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Author: Subject: THIS WILL BE ILLEGAL IN FEBURARY 2021 (EU)
NaK
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 03:56
THIS WILL BE ILLEGAL IN FEBURARY 2021 (EU)


Just a heads up:
*Nitromethane > 16%
*Sulfuric acid > 15%

Nitric acid > 3% (not new)
Hydrogen peroxide > 12% (not new)
Sodium/Potassium chlorate/perchlorate > 40% (not new)


will be banned from sale to private individuals within the EU in february.

So if you need one of these you would need to get them NOW

Further reading:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/DE/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A...
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:C...


[Edited on 15-1-2021 by NaK]
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mackolol
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 06:00


I don't see no sulfuric acid in this document.
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 06:03


It's in the link, eng ver: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A...

Sulphuric acid above 15% will be not available for public
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NaK
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 07:50


Someone told these fuckers you can make apex with sulfuric acid as catalyst. No one told them that you can use ANY FUCKING ACID for this purpose. This could be detremental to amateur chemistry as we know it, one of the absolutely most basic precursor you could think of. Now newbies will have to deal with 15% sulfuric acid, distilling it and possible hurting themselves in the process.


You can concentrate sulfuric acid by heating the crap out of it up to around 70-80%, so anyone dedicated enough could get a large glass vessel and concentrate the acid. But 90% will be quite hard
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 08:14


Anyone in dire need of sulfuric acid or nitromethane can hit me up, I have some in stock and will be selling it for future to come.
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 08:20


Amateur chemistry is now officially dead in Europe, I really wish amateur chemists would be able to legally fight these new regulations, though the fear-inducing arguments of terrorism will prevail anyway. Looking at the causes of deaths statistically it is FAR more likely to be killed by lightning than terrorism. I think it boils down to the fact that for a scientist it is "Publish or Perish", while for policy makers and security organizations it is "make new rules or perish". Sort of a hidden unemployment, obsessing over and regulating things that hold no reality to logic or the underlying statistics. IMO, many of these regulations when put on a logically and statistically weighted social-security-economic balance would actually prove to be detrimental, though the underlying detrimental consequences are not easily measured. In the best case, many regulations seem totally arbitrary. In the Netherlands, at least 3 organisations seem to be involved in preventing terrorism, The AIVD, the MIVD and the NCTV, the latter one supposedly having put forward their "vision" regarding dangerous chemicals. We are probably talking about 4000 people working on terrorism and related!!!! With such a low terrorism threat in the Netherlands I really wonder what it is exactly what all these people do every day, except being bored out of their minds. :) https://www.indymedia.nl/node/29711.

Even worse: They have been so bored by the lack of any meaningful thing to do that the MILITARY intelligence community (MIVD) has started using their developed strategies and weapons (social media influencing) against their own citizens. https://tweakers.net/nieuws/174614/leger-verzamelde-informat...
A somewhat musing thought is that this effect is maybe quite akin to how some auto-immune diseases develop as well, where the immune system starts to attack its own host.

Strangely though, while this is arguably one of the most frightening news articles in decades, the media was directed towards a group of 40 children rioting in Noord-Velzen, for which the mayor declared a STATE OF EMERGENCY!!! https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2020/12/21/noodbevel-in-velsen-noo... Coincidence?


https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/publicaties/2021/01/...
Very recently, Dutch parliament has resigned due to injustices done by members of our tax service, of which supposedly most members of parliament were barely informed.
Sooooooo, when are we going to see some public consequences for the MIVD that willingly and knowingly violated the Dutch constitution, undermining the very foundation of our democracy?!?! After this scandal of the MIVD, there should be multiple resignations of the people involved, a reorganization of the internal structure and laws and regulations should be carefully examined to prevent these kind of atrocities in the future. But no...nothing is heard at all...but parliament is resigning now. :(

I'll repeat it again: HIDDEN UNEMPLOYMENT! Politicians, PLEASE, cut their budgets!!!

Although...Party member of the VVD, Halbe Zijlstra tried... https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/node/2368046 He was quickly made into a security risk by having lied about a supposed meeting with Vladimir Poetin, meaning the end of his political carreer. https://www.ad.nl/dossier-aftreden-halbe-zijlstra/rutte-erke... IMO, he might still be stalked by the AIVD till this very day... https://myprivacy.dpgmedia.nl/consent/?siteKey=V9f6VUvlHxq9w... In the case of Halbe Zijlstra it might have been a pure conflict of interest and if this would ever be proven the case ABSOLUTELY unacceptable!!!

Same story for secratary Grapperhaus, who dismissed an AIVD report concerning the security risks of introducing the Huawei 5G network in 2019. https://www.nu.nl/internet/5962413/grapperhaus-deelde-5g-adv... Only a year later, a story became the headline in the media abouth Grapperhaus violating the 1.5 meter distance rule, nearly meaning the end of Grapperhaus' political carreer. https://www.ad.nl/politiek/grapperhaus-biedt-alsnog-excuses-... Coincidence?

Another example is this documentary from Zembla: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=DYUV9mF95Os, in which Thierry Baudet (another Dutch politician) is being accused of being under Russian influence and deemed a security risk. Although I absolutely disagree with the policial course and visions of Baudet, it does raise the question if members of the parliament should not be better protected against an organisation that is invisible, unsupervised and unbalanced and thus can not be held accountable for their actions. This seemingly increasing trend towards a conflict of interests between members of the parliament (who can and are held accountable themselves!) and intelligence organizations is very concerning in a time where everyone's lives are digitally accessible.

Although this is all unproven, it is an interesting detail that Thierry Baudets political party has its roots in the "pirate party" who's main political agenda was to put a brake on governmental privacy violations and "big data". It could be that whereas the pirate party did not gain much support politically, Baudets charisma is actually attracting voters and is deemed a security risk again. First being accused of being pro-Russia, recently he is portraited as a Nazi in the media. Haha, noone seems to see how strange and opposing these accusations actually are apparently. :D Coincidence?

From personal experience (and similar media stories): These are the most disgusting people I've ever encountered, lying, smearing, manipulating, seeding and wielding their dual standards like the sword of justice. They hold views that are the almost exact opposite of those held by scientists, that favour progress, openness and the truth. https://joop.bnnvara.nl/nieuws/aivd-intimideert-wetenschappe...
https://www.parool.nl/columns-opinie/de-aivd-infiltreert-mee...

Anyway...people wonder why chemistry studies are such an unpopular choice for students nowadays. Mark my words...a total fireworks ban will follow as well. Reason? You can bet these pathological control-freaks from law enforcement have sleepless nights about the fact that a total ban on on chlorates and perchlorates is not possible yet. Why? Because legal fireworks still contain these oxidizers, so they are hard to forbid completely and in their minds comprises an unacceptable security risk.

[Edited on 15-1-2021 by nitro-genes]
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mackolol
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 08:48


That's why I'm going to make myself a permission or license, because it's the only way to fully play with chemistry.
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 10:28


Guess I'll stockpile some more, really annoying because I don't want to store a whole bunch of SA.
Especially since when banned it could cause legal difficulties, certainly when stocking many liters.

Speaking of which; any suggestions for long time storage ?
HDPE bottles seem to hold for some years but not quite permanent.
Its often the cap that gives in, I also noticed a slight discoloration.
I recently obtained quite a few Scott duran bottles in various sizes but they are relatively expensive when all they do is stand on a shelf for years.

Also, I agree with you nitro-genes.
The one thing that we need is checks and balances on government control not on citizens, slowly but steadily we are moving to a total nanny state, giving away one more piece of freedom every day.

"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."


[Edited on 15-1-2021 by Belowzero]
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 11:03


It is a bit infuriating that all this happens by the method of a thousand gradual restrictions by politicians who want to signal that they're "doing something". They take this easier route rather than coming up with a thought-through policy that would yield actual results.

It is just a question of time until all access we have now goes down the drain. It is "cottage industrial" chemistry that interests me the most for that reason; a basic electrochemical cell, a steel retort and a few other devices built from difficult to restrict components, and plenty of useful reagents can be made from difficult to restrict base chemicals.
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macckone
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 11:56


It isn't the end of home chemistry.
It just moves the goal posts.

This isn't exactly news. There was another post about it month ago.
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 12:56


Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
It isn't the end of home chemistry.
It just moves the goal posts.

This isn't exactly news. There was another post about it month ago.


Exactly the reason I am working on trying to scale the contact process down to a benchtop level.
I think it was more of a general remark, since this is a downward spiral and is certainly not the last chemical that will be banned.
Those goal posts will move further , thats for sure.

[Edited on 15-1-2021 by Belowzero]
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clearly_not_atara
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 15:01


Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  
for a scientist it is "Publish or Perish" and for policy makers it is "make new rules or perish".
This explains a lot of dumb rules that have been passed in the last decade



[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 16:17


Quote: Originally posted by NaK  
Just a heads up:
*Nitromethane > 16%
*Sulfuric acid > 15%

Nitric acid > 3% (not new)


will be banned from sale to private individuals within the EU in february.


I am extremely saddened for european amateur chemists for this.
Will you still be able to buy 32-37% sulfuric acid solution for automotive batteries? Concentrating H2SO4 by boiling the solution is one of the most unpleasant processes I have ever had to perform, but it works and allows me to continue to have access to this essential reagent in chemical practice.

I read the previous threads about these new regulations that will take effect. It seems that it will be possible to obtain a license or something that would allow not to suffer from these restrictions, am I right?

Unfortunately, I see no signs of improvement. As the poet Heinrich Heine said, "Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen". Those that prevent us from having access to such universally useful reagents, even if no accusations fall on us, will one day prevent us from discussing their properties and how to synthesize them. It's only a matter of time.
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NaK
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 16:53


Nope we won't. If it's enforced and the previous directive was then the highest concentration will be 15%.

It will be like in the GDR: if you want to get something you have to know someone. If you know a car mechanic you can get 40% sulfuric acid!! Just imagine the feeling of finally holding 40% sulfuric acid in your shivering hands. It will be amazing!
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 17:01


Here is their bucket list. Every 5 years they will ban some of these compounds:

Hexamine
Acetone
Potassium nitrate
Sodium nitrate
Calcium nitrate
Calcium ammonium nitrate
Magnesium, powders
Magnesium nitrate hexahydrate
Aluminium, powders

I will here and now bet that the next ban will be either acetone or the nitrates.

I'm setting a reminder for 5 years

[Edited on 16-1-2021 by NaK]
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macckone
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 19:27


Hexamine fuel tablets are being replaced already.
Acetone - heat calcium acetate or oxidize isopropyl alcohol
Nitrates are already restricted
Magnesium and aluminum are easy to powder.

The nitrate restriction is easy to get around electricity + air.
Any fetrilizer can be extracted.

We already have numerous methods of getting sulfuric acid.
Concentrating it from 15% to 30% is easier than to 80%.
And the final 98% is even harder. But the did it in the 1500s.

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[*] posted on 16-1-2021 at 03:48


In some countries of the EU it will be possible to obtain a license for using H2SO4 or HNO3 at higher concentrations, but this also is limited. HNO3 can now be licensed up to any concentration, after Feb. 1, 2021 this will be limited to 10% by weight. H2SO4 will be limited to 40% by weight.

So, without license: 3% and 15%, with license: 10% and 40%. Higher concentrations are not allowed for private persons, not at all!

I personally think that this restriction on H2SO4 is much worse than the other restrictions we already have. H2SO4 really is a basic chemical, needed for many experiments, much more so than any of the other forbidden ones. E.g. the fact that I cannot obtain KClO4 and NaClO4 is not really bad (unless you do pyrotechnics), other perchlorates are still available, albeit at much higher price. But still affordable in quantities useful for doing experiments with nice transition metal complexes and that kind of things. For H2SO4, however, I see no easy replacement. Having no access to that will really limit what you can do. The still available HCl, HClO4 and H3PO4 are no replacement for the versatile H2SO4!




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Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
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NaK
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[*] posted on 16-1-2021 at 06:10


It all depends on if you're willing to break the law I guess. There are a lot of people here who have no problem with that, for them it will be significantly harder. For everyone else chemistry will be very limited to almost impossible.
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[*] posted on 16-1-2021 at 07:09


There will be suppliers for sulfuric acid in the grey market, for sure. If a price is paid, you know very well you can get your hands on pretty much anything you desire.

All of the restricted stuff can be purchased as a company, and in most EU countries it is actually trivial to establish one. For the most simple cases, it only needs filing a singe application that costs less than 100€ and you get the business number in few days. If not personally, someone can make a covert business out of it by purchasing large amounts of stuff and selling them under the counter. They register the sales, yes, but if you even attempt to keep low profile, it will be very difficult to tell where it has ended to. To be honest, when I heard about this, I floated a thought about this myself. For the foreseeable future, I can get a 25L canister of 98% SA to my doorstep with one phone call in a day or two. Oh, well, make it an IBC straight away, the price per L just dropped by 70%.

It just makes things more complicated for the amateur, and for the most part, illegal. Sadly, I have always thought that practicing chemistry requires breaking many restrictions, for example distillation of alcohol is basically illegal in every developed country, it doesn't count if you intend to consume it or use it as a solvent.

These restrictions mostly keep the lower deciles of imbeciles and idiots out of the picture, and reduce the amount of acid attacks and other subhuman crap that is happening and I respect the restriction for that part, but I do very strongly oppose that even with a license you are not able to buy more than dilute acid. This has a potential to kill off the rest of the amateur chemists.

Worst part is, it makes ordinary people criminals, and allows the judicial machine to grind them to pieces and possibly cause major issues in legitimate society. Places where any sort of criminal record is an issue. The case is similar to cannabis: it has been long shown to be less harmful than alcohol, but touch it, and you'll get record that prevents employing into many places for good. And, prepare for surprise visits from the police, once something hits the news somewhere, because your name just came up from a list of known people that have handled "precursors", hence being potential threats.

Sadly, for the decade, I've witnessed a clear pattern on EU banning basically everything it can. At first EU only loosened national restrictions which I was very happy, but then it took 180 turn and all of a sudden ordinary stuff I thought was self-evident, got under total ban.

Oh, btw, just to make things even more totalitarian, EU has chased anti-encryption laws since 2017. They want access to all citizen's data and make it illegal to encrypt anything without a back-door.

I've really thought of eventually moving into some third world country, like China, Russia, Libya, North Korea or something like that. They might have ban on everything as well, but they'll look away if you pay the bribe.

[Edited on 16-1-2021 by Fyndium]
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[*] posted on 16-1-2021 at 08:39


Lead battery electrolyte is ~35% H2SO4, wonder how that will be managed. I can buy it at any gas station right now.



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[*] posted on 16-1-2021 at 09:31


Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
Lead battery electrolyte is ~35% H2SO4, wonder how that will be managed. I can buy it at any gas station right now.


Then I would stock up because they likely won't restock. You will then have to take your batteries to a car mechanic who will do it for you
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[*] posted on 16-1-2021 at 09:58


Quote: Originally posted by NaK  
Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
Lead battery electrolyte is ~35% H2SO4, wonder how that will be managed. I can buy it at any gas station right now.


Then I would stock up because they likely won't restock. You will then have to take your batteries to a car mechanic who will do it for you


So car mechanics will have to get the permits.

Well I have about 4l of 96%, It will suffice for a while. I guess I'll deal with this problem when I run out, no where to stockpile liters of acid.

It sucks. Idiots and terrorists ruining it for me since terrorists and idiots. :/




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[*] posted on 16-1-2021 at 11:36


Car mechanics usually work as a business, and the ban does not apply to businesses. They can still buy any strength, any amount.
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[*] posted on 16-1-2021 at 12:22


I have worked in garages on and off for 20 years and a couple of my closest friends are qualified mechanics.... Not one of them has ever used sulfuric acid, batteries are topped up with de-ionised water.

Many modern batteries are sealed and maintenance free these days with a life expectancy of about 5 years..... There are so many electrical systems on a new car that it is standard practice to fit a brand new battery and be done with it.



/CJ




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[*] posted on 17-1-2021 at 04:27


There are businesses that specialize in battery business. The ones I've visited, had actually an IBC containers of battery acid hanging around, and actually, because of the very low price (50c a liter) as asked, I went there with a friend to inquire if I could buy some in bulk to my own canisters. The business owner just said, yeah, but he wants a business number because some idiots were using the acid to make energetics.

Sulfuric acid is used in very large array of things, including metal treatment, anodizing, as a synthesis feedstock in various business and industry levels, cleaning agent, electrolyte, etc.

Tech may change, but sulfuric acid will likely remain to the foreseeable future.
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