.
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arkoma
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[*] posted on 3-8-2020 at 12:02


Quote:
I have no interest in kudos or credit. When this account reaches a set number of posts it may even be closed. Post count means jack to me. You are really just insulting a ghost.


Just what we need, more sockpuppets




Quote:
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.

Mark Twain

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unionised
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[*] posted on 3-8-2020 at 12:03


Quote: Originally posted by Whathappensif  
I have no interest in kudos or credit.

When this account reaches a set number of posts it may even be closed. Post count means jack to me. You are really just insulting a ghost.

The assertion in the OP is that bureaucracy for start-ups is too onerous. I am still waiting for evidence or articles, saying that there is this utopia where bureaucracy is at the minimum and everything is just fine and dandy for start-ups and business enterprise especially in "dangerous" fields.

I am guilty of this too - but please keep personal anecdote out because it is unverifiable in an anonymous forum.

"I have no interest in kudos or credit. "
We know- you keep telling us.

:-)
"You are really just insulting a ghost. "

You mean a ghost is trolling us.
We kind of worked that out already.

"When this account reaches a set number of posts it may even be closed. Post count means jack to me. "
Which is it?
Are you counting or not?

"The assertion in the OP is that bureaucracy for start-ups is too onerous. "
The assertion in the OP is that bureaucracy for start-ups is unsupported
The assertion in the OP is that bureaucracy for start-ups is implausible; businesses are not spending a quarter of their time on paperwork.

" I am still waiting for evidence or articles, saying that there is this utopia where bureaucracy is at the minimum and everything is just fine and dandy for start-ups and business enterprise especially in "dangerous" fields."
Good luck. But don't try to pretend that anyone here said that such a place existed.
That would be strawmanning.

"but please keep personal anecdote out because it is unverifiable in an anonymous forum"
Just like your post and the site you quote from in the OP.
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[*] posted on 3-8-2020 at 12:58


Quote: Originally posted by Whathappensif  

It wasn't intended to be condescending. It was intended to soften the tone of my post in case offense was misconstrued, which is a lot more than I can say you, unionized, Haber and Arkoma are affording me.

[Edited on 3-8-2020 by Whathappensif]


Have you bothered reading the methodology ? I browsed through it and wasnt as surprised as you apparently.
Yes, it takes time. And the bigger the business the more time it takes up until you have to hire people. Not necessarily because of a lack of skill but because of a lack of time.

Anyway, good luck opening the kind of business described in the case within city limits of any capital city in Europe.
Just based on the description it'll get categorized somewhere between heavy industry and metalworking (meaning: nuisance to neighbours!).

That's enough to make you unwelcome unless you are willing to spend the time, energy and sometimes money to prove you're a responsible business owner and pause no threat to your neighbours.

If you can prove you can be trusted with a dozen C2H2 cylinders on your premises in an urban environment that's cool.
And even if you dont use torches you'll cut, grind and paint metal.

Do you get where I'm going ?
No ? Well, ok, change their activity to electroplating.




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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Whathappensif
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[*] posted on 3-8-2020 at 23:51


Quote: Originally posted by unionised  

"I have no interest in kudos or credit. "
We know- you keep telling us.

:-)
"You are really just insulting a ghost. "

You mean a ghost is trolling us.
We kind of worked that out already.


You are the one exhibiting trollish behavior here. I have remained an adult and not resorted to ad hom attacks unlike you.

You still have provided no evidence to support your assertions and therefore by now I conclude you can not offer any.

Quote:

"When this account reaches a set number of posts it may even be closed. Post count means jack to me. "
Which is it?
Are you counting or not?


I'm not but you and others are. I must question why your or others' anonymous credit on this forum counts so much to you.

Quote:

"The assertion in the OP is that bureaucracy for start-ups is too onerous. "
The assertion in the OP is that bureaucracy for start-ups is unsupported
The assertion in the OP is that bureaucracy for start-ups is implausible; businesses are not spending a quarter of their time on paperwork.


A bald statement with zero evidence to back it up.


Quote:

" I am still waiting for evidence or articles, saying that there is this utopia where bureaucracy is at the minimum and everything is just fine and dandy for start-ups and business enterprise especially in "dangerous" fields."
Good luck. But don't try to pretend that anyone here said that such a place existed.
That would be strawmanning.


No it is not strawmanning. Did you even read the first sentence?

Quote:

Is there any country out there where the bureaucratic burden of a small enterprise opening a lab, whose work may involve the following hazards (gasp): chemicals, explosives, propellants, pyrotechnics, firearms, biological agents, radiological materials/sources, lasers and high voltage equipment is minimal?


Quote:

"but please keep personal anecdote out because it is unverifiable in an anonymous forum"
Just like your post and the site you quote from in the OP.


I have the maturity to accept that I shouldn't have posted personal anecdote. Maybe you should have the maturity to accept the same, since you are so highly educated. I don't think the site nor the book consists of solely personal anecdote.

Quote:

Education's purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one. - Malcolm Forbes



[Edited on 4-8-2020 by Whathappensif]
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Whathappensif
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[*] posted on 4-8-2020 at 00:12


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  

Have you bothered reading the methodology ? I browsed through it and wasnt as surprised as you apparently.
Yes, it takes time. And the bigger the business the more time it takes up until you have to hire people. Not necessarily because of a lack of skill but because of a lack of time.


Agreed. We may dispute the hours spent filling out paperwork but I would contend that it is possible to starve business enterprise, and according to the Administrative Burden book by Pamela Herd, freedoms too, by over-regulation.

Quote:

Anyway, good luck opening the kind of business described in the case within city limits of any capital city in Europe.
Just based on the description it'll get categorized somewhere between heavy industry and metalworking (meaning: nuisance to neighbours!).


Basically it isn't possible, not without a lot of money and/or time.

I am venturing into personal anecdote space here which has zero evidential value but a story some may find interesting is that opening a start-up dealing with any kind of dangerous materials or processes in a city involved multi-party negotiations with basically all the parties wanting no risk.

At any point, any party can just put their foot down (neighbors, municipality, fire dept, police, insurance, etc) and veto everything, in which case as a start-up you either try to fight it, or find new premises. No start-up wants to begin day 1 of operations with an enemy, so it means going to find new premises. When you find new premises you then need to get a civil engineering firm to assess the changes the building needs to comply with the legal requirements, bring it to multi-party consultation again and so on. Which can again fail at any stage.

So my questions are:
1. What countries are there where the regulatory burden to opening R&D or production facilities involving dangerous chemicals or processes, is lower? In terms of results, China seems to be the center of production these days but I hear the bureaucracy there is very heavy too.
2. Is there any correlation between the level of regulatory burden in a country, and the number of terror attacks, workplace accidents or accidents by k3wls?

Quote:

That's enough to make you unwelcome unless you are willing to spend the time, energy and sometimes money to prove you're a responsible business owner and pause no threat to your neighbours.


Yes.

Quote:

If you can prove you can be trusted with a dozen C2H2 cylinders on your premises in an urban environment that's cool.
And even if you dont use torches you'll cut, grind and paint metal.

Do you get where I'm going ?
No ? Well, ok, change their activity to electroplating.


Re acetylene, even experts get it wrong, see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iam27Mh1zu4

And even creme-de-la-creme rocket science experts, like failed rocket launches or planetary missions.

It seems that we live in an age where there is no tolerance for risk or failure and people are too busy covering their ass than allow scientists/engineers to get things done.
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[*] posted on 4-8-2020 at 01:57


Quote: Originally posted by Whathappensif  


You are the one exhibiting trollish behavior here. I have remained an adult and not resorted to ad hom attacks unlike you.


[Edited on 4-8-2020 by Whathappensif]

Please cite evidence of ad hom attack.
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[*] posted on 4-8-2020 at 10:31


This thread leads to nothing and nowhere . . .
I close it.

[Edited on 4-8-20 by woelen]




The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
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