Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1    3
Author: Subject: NHN based improved primary composition
papaya
National Hazard
****




Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

biggrin.gif posted on 31-3-2023 at 13:04
NHN based improved primary composition


I want to share my findings upon an interesting primary composition that
I started to develop a year and a half ago, and which was in my opinion a success!
It was tested over and over again, shows good stability and performance, is not very
sensitive to mechanical stimuly, while can easily be set off from the action of flame
even without strong confinement (large diqmeter plastic straw).

composition:
Nickel hydrazine nitrate 600mg
Sodium chlorate 400mg
Hard soap 20mg (plasticizer and fuel)

exact quantities are important!

preparation:
hard soap is scratched off from the soap bar until exact weight of it is collected, then is
mixed in dry state with NHN powder. Next a saturated solution of NaCLO3 is prepared in water
and the powder is soaked with it. Slurry is stirred until all soap is gone - a gel like substance will
form which is left to dry in plastic container at 50C. the cake is scrapped off without much fear,
pulverized carefully and stored.

properties: better version of NHN.. no extreme sensitivity, can be set off with hammer strong strike, but hardly by friction. still better to try yourself .Unlimited storage life tested for 1 year.

usage:
No strong metalic casings are neccesarry . Plastic staws + tape to close the hole.
But internal diameter must be at least 7mm, better 8mm. Hand loading and hand pressing.
Very brizant action, 1g is enough to fire AN based secondaries. recommended dosage 1g.

video report:

https://tube.tchncs.de/w/qoBowqADXsqM72cxcr35Ww
View user's profile View All Posts By User
B(a)P
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1122
Registered: 29-9-2019
Member Is Offline

Mood: Festive

[*] posted on 31-3-2023 at 15:25


Any issues with it being hygroscopic? Have you tried with potassium chlorate or perchlorate? Thanks for sharing very interesting.
You can use the composition in your firing train or in the bath :-)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
National Hazard
****




Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 31-3-2023 at 15:56


It is maybe as hygroscopic as the sodium chlorate itself, not more, first batches I've made were just air dried without any heating, and were just as fine. When stored in a plastac container for a year no noticeable changes were observed like cakeing or wetness, so I assume it has no problems with water under normal conditions. I've tried with potassium chlorate even before sodium, and it already showed some improvements which gave me the idea to experiment with sodium chlorate in solution -evaporation thing. potassium one was inconsistent - sometimes not working, but the exact reasons was never investigated - i think larger particle size of kclo3 is one possibility since no ball mill is used. Perchlorates are open area since I was too lazy and the magic powder already worked... so someone can try them. I've tried different ratios and the one presented here is the most brizant one. Aoso I have some untested theories why these type of modification works - you see NHN is not a simple stuff, it is inorganic polymer (why it is insoluble?) linked via hydrazine bridges and nitrate iones hanging around polymer chains neutralizing charge. So maybe it is more like ion exchange resin ??, and by soaking in chlorate solution we just exchange some part of nitrate with chlorate on the surface sites of NHN particles.. I Dont know, it must be tested some day - if just washing NHN with chlorate solution and then again rinsing by fresh water can change its properties. More questions than answers, but its only primary that i now consider for anything!
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Herr Haber
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1236
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 31-3-2023 at 18:33


Chlorate is probably being helpful by it's low decomposition temperature just as it is in 80/20 mercury fulminate / potassium chlorate since NHN is harder to ignite than many other primaries.
Perchlorate has a much higher decomposition temperature so it might not help as much.

Loved the soap idea :)




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
National Hazard
****




Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 1-4-2023 at 12:21


Thanks for interest, soap is added since it acts like water soluble "oil" go desensitize a bit, and to consume some oxigen.In the presence of a salt like naclo3 in this instance most of it salts out and the composition gets a bit thicker. Unfortunately adding more soap to make it oxygen balanced does more harm, sometimes burning like a rocket motor! As of mechanism of action I am not sure as I said, also it burns differently in open air compared to NHN - without visible bright flash and I think more aggressive(few mg only testsd). I wouldn't rule out perchlorates, especially maybe ammonium perchlorate worth testing. Chlorates are usually much more accessible though, which makes it a noteworthy primary.

[Edited on 1-4-2023 by papaya]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
ManyInterests
National Hazard
****




Posts: 846
Registered: 19-5-2019
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 2-4-2023 at 08:51


I am an NHN guy and I find this quite interesting. I still have some NHN that I am keeping for further testing with ETN (I learned that plastic bodies don't work for good detonation of melt-cast ETN with NHN. I made a few more caps out of brass shell casings and stainless steel for further tests. The stainless steel caps are 1 gram melt-cast ETN, 0.3 grams of hand pressed ETN, and 0.5 grams of NHN).

B(a)P asked if potassium chlorate would work. I am actually interested in trying that out since I will be making potassium chlorate in the next month.

I did hear from others that aluminum powder also works as a good fuel. The actually ratio of NHN to aluminum powder is a trade secret, but from what they told me, when mixed at the correct ratio the NHN/al powder can detonate just about anything. This is something I plan on doing in the near future as well. If I can make caps out of a pure mono-material that are as powerful as #10 caps it would be great.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
National Hazard
****




Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 2-4-2023 at 14:05


I think kclo3 most likely can be made to work, probably grinding chlorate as fine as possible then mixing with NHN, then wetting mixture with few drops of water to dissolve just a little bit of material and dry to cryslize it on whatever surfaces it wants to may do the trick. the nhn/chlorate ratio is 60/40 and internal diameter something like 8mm is needed, testing with 3-4mm almost always makes good rocket motors. About NHN/Al mixture - tried it just once with something like 10% aluminium and it didn't work, I felt that it even decreased burning speed, so not continued, I don't believe much into that. The intristic problem of pure NHN that i foun is that even under strong metal confinement when it apparently goes DDT - not the whole material reacts. If tested against solid metallic target theres always a fine pale violet colored dusting can be observed on that surface and that is unreacted nhn! with chlorate mixture no such indications were observed. But I think one should test on his own and get personal impression instead of many tales.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Raid
Hazard to Everyone
***




Posts: 201
Registered: 14-11-2022
Location: N/A
Member Is Offline

Mood: School

[*] posted on 2-4-2023 at 14:05


I have seen a patent saying something similar to this. The patent indicates the use of Potassium Chlorate in the ratio of 7:3 NHN/Chlorate. It is supposed to give it a better oxygen balance and give it less friction sensitivity.

I have tried it and it seems to work well.




View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
National Hazard
****




Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 2-4-2023 at 14:11


less friction sensitivity must be a joke, since incorporating even inert but mechanicaly HARD materials always increases sensitivity. But I would like to see that patent, if you still have it.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Raid
Hazard to Everyone
***




Posts: 201
Registered: 14-11-2022
Location: N/A
Member Is Offline

Mood: School

[*] posted on 2-4-2023 at 14:28


i believe its on my phone, I'll have to upload it later.



View user's profile View All Posts By User
Herr Haber
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1236
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-4-2023 at 18:24


Adding a fuel such as Al to NHN seems pretty pointless.

You want something that will help the ddt so KClO3 in ratios to be determined seems the obvious choice.
Sodium chlorate is hygroscopic. Perchlorates have a much higher decomposition temperature. Let's rule them out.
Potassium chlorate decomposition temperature is low and exothermic therefore self sustaining. It has been used with mercury fulminate by the industry for decades to solve a similar if not identical problem.

What bothers me with your idea is that you use water. Granted, with the soap it's brilliant specially as a desensitizer. But your finely ground chlorate will then recrystallize in inconsistent crystal size which "ruins" something that was quite elegant :(

All the water, alcohol, acetone soluble binders that I can think of would get you a hard composition that would probably be more friction sensitive but at the same time would be ideal to make pellets in paper drinking straws.




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
National Hazard
****




Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 2-4-2023 at 23:37


Well I used water with sodium chlorate because I wanted the extra benefit of not hand-grinding chlorate separately - because without some measures you cannot guarantee simillar particle size every time and also it is a hassle . If small quantity of water is used just enough to dissolve all chlorate it will soak completely and make a rather thick paste, when the paste is spread in a thin layer it will lose water quick + the presence of flour likd nhn + gelatinous soap all this don't allow the big crystal size. Yes, it is not talcum powder at the end, but no mm sized crystals also, table salt texture in the worst case (which is still bad). But anyone can adotp this to his own technology and equipment - if you want to just grind and mix powders - do it and report back. About the roles chlorates and possible use of perchlorate - I'm not THAT sure the reason is chlorates' low decomposition temperature. pure NHN alone is extremely easy to set on fire itself, perhaps nhn has lower decomposition temperature than chlorate. maybe it is the extreme burning rate-pressure dependence of all chlorate based compositions.. maybe it is some initial chemical reaction between both in water where I believe some ion exchange of nitrate with chlorate can exist.. maybe it just wants to be OB positive in order to work.. It needs separate investigation on itself.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Raid
Hazard to Everyone
***




Posts: 201
Registered: 14-11-2022
Location: N/A
Member Is Offline

Mood: School

[*] posted on 3-4-2023 at 04:34


Okay, i found the patent and I uploaded it to transfer.sh
The part that talks about the chlorate addition to the NHN is at the bottom.

https://transfer.sh/dpLXRW/nhn1.pdf




View user's profile View All Posts By User
Herr Haber
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1236
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 3-4-2023 at 08:48


All good points. And if it works for you reliably, well, the objective is reached.
I havent felt the need to experiment with NHN mixtures but I've read quite a few reports of people having trouble with it going ddt that are very similar to 100 years old reports on mercury fulminate cap compositions.

Back to water, my first idea would have been to substitute your soap by arabic gum or dextrin. You still need water but much less. The result will be hard, so it probably be more sensitive to friction and impact. Not good.
Thinking about it, I would be surprised if no one tried matcheads + NHN which would essentially be the same.

Whenever I have a silly idea I do a Google / Youtube search.
This is essentially how I found ScienceMadness.org some 10 years ago :D

A user had patented an idea that occured to me 10 years later about a compound that was 150 years old by then. Proof it was still worth researching and that I was on the right track !




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
National Hazard
****




Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 3-4-2023 at 10:29


Quote: Originally posted by Raid  
Okay, i found the patent and I uploaded it to transfer.sh
The part that talks about the chlorate addition to the NHN is at the bottom.

https://transfer.sh/dpLXRW/nhn1.pdf
Thanks again, but this is a research paper not a patent, which is even better - it gives more details and hopefully prevents this information from patenting. On the sensitivity figures they give - it seems 70/30 mixture is only twice as friction sensitive compared to pure NHN! Also decomposition temperature remains unchanged which means that the mixture is as chemicly stable as NHN itself(important for long storage life). Also it gives decomposition temperature for nhn about 210•C, which is less than for KCLO3, thus the thermal decomposition of KCLO3 is not the cause of sensitization in our case. Overall seems encouraging to me.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
National Hazard
****




Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 3-4-2023 at 10:37


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
All good points. And if it works for you reliably, well, the objective is reached.
I havent felt the need to experiment with NHN mixtures but I've read quite a few reports of people having trouble with it going ddt that are very similar to 100 years old reports on mercury fulminate cap compositions.

Back to water, my first idea would have been to substitute your soap by arabic gum or dextrin. You still need water but much less. The result will be hard, so it probably be more sensitive to friction and impact. Not good.
Thinking about it, I would be surprised if no one tried matcheads + NHN which would essentially be the same.

Whenever I have a silly idea I do a Google / Youtube search.
This is essentially how I found ScienceMadness.org some 10 years ago :D

A user had patented an idea that occured to me 10 years later about a compound that was 150 years old by then. Proof it was still worth researching and that I was on the right track !
. I've actually tried to use thickeners like guar or xanthan, cannot remember which one exactly, yes, it gives hard cake, but I managed to pulverize it and load into usual casing. Results were bad - it just burned with a forcefull flame and noise, but no ddt, seemingly lost all the porosity like getting dead pressed. But this was 1-2 attempts only, dont want to discourage anyone from trying.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Raid
Hazard to Everyone
***




Posts: 201
Registered: 14-11-2022
Location: N/A
Member Is Offline

Mood: School

[*] posted on 4-4-2023 at 13:29


My bad, I call papers and patents the same thing sometimes :)



View user's profile View All Posts By User
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1342
Registered: 2-9-2014
Location: Technion Haifa
Member Is Offline

Mood: cool.gif

[*] posted on 6-4-2023 at 23:01


If you want to create porosity, it is best to create granules, grain. Usually 1x1 mm for cavity filling. Proven mixtures for the formation of grains from NHN:
NHN + 3% styrofoam + solvent, slurry, sieve.
NHN + 5% nitrocellulose + acetone, slurry, sieve.
NHN + 20% ETN + acetone, slurry, sieve.
NHN + 5% Nitrocellulose + 15% ETN + acetone, slurry, sieve.




Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite (2024)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
National Hazard
****




Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 7-4-2023 at 11:35


Here is a bonus footage of initiation power of this mixture towards a small AN-based Al powder free charge: https://tube.tchncs.de/w/gpp46CspXun62MtLz5cao5
View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
National Hazard
****




Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 7-4-2023 at 11:43


Thwnks, Dr., but I like the consistency of final powder as it is,I cannot imagine how large grains will be compressed, or do you mean just a loose powder? thanks to small amount of soap this composition is easily compressible and then it holds itself inside the cavity, usually it proves good to strongly compress 80% of that powder and then on top of it the remainig 20% is lightly pressed and then fuse with plug inserted. No metal tubing is needed, no strong plugs, no ETN secondary addition - just plastic and thats it!
View user's profile View All Posts By User
specialactivitieSK
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 94
Registered: 21-10-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-4-2023 at 05:02


ETN w NHN https://youtu.be/gfRm3acDgrs
View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
National Hazard
****




Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 11-4-2023 at 14:52


Yeah, that's interesting for a secondary, I wonder how much nhn influenced the Performance of etn, maybe a bit due to density. But I doubt it can act as a primary on its own.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Raid
Hazard to Everyone
***




Posts: 201
Registered: 14-11-2022
Location: N/A
Member Is Offline

Mood: School

[*] posted on 19-4-2023 at 06:25


I did not know where to ask it, so i'll ask it in this thread.
Does anyone know of the effects of sulfate contamination in NHN?
Like what are the effects and does it decrease performance or just stop the NHN from working.

Also, what are some good prevention measures to stop or lower sulfate contamination.
One last thing, is there a way to rid sulfate contamination in already made NHN, I have tried washing it with lots of water but that does not seem to do much.

I have been having this problem when I tried to make bigger batches of NHN. The salt formed looks like NHN but is not energetic, It just kinda burns and forms carbon on continuous heating. Does anyone know how to stop this?

Other Note: If anyone finds any cheap hydrazine please contact me because I have been looking for soooo long.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
karolus28
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 51
Registered: 14-4-2019
Location: EU's Brazil
Member Is Offline

Mood: zgrzyt

[*] posted on 19-4-2023 at 08:17


Quote: Originally posted by Raid  

Also, what are some good prevention measures to stop or lower sulfate contamination.


make NHN from hydrazine dihydrochloride, just turn your hydrazine sulfate to hydrazine dihydrochloride N2H6SO4 + CaCl2 = N2H6Cl2 + CaSO4 (tho im not sure if sometimes hydrazine monochloride forms which is quite soluable, after filtering you might need to add HCl to turn it into dihydrochloride) and proceed along with this thread https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=15...




Hi, please read about exif data.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Raid
Hazard to Everyone
***




Posts: 201
Registered: 14-11-2022
Location: N/A
Member Is Offline

Mood: School

[*] posted on 19-4-2023 at 09:42


I don’t have any calcium chloride, could i just use HCL?
Also, should i just use water for the reaction medium to convert the hydrazine sulfate to the chloride?

[Edited on 19-4-2023 by Raid]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1    3

  Go To Top