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Achilles
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[*] posted on 30-10-2023 at 10:57
question about primaries


i am studying primaries explosives and in trying to find a good compromise between efficiency and cost. but ive came across to some issues? or maybe im just too ignorant..

at the very first i was making them with 0.2tatp and 0,8petn
but tatp is an awful choice..

is silver acetilyde a good choice? the VOD is low and i dont very understand the chemical difference between it and the double salt they both have a low VOD btw..


NHN seems powerful and stable but i heard people complaining about its explosive properties and i was wondering if it can be used or no..


third question is if you advice me any other primary
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[*] posted on 30-10-2023 at 13:19


I think you are confusing detonator and primary. What you describe in the second line of your post is some primary and secondary explosive. If you have put them together under some sort of confinement with a means to initiate them you have made a detonator.
Firstly, I would recommend checking out the science madness library and do some reading on energetic substances and you will find that some of these questions may be answered and no doubt you will have a bunch more questions.
Secondly, there are numerous threads on science madness with near endless options for primaries that you can try depending on what you are trying to achieve.
Thirdly, you may find that you do not get much of a response to this post because a) you don't come across as having done much research already to try and answer these questions for yourself, b) you have not included information in your post about what you are trying to achieve and c) no one wants to give you information that you use to accidentally injure yourself or someone else.
You might like to consider giving some context around these questions:
- What is it that you are studying about primaries?
- How do you do this safely/demonstrate a satisfactory level of competence?
- What options do you have for initiation?
- What research/tests have you done so far and what specific information are you lacking and trying to find?
Finally, as you have already indicated, TATP is not a great choice. TATP is volatile and comparatively sensitive to most stimuli (heat, spark, shock and friction). It also present little challenge or interest in its synthetic route.
It can be fun to see the fruits of your chemical labour go up in a cloud of smoke or with a loud report, but loosing digits, eyes or worse is no fun at all. Stay safe.
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DennyDevHE77
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[*] posted on 30-10-2023 at 22:18


Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
but tatp is an awful choice..


You don't have to be so categorical. Yes, indeed, acetone peroxide has a number of problems, the main ones being high volatility, crystal growth and increased sensitivity, as well as high sensitivity to friction and static. But it compensates for this by being extremely cheap and easy to make. As a result, it is the best initiating explosive when nothing else is available, and the finished detonator primer is not expected to be stored for more than a couple of weeks. Although I am generally against storing ready-made detonator caps on acetone peroxide. It is better to store it in powder form on a piece of paper and not prevent it from evaporating.

Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
is silver acetilyde a good choice? the VOD is low


The detonation velocity of silver acetylenide-nitrate is 4450 m/s at 5.36 g/mL, and 2710 m/s at 2.92 g/mL. This is slightly less than lead azide, but it is not correct to compare initiating explosives on the basis of detonation velocity. These substances are supposed to be used to detonate secondary explosives, and here the area of transition to detonation has a much greater influence than the velocity itself. Acetone peroxide in the form of a small mound of powder simply flashes when ignited, sometimes with a slight pop, while lead azide, for example, detonates. Although acetone peroxide is more powerful than lead azide, and in the case of large detonators for low-sensitivity explosives, say 5g, acetone peroxide will definitely be more effective (but don't do so unless absolutely necessary, given that you have PETN, you don't have such a need).

Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
and i dont very understand the chemical difference between it and the double salt


The difference between silver acetylenide (Ag2C2) and the complex (Ag2C2•AgNO3) is very large. The first substance does not involve any use. It is much more sensitive than acetylenide-nitrate, can explode already during pressing, much weaker (On a 0.75mm lead plate from an explosion of 1-2 g of pure silver acetylenide, a weak dent remains, while silver nitrate-acetylenide penetrates it, and the hole is larger than the diameter of the detonator capsule body), and its initiating properties are lower than Ag2C2•AgNO3 in addition, when in contact with organic substances, it becomes very sensitive to impact and compression.

While the complex (Ag2C2•AgNO3) is less (or similarly, depending on the manufacturing method) sensitive to shocks than lead azide (from 43 to 79 cm for a load weighing 500 g), lead azide - 43 cm, mercury fulminate - 24 cm. Also, Ag2C2•AgNO3 is almost similar in initiating ability to lead azide (for Ag2C2•AgNO3, 0.02g for tetryl, 0.03-0.1 g for picric acid, 0.15-0.05 for TNT, lead azide is almost the same) in general, it does not matter, you are unlikely to hit less than 0.2-0.3 g, Ag2C2•AgNO3 is stored for a long time, although, of course, it is not as heat-resistant.

Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
people complaining about its explosive properties


NHN is a good primary explosive, but it has its own nuances in manufacturing (a good agitator is needed), plus, like any primary explosive for safe detonators, it requires proper pressing (from 25 to 60 MPa), at 30Mpa 0.15 g (lead azide 0.03) for PETN. But again, no one usually presses less than 0.2. And you also need the right detonator, that is, you will not be able to fill it as azide, you will need to properly seal it (ideally fill it with epoxy).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPxdDSUGxo4 - correct synthesis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN1eK4Oyd04 - the right detonator

Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
advice me any other primary


It's hard to advise something if the criteria are unknown. In home manufacture, reagents are still most often needed. From their presence, it immediately becomes clear what is available to a person. For example, maybe you have silver (or its salts), but no access to acetylene. Then you can make silver fulminate, it is more powerful than mercury fulminate and less sensitive (if properly manufactured, again). In general, there is too much to advise.

[Edited on 31-10-2023 by DennyDevHE77]

[Edited on 31-10-2023 by DennyDevHE77]
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[*] posted on 31-10-2023 at 00:56


If you have copper wire, ammonia water and ammonium perchlorate, you can ditch all those primaries. And make TACP and its upgraded version CHP. They will require metal tubes for detonators to work properly, but they are safe and really powerful.
SADS is a bit on weaker side, but it's good point is ability to detonate in very small amounts, thus high reliability.
NHN is rather unreliable alone, but can be easily upgraded with sodium chlorate and a bit of soap. Look up recent thread about that composition by user papaya, some real blast




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Achilles
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[*] posted on 31-10-2023 at 12:10


Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  
I think you are confusing detonator and primary. What you describe in the second line of your post is some primary and secondary explosive. If you have put them together under some sort of confinement with a means to initiate them you have made a detonator.
Firstly, I would recommend checking out the science madness library and do some reading on energetic substances and you will find that some of these questions may be answered and no doubt you will have a bunch more questions.
Secondly, there are numerous threads on science madness with near endless options for primaries that you can try depending on what you are trying to achieve.
Thirdly, you may find that you do not get much of a response to this post because a) you don't come across as having done much research already to try and answer these questions for yourself, b) you have not included information in your post about what you are trying to achieve and c) no one wants to give you information that you use to accidentally injure yourself or someone else.
You might like to consider giving some context around these questions:
- What is it that you are studying about primaries?
- How do you do this safely/demonstrate a satisfactory level of competence?
- What options do you have for initiation?
- What research/tests have you done so far and what specific information are you lacking and trying to find?
Finally, as you have already indicated, TATP is not a great choice. TATP is volatile and comparatively sensitive to most stimuli (heat, spark, shock and friction). It also present little challenge or interest in its synthetic route.
It can be fun to see the fruits of your chemical labour go up in a cloud of smoke or with a loud report, but loosing digits, eyes or worse is no fun at all. Stay safe.
.



thanks for the advices about the post and the information, im new here and most of the primaries i read on this forum i couldn’t find much information all the patents videos were deleted and the links weren’t working so yea
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[*] posted on 31-10-2023 at 12:11


Quote: Originally posted by DennyDevHE77  
Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
but tatp is an awful choice..


You don't have to be so categorical. Yes, indeed, acetone peroxide has a number of problems, the main ones being high volatility, crystal growth and increased sensitivity, as well as high sensitivity to friction and static. But it compensates for this by being extremely cheap and easy to make. As a result, it is the best initiating explosive when nothing else is available, and the finished detonator primer is not expected to be stored for more than a couple of weeks. Although I am generally against storing ready-made detonator caps on acetone peroxide. It is better to store it in powder form on a piece of paper and not prevent it from evaporating.

Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
is silver acetilyde a good choice? the VOD is low


The detonation velocity of silver acetylenide-nitrate is 4450 m/s at 5.36 g/mL, and 2710 m/s at 2.92 g/mL. This is slightly less than lead azide, but it is not correct to compare initiating explosives on the basis of detonation velocity. These substances are supposed to be used to detonate secondary explosives, and here the area of transition to detonation has a much greater influence than the velocity itself. Acetone peroxide in the form of a small mound of powder simply flashes when ignited, sometimes with a slight pop, while lead azide, for example, detonates. Although acetone peroxide is more powerful than lead azide, and in the case of large detonators for low-sensitivity explosives, say 5g, acetone peroxide will definitely be more effective (but don't do so unless absolutely necessary, given that you have PETN, you don't have such a need).

Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
and i dont very understand the chemical difference between it and the double salt


The difference between silver acetylenide (Ag2C2) and the complex (Ag2C2•AgNO3) is very large. The first substance does not involve any use. It is much more sensitive than acetylenide-nitrate, can explode already during pressing, much weaker (On a 0.75mm lead plate from an explosion of 1-2 g of pure silver acetylenide, a weak dent remains, while silver nitrate-acetylenide penetrates it, and the hole is larger than the diameter of the detonator capsule body), and its initiating properties are lower than Ag2C2•AgNO3 in addition, when in contact with organic substances, it becomes very sensitive to impact and compression.

While the complex (Ag2C2•AgNO3) is less (or similarly, depending on the manufacturing method) sensitive to shocks than lead azide (from 43 to 79 cm for a load weighing 500 g), lead azide - 43 cm, mercury fulminate - 24 cm. Also, Ag2C2•AgNO3 is almost similar in initiating ability to lead azide (for Ag2C2•AgNO3, 0.02g for tetryl, 0.03-0.1 g for picric acid, 0.15-0.05 for TNT, lead azide is almost the same) in general, it does not matter, you are unlikely to hit less than 0.2-0.3 g, Ag2C2•AgNO3 is stored for a long time, although, of course, it is not as heat-resistant.

Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
people complaining about its explosive properties


NHN is a good primary explosive, but it has its own nuances in manufacturing (a good agitator is needed), plus, like any primary explosive for safe detonators, it requires proper pressing (from 25 to 60 MPa), at 30Mpa 0.15 g (lead azide 0.03) for PETN. But again, no one usually presses less than 0.2. And you also need the right detonator, that is, you will not be able to fill it as azide, you will need to properly seal it (ideally fill it with epoxy).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPxdDSUGxo4 - correct synthesis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN1eK4Oyd04 - the right detonator

Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
advice me any other primary


It's hard to advise something if the criteria are unknown. In home manufacture, reagents are still most often needed. From their presence, it immediately becomes clear what is available to a person. For example, maybe you have silver (or its salts), but no access to acetylene. Then you can make silver fulminate, it is more powerful than mercury fulminate and less sensitive (if properly manufactured, again). In general, there is too much to advise.

[Edited on 31-10-2023 by DennyDevHE77]

[Edited on 31-10-2023 by DennyDevHE77]



aaaah so the info i found weren’t accurate on Ag2C2 thanks for helping
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[*] posted on 31-10-2023 at 12:12


Quote: Originally posted by EF2000  
If you have copper wire, ammonia water and ammonium perchlorate, you can ditch all those primaries. And make TACP and its upgraded version CHP. They will require metal tubes for detonators to work properly, but they are safe and really powerful.
SADS is a bit on weaker side, but it's good point is ability to detonate in very small amounts, thus high reliability.
NHN is rather unreliable alone, but can be easily upgraded with sodium chlorate and a bit of soap. Look up recent thread about that composition by user papaya, some real blast


again AP.. i dont have it i just have KClO4
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[*] posted on 31-10-2023 at 19:10


Quote: Originally posted by Achilles  
Quote: Originally posted by EF2000  
If you have copper wire, ammonia water and ammonium perchlorate, you can ditch all those primaries. And make TACP and its upgraded version CHP. They will require metal tubes for detonators to work properly, but they are safe and really powerful.
SADS is a bit on weaker side, but it's good point is ability to detonate in very small amounts, thus high reliability.
NHN is rather unreliable alone, but can be easily upgraded with sodium chlorate and a bit of soap. Look up recent thread about that composition by user papaya, some real blast


again AP.. i dont have it i just have KClO4


You can make some ammonium perchlorate from potassium perchlorate if you have ammonium sulfate/sulphate

http://www.chlorates.exrockets.com/ammper5.html

This guide should be of help.

As for me, I need to mention that I experimented with composite detonators with plastic bodies that didn't work well with NHN, even with NHN and ETN the report was lackluster... but I did set off one 1.2g melt-cast ETN with 0.3g powdered ETN and 0.5 NHN and it was POWERFUL. Albeit I did not test it with a witness plate.

As others have mentioned. I am experimenting with mixing NHN with some chlorates and soap. I have made 2 metal detonators with around 0.9g (I wanted 1, but some was lost due to mechnical grinding and such) of 6:4 NHN:NaClO3 and soap and another 2 from 7:3 NHN:KClO3 but with no soap and dry mixed.

I am really itching to see what happens, and to try out another one of my big detonators with a witness plate. I am really hoping for some decent results.

Quote:

NHN is a good primary explosive, but it has its own nuances in manufacturing (a good agitator is needed),


By agitator I assume you mean the chlorates, correct? I also heard that some manufacturers have mixed it with aluminum powder with great results. But I have no information on the ratios or the process in which it was made.
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[*] posted on 1-11-2023 at 01:30


Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests  

again AP.. i dont have it i just have KClO4 [/rquote]

You can make some ammonium perchlorate from potassium perchlorate if you have ammonium sulfate/sulphate

http://www.chlorates.exrockets.com/ammper5.html

This guide should be of help.

In fact, TACP can be made with almost any more soluble perchlorate, like NaClO4 (confession: I used LiClO4, lol, I knew it was idiotic waste from my side, but at least I made something not hygroscopic)

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests  

Quote:

NHN is a good primary explosive, but it has its own nuances in manufacturing (a good agitator is needed),


By agitator I assume you mean the chlorates, correct? I also heard that some manufacturers have mixed it with aluminum powder with great results. But I have no information on the ratios or the process in which it was made.

Highly likely is that "agitator" means "good stirring setup", like magnetic stirrer.




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[*] posted on 1-11-2023 at 16:24


Quote:
Highly likely is that "agitator" means "good stirring setup", like magnetic stirrer.


Oh that. Of course. I was stirring my freebased hydrazine while heating it to 60C and continued to let stir strongly (with a magnetic stirrer of course) as I added the warmed nickle nitrate solution (with dextrin added).
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[*] posted on 2-11-2023 at 01:45


I don't think it is desirable to add dextrin when making NHN. In my experience at least, NHN does not form large crystals the way LA does, so I don't see what advantage the dextrin would provide.
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[*] posted on 2-11-2023 at 20:39


Quote: Originally posted by EF2000  

Highly likely is that "agitator" means "good stirring setup", like magnetic stirrer.


Yes, I meant the magnetic stirrer.
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[*] posted on 3-11-2023 at 12:34


Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  
I don't think it is desirable to add dextrin when making NHN. In my experience at least, NHN does not form large crystals the way LA does, so I don't see what advantage the dextrin would provide.


My first successful batch of NHN was done without dextrin and I guess it just needed a bit more grinding to make it a fine powder. The good thing about NHN is that it is so insensitive to friction that there is next to no danger from grinding it. Of course utmost precaution must be taken in all steps, but my choice of NHN (given it is the first energetic described in the exotic primaries thread) was based a lot more due to insensitivity and stability than anything else. It is a fine initiating primary as is, but with the chlorate and soap additive it should be enough for just about everything.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2024 at 00:31


Just a question to ponder. I grew large crystals of TATP for fun. Many crystals simply burned up, with a noticeable pop. But a few crystals detonated (up to a strong ringing in the ears). But at the same time, this detonation showed almost no breezability. There was not a single trace on the wooden table or on the linoleum after detonation. Lead azide in the same conditions left a strong dent. And this is despite the fact that the direct destructive power (sand test) at TATP is twice as much.

Which got me thinking.

1) How can detonation produce such low power?
2) Why can TATP detonate at all? It is known that acetone peroxide can overpressurize, if I'm not mistaken, at a density of 1.222. And single crystal has a density of 1.272. So, in theory, such acetone peroxide should not be able to detonate.

1704699793390.jpg - 2.5MB

[Edited on 8-1-2024 by DennyDevHE77]

IMG_20240108_123128_533.jpg - 78kB
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[*] posted on 8-1-2024 at 16:50


Quote: Originally posted by DennyDevHE77  
Just a question to ponder. I grew large crystals of TATP for fun. Many crystals simply burned up, with a noticeable pop. But a few crystals detonated (up to a strong ringing in the ears). But at the same time, this detonation showed almost no breezability. There was not a single trace on the wooden table or on the linoleum after detonation. Lead azide in the same conditions left a strong dent. And this is despite the fact that the direct destructive power (sand test) at TATP is twice as much.

Which got me thinking.

1) How can detonation produce such low power?
2) Why can TATP detonate at all? It is known that acetone peroxide can overpressurize, if I'm not mistaken, at a density of 1.222. And single crystal has a density of 1.272. So, in theory, such acetone peroxide should not be able to detonate.



[Edited on 8-1-2024 by DennyDevHE77]


I must say you got far more balls than me to try that with TATP. I never made any peroxide based energetic and it is unlikely that I ever will.

Energetics can be weird and unpredictable. There is a reason why Darian Ballard said in his HMTD synthesis video that while on paper, TATP has a higher VOD, in reality HMTD is the superior initiating explosive by far. I think that in the 1943 book Chemistry of Powder and Explosives they mention HMTD as being superior to mercury fulminate and somewhat more superior than lead azide. With a table indicating that in a reenforced cap (not sure what is) it only took 0.08 gram to detonate TNT, with only 0.05 grams needed to set off 40% nitroglycerin dynamite.

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[*] posted on 8-1-2024 at 21:05


Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests  
while on paper, TATP has a higher VOD, in reality HMTD is the superior initiating explosive by far.


This is something I've mentioned before in this thread.

Quote: Originally posted by DennyDevHE77  
and here the area of transition to detonation has a much greater influence than the velocity itself. Acetone peroxide in the form of a small mound of powder simply flashes when ignited, sometimes with a slight pop, while lead azide, for example, detonates. Although acetone peroxide is more powerful than lead azide, and in the case of large detonators for low-sensitivity explosives, say 5g, acetone peroxide will definitely be more effective


The HMTD has a narrower pre-detonation section. Lead azide transitions to detonation even faster on ignition. This is what determines the effectiveness of the primary explosive as a primary explosive.

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests  
a reenforced cap (not sure what is)


It's a special metal cup, it reduces the outflow of gases and so helps the combustion
the combustion to detonation. A quality cup can significantly reduce the amount of primary explosive. For example, HMTD in a paper cup can detonate from 150 mg. In a copper cup from 4 mg. Another thing is that it does not always make sense to bother with it.

scale_1200.jpg - 10kB

4 is the reinforced cup, 5 is the mesh, 6 and 7 are layers of styphnate and lead azide

But I was referring to something different with TATP above. Namely, a number of primary explosives (including TATP) have a dead-pressing effect, that is, at a certain density, the burn-to-detonation time becomes so long that the primary loses its ability to detonate from a beam of fire (but it can still detonate from other effects).

For TATP, this effect occurs at a pressing density of 1.222. That is, at this density in a cylindrical case, TATP would simply burn up like rocket fuel. Monocrystal TATP has a density of 1.272, and in theory it cannot detonate, but for some reason it did. Although without destructive effect.


[Edited on 9-1-2024 by DennyDevHE77]
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[*] posted on 8-1-2024 at 23:27


It is well known that many primaries can detonate from the breaking of large crystals. It is possible that what you are seeing is the crystals burning and then breaking (perhaps due to thermal stress). This might cause detonation directly, or maybe the exposed surface area accelerates the combustion leading to DDT (if it breaks like tempered glass maybe). This is all pure speculation.
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[*] posted on 9-1-2024 at 01:04


Quote: Originally posted by DennyDevHE77  

1) How can detonation produce such low power?
2) Why can TATP detonate at all? It is known that acetone peroxide can overpressurize, if I'm not mistaken, at a density of 1.222. And single crystal has a density of 1.272. So, in theory, such acetone peroxide should not be able to detonate.

Maybe this is incomplete truth. And in reality, the DDT of highdensity AP has a large value, but not infinite.
The low power of small single crystals is caused with a partial combustion before detonation.
Although, I do not remember low power this. Try burning 50-mg single crystal of AP:))

I experimentally observed an increase in DDT with an density increase of small crystalls, but did not observe a dead pressing at hand densities.
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