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Author: Subject: LL8 from Dr. Liptakov
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[*] posted on 8-4-2024 at 12:34


Military NC it may (or may not) contain antidetonation additing. Is necessary (for first attempts) do it itself pure NC 13N+. High quality a very fine powder AP is condition also. Nitrocelite is of course
alternative primary - secondary material. His detonation pressure is on edge of sensitivity of ETN. But repeatedly works it in my conditions...:cool:




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[*] posted on 8-4-2024 at 15:53


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests  


On aliexpress they also sell bundles of 7x8x50mm bodies with one end sealed. :)


Link ?


I am so sorry. I didn't notice your question. Here is the link where you can get the 8mmODx7mmIDx50mm tubes:

50 Pieces SS304 Material Temperature Sensor One End Closed

If you want a very long tube for an extra powerful detonator here is a where you can get 100 or 200mm versions

Link to long cap

I hope those links work. They might not be available in your country.
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[*] posted on 8-4-2024 at 22:37


Nice cavity. And cheap cavity. Thanks for link. Stainless steel is very solid. But for testing brisantion and complette energy is thick the bottom disadvantage. Deep drawing cavity has thick bottom. EM material in cavity must first overcome
the thick bottom. It can be thick 1mm or more. Therefore final crater (in the lead or normal steel) will halfed, maybe still less. At perpedicular testing. Hundreds of experiments have confirmed that the highest performance comes from a cavity that has no bottom.. Plus, open output side provide possibility for easy delaboration in cause failning of the device. The closed bottom is suitable for field conditions and for main charges larger than 50g.
For testing small main charges, for example 10g - 20g, the thick bottom is a disadvantage and can cause the main charge to fail....:cool:




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[*] posted on 9-4-2024 at 06:59


There was an automotive supply for a ss transmission line block. Or radiator plug. It was approximately 7mm and about 2 inches long. Had a perfectly flat bottom.
With a punch, you concave the bottom for A attractive capsule. But I’m sure it would be cost prohibitive unless you could find bulk online..

LL:
Thank you for the response, on the smokeless powder. That does clarify a couple things.

I will attempt to another go at it with some bull’s-eye, and mill fine AP possibly added dichromate for catalyst.. . In your procedure or you getting these two items dried on a hot plate or was the hot plate just for the mixing ? if that’s the case, then more acetone was required? I started off with a NC lacquer and combine that with powder 200mesh AP of which was wetted with acetone, combined and stirred, then rolled into a putty ball and granulated..

[Edited on 9-4-2024 by pjig]
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[*] posted on 9-4-2024 at 14:49


Now i have a question but it is out of topic but anyway. What is the most storage, long term, stable primary/secondary ? What would fit best for long storage caps with ss tubes (except TNT and RDX). I guess ETN is not that much storage stable, PETN is more stable than ETN but still not as much as TNT/RDX. Ammonium picrate i guess is not suitable for metal cavity. Maybe tetrazole nitrate ? Maybe aminonitroguanidine ? Are complex salts long term storage stable ? like CHP ?

[Edited on 9-4-2024 by underground]
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[*] posted on 9-4-2024 at 21:18


I have found azide and petn to be the holy grail of storage cap combinations.(military standard )=Years of predictable storage. No loss of power and quality .L ead azide is standard . Petn is very stabile and storable once cleaned up. Not sure why agn3 is so feared . If dextrinated , is very fine In crystal size and static safe for most part. Just my 2cents
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[*] posted on 10-4-2024 at 03:31


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Nice cavity. And cheap cavity. Thanks for link. Stainless steel is very solid. But for testing brisantion and complette energy is thick the bottom disadvantage. Deep drawing cavity has thick bottom. EM material in cavity must first overcome
the thick bottom. It can be thick 1mm or more. Therefore final crater (in the lead or normal steel) will halfed, maybe still less. At perpedicular testing. Hundreds of experiments have confirmed that the highest performance comes from a cavity that has no bottom.. Plus, open output side provide possibility for easy delaboration in cause failning of the device. The closed bottom is suitable for field conditions and for main charges larger than 50g.
For testing small main charges, for example 10g - 20g, the thick bottom is a disadvantage and can cause the main charge to fail....:cool:


so even 1mm thickness can cause problems... :\ hmm this an issue since I don't know of any other tube that is less than 1mm in thickness. The side walls are OK but it is the bottom you have an issue with? Like I said, even looking for aluminum tubes (which professional detonators are made of) they are also 1mm in thickness. Granted I do need to plug the bottom but I have seen people wrap it with aluminum foil to hold in the ETN while they melt cast it, and when it solidifes it is a solid plug.

My tests with simple handpressed ETN were still very good despite this. But I think I can make it easier by filing off some of the bottom with a file or an electric tool. It's tedious since I bought many, many of them, but if you say the bottom is too thick, then I'll see if I can remove 0.5mm from the bottom without uncovering it. That should improve performance.

[Edited on 10-4-2024 by ManyInterests]
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[*] posted on 10-4-2024 at 07:13


Your stainless steel is the best cavities for filling of any EM. If you use good pressed ETN, without bottom, you will see incredible holes in steel plates. Casting is an unnecessary and dangerous operation. You won't gain anything from it. None of my detonators are cast. And look at the beginning of the thread for exact holes from 0.3g ETN. Or from else EM.....:cool:



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[*] posted on 10-4-2024 at 10:01


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Your stainless steel is the best cavities for filling of any EM. If you use good pressed ETN, without bottom, you will see incredible holes in steel plates. Casting is an unnecessary and dangerous operation. You won't gain anything from it. None of my detonators are cast. And look at the beginning of the thread for exact holes from 0.3g ETN. Or from else EM.....:cool:


So hypothetically. If I cut off the bottom of the tube, and then closed it with a bit of tape to prevent the powder from falling out the end, that will sufficient?

You've seen the pictures of my results with 0.5g of hand pressed ETN. I've melt-casted ETN into tubes several times before without issue. I take a lot of care to prevent any issues. I heat the water to only 70C (less will be necessary since the melting point is 60C) and after 7 inches I very carefully remove it from the water and place it into a holding spot for at least 30 minutes for it to fully solidify.

How will melt-casting not have an effect? My issue previously was that I hard-pressed the initiating mixture. I think my latest test showed a significant improvement. I am sure if I use melt-cast ETN (as you recommended) mixed with the NHN with only mild tamping I will have the detonator I am looking for.
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[*] posted on 10-4-2024 at 22:12


Why wait 30 minutes when you can have an exit segment in the cavity pressed in 30 seconds. You're just adding work. As you rightly judge, paper tape is enough. And a small vise. It's 60x faster and safer than casting. // Let's keep things as simple as possible. But not simpler // (Albert Einstein). Perhaps there was a misunderstanding in the translation. Yes, cast and then crushed ETN must be used for all operations. Per grain 1x1 mm. With a tolerance of 0.5 mm - 2 mm.
In other words, cast grain....:cool:




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[*] posted on 11-4-2024 at 09:36


By cast grain do you mean ETN that's been cast, then broken up into grains? That should form dense, free-flowing grains similar to gunpowder.



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[*] posted on 11-4-2024 at 23:36


OK so I want to make sure I understood everything:

Don't melt-cast the ETN inside the container. Do it outside and grind it back up. Dug Boomfax has a video showing that and I intend to follow it on melt-casting a few grams of ETN at a time using his method. I have some PETN also, and melt-cast ETN/PETN together can form an extremely brisant mixture that would make for a good detonator charge? But I'll work with the ETN.

Anyway, just melt-cast the ETN then crush it back up. The safest way to do this is to put it on a hot water bath at no more than 60-65C and away from any heat source so it is in the process of cooling down when the ETN is melt-casting. I remember putting in a few grains of ETN on aluminum foil under a jet-lighter and it detonated. Thankfully it was only a grain so I got a loud pop and nothing else. After that load it and hand press it as usual. I was told that ETN that has been processed this way is no more sensitive to friction and pressure than regular powder ETN. Am I right here? I think with the more compressed melt-cast ETN I can probably fit in 1g into the cap body and still have room for a 0.3g of ETN/NHN mix

But for the detonator body: I've tried plastic and I've tried paper straws (wrapped in electric tape to waterproof) and maybe it is because of overpressing the mixture, but I just didn't find them effective. When I tried my first metal cap, the results were far better even with the less than optimal construction methods I used initially. I can probably file away part of the bottom of the 1mm steel caps I use, but I would rather have a bottomrather these caps with a bottom than without.
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[*] posted on 12-4-2024 at 05:20


Do whatever you want, but the open end of the tube gives the best results. When set vertically.....:cool:



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[*] posted on 12-4-2024 at 05:53


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Do whatever you want, but the open end of the tube gives the best results. When set vertically.....:cool:


A very little bottom just to stop things from falling out. :)

Edit: I do also want it to set off a few small charges to see if they work. One small 40 or 50g ammonium picrate charge and maybe a 9:1 chlorate/vaseline cheddite charge.

[Edited on 12-4-2024 by ManyInterests]
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[*] posted on 14-4-2024 at 15:47


LL
I have to ask if you have attempted a former to concave the bottoms of your compacted foil bases (on caps) attempting a commercial looking / functioning wave shaping cap. ?

In past I had some luck with short 22 cal empty dented/ concaved in the center to create the wave shaping effect. Glued into an aluminum tube .
Another item I found was some copper cups that fit perfect in a 6mm Al tube. Super Glued in place , A punch was used to indent and concave the base to create a wave shaper. Very close performance to commercial products. More a valuable asset for shape charge initiation.

[Edited on 14-4-2024 by pjig]

[Edited on 14-4-2024 by pjig]

[Edited on 15-4-2024 by pjig]
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[*] posted on 15-4-2024 at 05:09


Yes, but at inner diameter 6 mm is effect Misnay-Schardin minimal. A lot commerce tubes has flat bottom only. Is not serious reason use specials tools for create concave bottom....:cool:



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[*] posted on 15-4-2024 at 07:22


Yes , agreed . I assume mostly in a shape charge application it would benefit. Most caps I’ve ever delt with that where commercial all had indents in the base’s
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[*] posted on 17-4-2024 at 19:45


Quote: Originally posted by pjig  
Yes , agreed . I assume mostly in a shape charge application it would benefit. Most caps I’ve ever delt with that where commercial all had indents in the base’s


Not sure I have ever seen one with an indent in the base. We talking about from major companies?
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[*] posted on 18-4-2024 at 20:37


All The commercial caps I’ve ever used were concave on the base . Is there a commercial cap with out in the US?
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[*] posted on 20-4-2024 at 08:31


Just out of curiousity, I decided to run some calculations with compositions from this thread, using ProPEP 3. If you find thermodynamics boring, feel free to ignore me.

For easy comparison I list ideal specific impulse at shifting equilibrium. More information about the program and how to read output can be found here: http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/th_prope.html#output

Nitrocelite: 202.5 s - NC used in calculation is 13.45% N.
Nitrocelite - original.png - 270kB
Attachment: Nitrocelite - original.txt (2kB)
This file has been downloaded 39 times

Nitrocelite with more common NC: 205 s - showing that ordinary ~12% nitrocellulose works in propellant as well as highly nitrated 13+% one.
Attachment: Nitrocelite - 12.6N.txt (2kB)
This file has been downloaded 42 times

Nitrocelite with 5% Al: 229.6 s - as always, impulse would be increased only if Al will burn in chamber, not afterwards as sparks.
Attachment: Nitrocelite - 12.6N +5 Al.txt (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 37 times

Lithex: 226.1 s - required adding hexamine to a list of compounds, nice fact: there's no solid products in exhaust, despite metal-containing oxydizer.
Attachment: Lithex.txt (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 39 times

Brightelite: 247.9 s - as expected, AP+hexamine is very good propellant (may I say "impulsive")
Attachment: Brightelite.txt (4kB)
This file has been downloaded 51 times

Conclusion: Nitrocelite is very interesting as a propellant. Since preparation invovles forming a homogenous paste with acetone, it can be formed into single grain instead of making granules.
Nitrocellulose, either bought or prepared, is much more accessible than usual fuels/binders for APCP, like HTPB or high quality epoxy. And evaporating acetone is easier than properly curing epoxy.

Since oxygen balance of original nitrocelite (80/20) is +18,4, hence not ideal, I ran calculations for 0 OB mixture (51.2/48.8), then slightly positive and slightly negative OB, and finally for 50/50 mixture.

0 OB: 247.6 s
+0.544 OB: 246.9 s
-0.153 OB: 247.7 s
50/50 mix: 248.3 s (!)

Attachment: Nitrocelite - 0 OB.txt (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 45 times

Attachment: Nitrocelite - +0.544 OB.txt (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 42 times

Attachment: Nitrocelite - -0.153 OB.txt (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 43 times

Attachment: Nitrocelite 50-50.txt (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 42 times

Of course, ideal proportion for maximum ISP is yet to be determined, but isn't it pretty that 1/1 mixture works well? And calculated specific impulse is comparable to APCP. For example, according to Nakka's website, popular "Cherry Limeade" APCP gives 225 s delivered ISP (245.2 s calculated).
Attachment: Cherry Limeade.txt (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 40 times

It should be said that PROPEP is a thermochemical code. It doesn't calculate burn rate, can't say whether something will burn at all and will not warn about dangerously high "pressure exponent" (read as "propensity to CATO"). So if anyone wants to try burning nitrocelite or brightelite in a motor, even small test motor, they should be very careful.

Edit: it appears that maximum ISP is 249 s at 45/55 AP/NC.

Attachment: Nitrocelite - 45-55.txt (3kB)
This file has been downloaded 45 times

[Edited on 20-4-2024 by EF2000]




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[*] posted on 20-4-2024 at 08:51


Note that NC is not good for propellant as a curing agent since when acetone evapotates many tiny wholes will be created from the evaporated acetone and it will ruin your burning rate, most likely it will end up with CATO, this is the reason why they use curing agents, then remove the air pockets in vacume.

Edit: How sensitive is nitrocelite ?

[Edited on 20-4-2024 by underground]
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[*] posted on 20-4-2024 at 11:46


Incredible work on Nitrocelite theme....Thanks....But I am afraid that it will CATO....Maybe for ID max. 10 mm it will works....Interestling countig...:cool:



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[*] posted on 20-4-2024 at 11:47


Quote: Originally posted by underground  

Edit: How sensitive is nitrocelite ?

With 80/20 ratio and 13+%N nitrocellulose:
Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Sensitivity on anvil is medium, similarly as safety matches.

With 45/55 ratio and ~12+%N NC, I guess, it will be lower.

[Edited on 20-4-2024 by EF2000]




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[*] posted on 20-4-2024 at 20:55


It seems amazing that military is able to utilize Rdx and other highly energetic materials in propellants( rockets and guns) and not get a detonation. Certain modifiers will be required, but it can be done under right conditions.

Well on the note of composite materials….. cast nitrocelite may have a high destiny, and nice VOD v.s. Granular material packet in cartridges. Probably in the 5k+ range
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[*] posted on 21-4-2024 at 09:58


Since there was an attempt to test a the detonator on lead in another thread, I'm attaching some lessons learned here. In Fig. 1 we see
basic assembly for the experiment. Detonator is create from cavity 8/6 50 mm structural steel. With 300 mg ETN pressed on 30 Kg. And also the filament strung on the through mandrel, which is used in the final pressing of the detonator. As a secondary target was used also construction steel 2mm of thickess, also used repeatedly in older else attepts. Basic brick from casted Lead is in role of main target.
1.1.jpg - 677kB



On fig. 2 and 3 is assemble ready to attempt. Lesson learned: before attempting it is important to take a picture of the whole assembly before firing. Because the viewer has no idea what the detonator looks like and its location.
2.jpg - 701kB 3.jpg - 663kB



On Fig. 4 you can see damage, which cause detonator on both targets. And also bigger chip from detonator itself. On inside chip of detonator is see copper surface, which was created from detonation of CHP. Steel of 1 mm thickess is after blow only 0,5 mm.
4.jpg - 700kB



Fig.5 and Fig 6:... Here we can see huge energy, which comes out from detonator on perpendicular bottom. On the contrary, the energy that is discharged into the lead is almost negligible. Lesson learned: Testing detonators so-called flat is a waste of time and material. And it does not bring a clear, rather almost no result to the researcher.

5.jpg - 848kB 6.jpg - 1.3MB


Fig.7......Is repeatedly see detonation pressure of ETN in perpendicular direction. Which damaged also secondary steel on profile 2 mm. Contrary, on the lead brick we can see only a deeper scratch. However, lead can have the advantage of capturing the distribution of energy that rises from approximately the middle of the detonator to its exit end. Which was supported by a steel profile. Arises almost photography stread of energy of detonation.

7.jpg - 1.1MB

Filling of detonator how was sayed, output segment 300 mg ETN/30 Kg, medium segment 0,1 ETN + 0,1 CHP /1 Kg, starting segment 0,3 CHP / 1 Kg pressed. Plug created from classic grain BP cca 0,1 g pressed on 5 Kg. Bridge wire supply 12V / 2 A............:cool:




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